St. John of the Cross and Emptying the Mind

[DBT]

Question: should Contemplative Prayer involve an active mind where we focus ALL our attention to our listen for God. OTOH, it seem like many Saints went into more of a passive trance to commune with God. Which state should we strive for?

A prime example of a trance-like state comes from Saint Thomas Aquinas:

On 6 December, 1273, he laid aside his pen and would write no more. That day he experienced an unusually long ecstasy during Mass; what was revealed to him we can only surmise from his reply to Father Reginald, who urged him to continue his writings: “I can do no more. Such secrets have been revealed to me that all I have written now appears to be of little value.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas

Robert -
This is an example of infused contemplation similar to what St. Teresa shows in mansion 6 of Interior Castle. I would not concern yourself too much with it for this is a type of contemplation we can’t “do.” It is a gift God may or may not give.

Stick to the things discussed in this thread and the other one on The Cloud and you’ll be on safe and secure ground.

Dave

 

[DBT]

MS -

Nobody gets more frustrated (and tired) of these discussions than me. I do it, though, to encourage the many well intentioned souls who so frequent these discussions and to keep the naysayers at bay.

To me the matter is simple. If posters can be convinced through intellectual sounding quotes from the saints and doctors that all contemplation is infused then everything that is said in threads like this is wrong. At best posters are misguided … at worst they’re heretics. So slow down, stop what you’re doing and stick with your meditation. In short, go against grace.

But of course not all contemplation is infused … so the entire premise is wrong to begin with. And the particular challenge for me is that the writings of the saints of my order are often used as the club to keep people down. That saddens me to no end.

Dave

 

[christofirst]

MS -

Nobody gets more frustrated (and tired) of these discussions than me. I do it, though, to encourage the many well intentioned souls who so frequent these discussions and to keep the naysayers at bay.

To me the matter is simple. If posters can be convinced through intellectual sounding quotes from the saints and doctors that all contemplation is infused then everything that is said in threads like this is wrong. At best posters are misguided … at worst they’re heretics. So slow down, stop what you’re doing and stick with your meditation. In short, go against grace.

But of course not all contemplation is infused … so the entire premise is wrong to begin with. And the particular challenge for me is that the writings of the saints of my order are often used as the club to keep people down. That saddens me to no end.

Dave

Thank you for your contributions here, again.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

MS -

Nobody gets more frustrated (and tired) of these discussions than me. I do it, though, to encourage the many well intentioned souls who so frequent these discussions and to keep the naysayers at bay.

To me the matter is simple. If posters can be convinced through intellectual sounding quotes from the saints and doctors that all contemplation is infused then everything that is said in threads like this is wrong. At best posters are misguided … at worst they’re heretics. So slow down, stop what you’re doing and stick with your meditation. In short, go against grace.

But of course not all contemplation is infused … so the entire premise is wrong to begin with. And the particular challenge for me is that the writings of the saints of my order are often used as the club to keep people down. That saddens me to no end.

Dave

You are awesome and I’m so glad you know all the technical stuff because to these people with their scholarly battles lined up, I am but a crazy avatar on the Internet saying stuff they’ve never heard so it is suspicious, or have “been warned” by some Chicken Little the prayer is something we can only get right if we get an advanced degree in Doing It Right. Kind of like how many college credits do I need to be qualified to know how to rest, or that I need a drink of water. Simple stuff, ya know.

It’s always convenient to argue on behalf of authors who aren’t in the room because they cannot defend the context in which their words are being applied.

I don’t know very much except enough to have carried me through a very convincing Dark Night experience, clear to the last stanza where it’s all so beautiful now. And people who may never benefit from this type of freedom, refuse to even consider there is something better than their same old same old habits. So without you to fend off the demons that use others to attack Christian prayer, I would be helpless around many of these people because all they do is have to throw some words out and insist I speak using their terms. Well you can reach those people; the only ones I have a chance with are those who don’t mind considering someone without an imprimatur has something useful to say based on experience. I’m just the “by gosh and by golly” guy.

Maybe the part I feel sad about, is the number of people who spread gossip and fear about trifles, in order to vaccinate the Body of Christ against accepting simple truths over scholarly treatments. Funny thing; can you imagine today, a Catholic finding more truth in a poverty area with a baby in a horse trough, than in powerful kings and scholars? That’s ridiculous; nobody would do that, right? There are two I can think of, both St. Francis and now Pope Francis, who thankfully are helping us find our way back to simplicity, before False Selves gained critical mass and civilizations of them were born.

 

[Richca]

Hi Richca -

My posts in this thread treat St. John of the Cross as we teach it in Carmel. When speaking specifically of The Ascent, I do not agree that the contemplation presented there is infused (or at least primarily so). Yes, as you say, The Ascent is about the active nights. And this includes his treatment of contemplation … which we are calling here in this thread acquired contemplation and/or active recollection. The Dark Night, John’s counterpart to The Ascent, treats the purification of intellect/will/memory from the passive point of view. And there his treatment of contemplation is infused.

… once in The Ascent and once in The Dark Night. In both places he describes “loving attentiveness” as the description of contemplation. But in The Ascent it is a loving attentiveness we can do and enter into of our own accord (acquired) whereas in The Dark Night the loving attentiveness is passively received (infused).

Thanks DBT again for the post. I understand your point but I do not agree with it. In my view, in the Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II, chapters 12-15, where St John talks about the signs for proceeding to contemplation, he is talking about infused contemplation, the beginnings of the passive night of the senses. He specifically says the loving knowledge here which is contemplation is passively received and communicated to the soul by God. This corresponds to his doctrine in the Dark Night and in the rest of his works.

In chapter 15, St John does appear to make a statement that one can almost enter at will into the state of contemplation. Apparently, St John is of the opinion that when contemplation begins at least for some souls, a habit of contemplation is formed or God produces the habit in the souls, and when these souls go to prayer, they immediately notice the loving knowledge and enter into the state of contemplation. This makes sense because God does not force contemplation on us, we need to consent with our will and cooperate with God’s action, for we do have free will. This is a supernatural knowledge so it is not something we can procure by our own powers. The statement St John makes concerning beginners or those being introduced to the contemplative way (chapter 15) entering at will into the state of contemplation, I think has to be interpreted according what else he says in chapters 12-15. I do not believe he is writing about active recollection here according to what else he says in the chapters here as well as in the Dark Night. Supposing he was writing about active recollection which in my opinion doesn’t seem to fit with what else he says in these chapters such as a passive communication from God, he is not very clear on it as was St Teresa. Again, in my view, this is the beginnings of infused contemplation or the passive night of the senses.

It is interesting that St John says that the majority of beginners enter the dark or passive night of the senses, at least those who are fervent in prayer and service to God. He even says that it usually does not take a very long time. The beginnings of infused contemplation though for St John is of a dry or arid type and as he says can be unnoticable by the person receiving it. Although it comes with peace and calm if a person lets themselves be guided by God and not become distracted by the use of the faculties. St John definitely says that the state of contemplation takes the place of meditation.

 

[DBT]

Thanks DBT again for the post.

Thank you too Richa.

So all Carmelite contemplation is infused? All sorts of questions come to mind.

Nothing in their writings that cover that intermediate ground between meditation and infused contemplation that other spiritual writers describe as the prayer of the heart, prayer of simplicity etc?

When Carmelite scholars and Friars speak of the third mansions as the time of acquired contemplation are they wrong to do so? If so, how would you categorize a work like The Cloud of Unknowing? Or the Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence?

Is the teaching of Book 3 of The Ascent on the active purgation of memory and will only applicable in those few fleeting moments when our prayer is actually infused? When John counsels readers to perform certain mortifications as regards memory and will as “a regular matter of habit” does he really mean only during the prayer of quiet or union characteristic of a Teresa? And what if such a soul is never granted such infused prayer in the first place? Are they are under no obligation to perform such mortifications since the teaching does not pertain to them in the first place? What are they to do in that no-man’s land when meditation fails but infused prayer is yet to be granted? Is the loving attentiveness they so yearn for an illusion … worse a profound spiritual error? That there is no need to reign in the “wild horses” of the mind except when our prayer is passive? That it is wrong to apply those teachings of The Ascent to a more generalized understanding of contemplation such as what we see in the CCC where stilling the mind from the distractions that draw us away from the loving gaze of “I look at Him and He looks at me” is something of a prerequisite?

Dave

 

[christofirst]

That’s a really good question. All our lives we are told to “do” things but to attribute our ability to do it, to God.

In case I haven’t already linked it, here is a book they were using for intro to prayer in Kenrick-Glennon seminary. Written by a Jesuit, easy to read and very practical. It takes through four “stages” of prayer and gives a chapter to each one:

1. talking at God (rote prayer)
2. talking to God (personal prayer)
3. listening to God, and
4. Being with God.

It has imprimatur and nihil obstat, and has an audible version read by the book’s author.

Armchair Mystic: Easing Into Contemplative Prayer Paperback – April 1, 2001
by Mark E. Thibodeaux S.J. (Author)

Thanks again, for this recommendation. I also found Fr. Thibodeaux’s book most helpful and encouraging as well. One good turn deserves another, so I will also recommend a book which helped me, as pertains especially to ideas brought up in this thread: Carmelite Prayer; A Tradition for the 21st Century, edited by Keith Egan. I found the essays of Ernest Larkin here particularly encouraging, admittedly because he supports the ways of prayer to which I have long been drawn.

books.google.com/books/about/Carmelite_Prayer.html?id=e348yPiBIP4C

That said, I appreciate all of the views expressed here, even those I do not quite understand or agree with, especially the recent civil discussion going on between DBT and Richca.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Thanks again, for this recommendation. I also found Fr. Thibodeaux’s book most helpful and encouraging as well. One good turn deserves another, so I will also recommend a book which helped me, as pertains especially to ideas brought up in this thread: Carmelite Prayer; A Tradition for the 21st Century, edited by Keith Egan. I found the essays of Ernest Larkin here particularly encouraging, admittedly because he supports the ways of prayer to which I have long been drawn.

books.google.com/books/about/Carmelite_Prayer.html?id=e348yPiBIP4C

That said, I appreciate all of the views expressed here, even those I do not quite understand or agree with, especially the recent civil discussion going on between DBT and Richca.

Thanks for the idea. I just added it to my Kindle library.

 

[DBT]

Christofirst, my apologies if what I said in any of these recent posts caused you (or anyone else) unease or prompted you to question how you are being led by the Holy Spirit in the ways of prayer. Discussions like this probably come across like the clerics of old … debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Anybody who knows anything about contemplation knows first-hand how utterly simple it is. And they probably also know deep down that theological speculation is the very antithesis of contemplation.

As mentioned, my concern is that the presentation of Carmelite spirituality is being so narrowly defined as to close the door on the very souls in this thread who seek their answers from those teachings. Certainly what has been said recently is not how my brothers and sisters in the Order live and breathe this stuff.

But I’m not asking anyone to take my word for it … and I’ve probably already said too much on the subject anyway. So I will simply point readers directly to the CCC:
III. CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER:

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: “Contemplative prayer oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us.”

Here we find St. Teresa’s famous description of mental prayer. For anyone who knows anything about Carmelite spirituality, this is a decidedly non-infused way of prayer. Yet the CCC calls it contemplation anyway.

I don’t know what else needs to be said than that.

Understanding how the Church views the writing of Carmel opens up whole new vistas on how we can understand those very teachings and validate what we know from personal experience and simple intuition. Certainly we should not question all the wonderful discussions in this thread pertaining to St. John of the Cross and “emptying the mind.” Without doubt there is a type of contemplation we can “do.” The Church shows it. The Carmelite Order shows it. And anyone drawn to such prayer knows it through simple desire. For as John and Teresa both say … this very desire is to have the possession of Him.

So my advice to anyone being led this way - and who are also mindful of the proper time and place to enter into this prayer – is to heed the wisdom of that famous ad slogan of old: “Just do it.”

Dave

 

[christofirst]

Christofirst, my apologies if what I said in any of these recent posts caused you (or anyone else) unease or prompted you to question how you are being led by the Holy Spirit in the ways of prayer. Discussions like this probably come across like the clerics of old … debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Anybody who knows anything about contemplation knows first-hand how utterly simple it is. And they probably also know deep down that theological speculation is the very antithesis of contemplation.

As mentioned, my concern is that the presentation of Carmelite spirituality is being so narrowly defined as to close the door on the very souls in this thread who seek their answers from those teachings. Certainly what has been said recently is not how my brothers and sisters in the Order live and breathe this stuff.

But I’m not asking anyone to take my word for it … and I’ve probably already said too much on the subject anyway. So I will simply point readers directly to the CCC:

Here we find St. Teresa’s famous description of mental prayer. For anyone who knows anything about Carmelite spirituality, this is a decidedly non-infused way of prayer. Yet the CCC calls it contemplation anyway.

I don’t know what else needs to be said than that.

Understanding how the Church views the writing of Carmel opens up whole new vistas on how we can understand those very teachings and validate what we know from personal experience and simple intuition. Certainly we should not question all the wonderful discussions in this thread pertaining to St. John of the Cross and “emptying the mind.” Without doubt there is a type of contemplation we can “do.” The Church shows it. The Carmelite Order shows it. And anyone drawn to such prayer knows it through simple desire. For as John and Teresa both say … this very desire is to have the possession of Him.

So my advice to anyone being led this way - and who are also mindful of the proper time and place to enter into this prayer – is to heed the wisdom of that famous ad slogan of old: “Just do it.”

Dave

No apology necessary! As I’ve said before, I appreciate all you’ve said here.

Prayer, and specifically for this thread, the message of St. John of the Cross, obviously mean a great deal to many people here, and with differing opinions, passions and confusion can often rise to the surface. I always find your posts to be both intelligible (no small feat when it comes to getting through to me) and most of all, very charitable .

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thanks DBT again for the post. I understand your point but I do not agree with it. In my view, in the Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II, chapters 12-15, where St John talks about the signs for proceeding to contemplation, he is talking about infused contemplation,

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

So my advice to anyone being led this way - and who are also mindful of the proper time and place to enter into this prayer – is to heed the wisdom of that famous ad slogan of old: “Just do it.”

Yes! Just do it. :hey_bud:

It’s impressive how much fear and confusion can prevent this simple prayer from becoming widespread.

Sometimes I think if most Catholics practiced contemplative prayer, they might start asking uncomfortable questions. Who knows but that “resting in silence” may end up coming across as “subversive” to church and/or state.

 

[DBT]

“resting in silence”

It is interesting you mention that phrase because for the first time today I noticed the CCC quotes St. John of the Cross in addition to St. Teresa. What does he call contemplation? Silent love.

Here’s the passage …
CCC 2717:

Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13

Here is St. John in direct context for this CCC passage:
Maxims and Counsels:

What we need most in order to make progress is to be silent before this great God with our appetites and our tongue (in other words emptying the mind in the manner of this thread), for the language He best hears is silent love.

So 2 of the 11 CCC passages on contemplative prayer quote Carmelites … neither of which need to be understood as infused.

Dave

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

In 2001, my first ever SD told me about it on my first or second visit. He called it “resting in God.”

I altered the phrase to target it for what I wanted to throw into the discussion.

Yes it’s funny how much synchronicity has been going on lately; it keeps me guessing and out of my more “agnostic” modes.

Fr. Pecht was a Redemptorist, but soon after I started with him he got sick and went to Ligouri to the hospital. Last I heard a couple years ago, is that he had recovered and was acting as chaplain of the hospital now, at age 86 or something. :dancing:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Yes! Just do it. :hey_bud:

It’s impressive how much fear and confusion can prevent this simple prayer from becoming widespread.

Sometimes I think if most Catholics practiced contemplative prayer, they might start asking uncomfortable questions. Who knows but that “resting in silence” may end up coming across as “subversive” to church and/or state.

It might lead one to probe deeper than words can go, beyond the simple answers that seem so comfortable.

 

[DBT]

I thought it might be helpful to take a stab at trying to describe a little bit about the distinctions between acquired and infused contemplation since this can be such a confusing and difficult to explain subject.

Let’s start with St. John of the Cross’ 3-signs mentioned several times in this thread:
St John of the Cross–Maxims and Counsels #40:

There are three signs of inner recollection: first, a lack of satisfaction in passing things; second, a liking for solitude and silence and an attentiveness to all that is more perfect; third, the considerations, meditations, and acts which formerly helped the soul now hinder it, and it brings to prayer no other support than faith, hope, and love.

The word “recollection" is quite telling because it can be understood from both an acquired and infused point of view. To be recollected is to be present to the Lord. To be attentive is to “gather in” our faculties in order to be more wholly present. In short, we’re talking about distractions. When we are actively striving to reign in distractions (in the manner of this thread) our recollection can be said to be acquired. When God does the stilling (puts the distractions to sleep in the manner of St. Teresa) our recollection is infused. That’s the basic distinction between the two ways of prayer.

So what does all this have to do with meditation? And by this we are referring to things like praying the rosary or doing lectio. Father Marc Foley, OCD in his wonderful book “The Ascent of Mount Carmel – Reflections” has this to say about what such an individual feels:
Ascent of Mount Carmel-Reflections:

I can’t meditate. I don’t want to meditate. All I want do do is sit quietly in God’s presence

Pretty straight forward and easy to understand. Importantly, this feeling may be just an every now and then type of thing … or it might be the general condition of the soul more or less all the time. Each of us is different in this regard. Equally important, this state of the soul is neither acquired or infused in of itself. It is simply a statement of the general inclination of the soul and how we feel drawn to pray.

So what is this prayer like … to sit quietly in God’s presence? Here Father Foley gives the classic explanation:
Ascent of Mount Carmel-Reflections:

The soul’s attitude that should be adopted in contemplative prayer may best be illustrated by the following story. St. John Vianney once asked an old peasant, who frequently sat quietly before the Blessed Sacrament, “what do you do when you sit there?” The peasant responded, “I look at Him, and He looks at me, and we are happy.”

This is the loving and peaceful attentiveness of St. John of the Cross’ wonderful descriptions of contemplation … simply stated as mutual looking. To gaze at each other in silent wonder and awe.

So how can we tell if this “looking” is acquired or infused?
Ascent of Mount Carmel-Reflections:

Sometimes this loving and peaceful attentiveness is the result of God holding our attention. This is when prayer tends to be more passive (receptive) than active

In other words, our mind is not distracted at the time of prayer … but we didn’t have to do anything to be that way. We simply look at the Lord and we naturally find ourselves wholly present to Him because He is acting in us supernaturally. This is infused contemplation. St. Teresa describes the experience of this as the temporary suspension of thoughts in whole (prayer of union) or in part (prayer of quiet). St. John of the Cross simply calls it the loving inflow of God. In either case, we find our mind “emptied” of all mental considerations in this time of simple, loving attentiveness. Looking is all we can do … or want to do.
Ascent of Mount Carmel-Reflections:

At other times, this attentiveness requires some effort on our part and we will need to aid ourselves to enter into this state.

This, of course, is acquired contemplation where we need to make efforts on our own to still our minds in order to enter into the loving attentiveness of St. John.

And how do we do this? In short, we put into practice all the things discussed throughout this thread. Again, Father Foley wonderfully summarizes St. John’s teaching:
Ascent of Mount Carmel-Reflections:

John does not give a list of “aids.” This is where we have to fill in the blanks. The best advice I can give is to use what you find to be helpful to sustain your awareness of God during prayer. No two people pray alike. Some people will find it helpful to simply reapeat a single word, such as Jesus, God or Love. Others are helped by forming an image in their minds. And some people find visual aids, such as icons or some sacred image or sitting before the Blessed Sacrament to be the most beneficial.

Regardless of the means, the goal should be the same. “We should learn to remain in God’s presence with a loving attention and a tranquil intellect” (Ascent 2.15.5) To learn is to acquire through practice and discipline. In short, that’s what this thread has been all about.

I hope something in here helps,
Dave

 

[DBT]

Ok, I’m probably talking way too much but I thought of one more illustration that might help. It occurred to me that since we’re using some of John’s terms interchangeably (active/passive = acquired/infused) it could be creating confusion. Hopefully this explanation will help.

In John’s teaching, grace is God’s gift to us. And our relationship to grace can only be passive … we simply receive it. However, grace demands a response. Thus, our actions - what we do or don’t do - is what’s considered the active component.

The problem is these discussions is that we too often give the impression that this active/passive interaction is sequential or linear. For example, we experience the active night of sense followed by the passive night of sense then the active night of spirit and finally the passive night of spirit. Or, in the case of Teresa, mansion 1 begets mansion 2 then 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. Practical experience, however, shows that active/passive considerations are clearly interrelated and often occur simultaneously in us.

Father Foley gives this wonderful example to illustrate:
The Ascent of Mount Carmel – Reflections:

John writes that “the dark night is an inflow of God into the soul … which instructs us in the perfection of love without the soul doing anything or understanding how it happens” (Dark Night 2.5.1) For example, in the midst of a conversation with a coworker, you are tempted to respond with a cruel or catty remark. The remark is on the tip of your tongue when a feeling deep inside you says, “Don’t!” This feeling is God instructing you in love without you doing anything or understanding how it happens. It just seems to happen. This is an experience of God inviting you to fast from evil. The choice to bridle your tongue is your active response.

And so it is with contemplation. God creates in us the desire to simply “be” with Him in a state of loving attentiveness. We didn’t do anything in particular to bring this about … it is simply the way we feel. This feeling or inclination, in John’s terminology, is what’s infused … all we can do is passively receive it. But, as mentioned, grace always demands an active response and it’s these very responses that make our contemplation acquired. For example, we seek solitude frequently, lessen our practice of meditation, empty the mind in the manner of this thread, strive to be more recollected and pray as our heart instructs us … “I look at Him and He looks at me."

And in the manner of The Cloud of Unknowing or the Practice of the Presence of God, this acquired contemplation slowly over time becomes habitual … perhaps becoming our only way of prayer. And God, seeing our faithfulness to grace, may then intervene even further and grant us the infused contemplation so wonderfully described by St. Teresa as the prayer of quiet and union. This, of course, is an even deeper grace which can only be passively received. Yet it too invites an active response … to be even more faithful in all things: detachment, the practice of virtue and fidelity to prayer to name just a few.

Perhaps God will be so pleased with our continued active responses that He’ll intervene yet again and give us the passive trials associated with John’s treatment of the Dark Night of the Soul, the purpose of which is to rid us of the final imperfections remaining in us that prevent the fullness of our union with Him. And this too elicits an active response … but here it is of the utmost simplicity. We simply cooperate with God’s purifying action in the fullness of “Your will be done.”

Active/Passive … acquired/infused. It is the loving way of God and soul from beginning to the end. We can’t have one without the other.

Dave

 

[Richca]

Thank you too Richa.

So all Carmelite contemplation is infused? All sorts of questions come to mind.

 

[Richca]

Is the teaching of Book 3 of The Ascent on the active

 

[DBT]

Thank you Richca for the very thoughtful reply. By and large I think we’re saying pretty much the same thing. As is often the case in these discussions, the proliferation of terms and their various meanings can at times cloud the issue more than clarify. But now I have a much better understanding of where you’re coming from. Thanks again.

Blessings,
Dave