St. Louis Archdiocese statement regarding Fr. Marek Bozek and St. Stanislaus Parish

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ernesto,

How about:

Canon Law says so.

Archbishop Burke says so.

The Vatican says so.

How much more do you need to simply obey?
 
You don’t need to ask me to obey.

You need to ask the people who have sacrificed for their parish at St. Stan to surrender their financial assets…

I was under the impression that the current church teaching is that we should follow our conscience and the invisible head of the church, Christ, before following His church government on earth… Christ and his Church are not interchangeable (are they?)… Can we say “Christ changed his mind about St. Stan- now their assets are up for grabs” because that’s the latest from the Vatican and canon law?

Again, I’m just raising questions- which the church seems to have no answer for-

Why is it morally right for the church to renig on its deal and confiscate St. Stan’s assets?

On the other hand, why is it okay for the church to keep Spokane parishes ‘out of the loop’ to protect assets?

Again, “Because the Church government says so” lacks moral authority for most, I think with good reason…
 
Is money more important than obedience?
The archbishop’s last offer in the talks was to guarantee in writing that St. Stanslaus would remain open as long as it produced the revenue to pay its bills. The money it now holds would be placed in a special account to be used only for the parish, the archbishop has said.
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No other St. Louis Church was given such promises. This is not about money. It is about power / pride.

Our pride produces disobedience, Adam and Eve are perfect examples.
 
ernesto,

I was not asking you to obey…it was directed at the St. Stan’s parish.

Again, those are NOT their assets. Money, time, talent or tressure given to the Church belongs to the Church and to the Lord. Everything we have is God’s not ours. Every stich of clothing, every penny we have, even the air we breathe all belongs to our Lord, not to us. We are merely stewards of God’s gifts and those parishioners need to remember that gifts given have no ownereship tags on them.

I answered your question about morality before. Yes, it is perfectly moral for the Church to take control of a parish. They never had a written deal after the 1917 Canon Law and if you study history you will see that the Church has always attempted to control its assets, which are really the Lord’s assets. Beyond that, the Church has a right to make changes in the wqay it administers the Church, the people are called to obedience–period. Again, Canon Law, Archbishop Burke and the Vatican all declare that the parish must give up control. What do they need before they will obey? Do they believe that the Church acts with duvine guidance, or not? Do they accept the teachings of the Church, or not? I would argue that you are asking the morality questions about the wrong party. I think St. Stans parishioners are being unspeakably immoral when they give gifts to the Church and expect personal ownership in return and when they are told by Canon Law, their Archbishop and the Vatican that they must obey and yet still ignore all that. It seems like some very prideful people have their grips on that parish.

My opinion on the St. Louis versus Spokane scenarios is this: I don’t think it is moral for the government to allow entire parishes to be under liquidation because “some” Priests commited grave sin. The Church should have to pay the victims a reasonable settlement, but some of the lawsuits threaten to completely erase entire parishes. There is no balance in those awards in judgments. As horrible as the abuse was, it is even worse to make thousands of people potentially lose their faith and their souls. Yet, that is the state of things. I do agree that Canon Law needs to be followed everywhere…period.
 
Breaking today- the St. Stan. board and Fr. Bozek have been excommunicated… for money

All because they wouldn’t cough up their financial assets to Church government. Money they raised to save their parish.

Interesting how the diocese had no interest in St. Stan. 40 years ago, when the parish was barely surviving financially.

This makes the Archbishop look especially bad.

In my opinion, there’s no way the church can spin this…
 
ernesto,

Reverse your spin. If St. Stans was suffering financial trouble, no-one would care that the diocese was taking it over. It is because the parishioners want to hold onto something that is not there’s that this matter is even news.
 
It is not about the money.
The archbishop’s last offer in the talks was to guarantee in writing that St. Stanslaus would remain open as long as it produced the revenue to pay its bills. The money it now holds would be placed in a special account to be used only for the parish
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, the archbishop has said.

They were excummunicated because of pride working through disobedience.
 
Well Abp. Burke surpressed the parish in his statement. He talks of reconciliation, but now there is NO possibility. He must surely know that they will never return with this action.

I don’t understand why in an effort at reconciliation he would not allow a Polish priest to serve the Polish people of the parish. I’ll bet the Vietnamese and Spanish parishes in his diocese have ethnic priests. the board was willing to turn over control (from their documents), however, it seems that a Polish priest was a major hang up.

I am utterly disgusted and saddened. The board was wrong, but I expect the Church to act with complete integrity in fact and appearance. This did not happen in this case, I pray for all of their souls.
 
The lay members of the Church can help the Church: through obedience and prayer. We should all pray that the parishioners demand their board comply, and that the Archbishop uses their money wisely. TJPCatholic was right: Either you believe the Church is divinely inspired, and thus believe the Apostle’s creed, or you don’t. Jesus only founded one Church. There are other Christians, but none with even close to the fulness of truth as the Catholic faith. This is clear through my research, and through guidance from the Holy Spirit. If you believe that Jesus founded only one true Church, and that all other one’s are merely concessions He gave in His infinite mercy to those who wanted to pick and choose what to follow, then would Jesus allow an erroneous heirarchal structure exist for 2000 years? Would He choose now to take away the authority of the Bishop over his diocese just because of this controversy? If so, why not back when lay people wanted to follow gnostic heracies in the first and second centuries? This truly is a problem with looking at this through and American lense. The Church’s heirarchy is valid because we know we have inherited a perfect Church. It is perfect, even in imperfection because Jesus was perfect and He said he’d let the weeds grow with the crops. Even if there are bad Catholics, it is His will, just as in the case of Judas, and His will is perfect. So even if the people at St. Stanislaus are afraid the Archbishop might do something. Even if he does. They are all Catholic because they believe in the One True Church. That is a faith that has eternal implications. Why sacrifice that for a political/money issue, unless you never had the faith to begin with?
Campred with eternity, what is even a thousand years? Nothing.
 
This quote from Saint Francis de Sales sums it up:

“But I’m here among you to prevent something far worse for you. While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy their faith — are guilty of spiritual suicide.”

Whatever the diocese feels scandalized about–let it go! Its a testament to how little they value the life-giving Sacraments such as Eucharist and Reconciliation that they would risk giving them up for such a minor thing. They should be spending time in adoration and praying, not causing us to write about something so trivial. Even so, these people’s souls are not trivial. The best place for them is the Church. If they leave it, it is like a peasant leaving the protection of the city walls in war time. They’ll be on their own.
 
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Lurch104:
the board was willing to turn over control (from their documents), however, it seems that a Polish priest was a major hang up.
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Lurch104 :tiphat:

We do need to pray for all those involved with this dispute. Lord please send us Your Mercy.

My question is why do they get to decide what priest they get? If they are willing to turn over control and obey, then why would it matter what priest you have? Is one’s salvation more important than power?

Arch-bishop Burke has handled this dispute with gospel like charity.

Matt.18
15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
 
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johnq:
Arch-bishop Burke has handled this dispute with gospel like charity.
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It appears that is the case. We pray to support him… and we pray for repentance of those who have pride.

By the way… just curious when posters talk about the money… just how much money is it that the parishioners first gave and have accumulated… and now claim it is still theirs??
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_8_10.gif
 
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johnq:
Lurch104 :tiphat:

We do need to pray for all those involved with this dispute. Lord please send us Your Mercy.

My question is why do they get to decide what priest they get? If they are willing to turn over control and obey, then why would it matter what priest you have? Is one’s salvation more important than power?

Arch-bishop Burke has handled this dispute with gospel like charity.

Matt.18
15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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Many in the parish speak only Polish. The priest that the Abp assigned was not polish and did not speak Polish. How can a priest minister to his flock if he does not speak the language? A polish religious order in full communion with Rome has offered to minister to the parish…the Abp. has refused. From reading his diocesan website, he has Vietnamese parishes and Spanish parishes, but he will not support a Polish parish.

Let me clarify, he will allow a Polish speaking parish, but not a Polish speaking priest. For what it is worth, after he removed the Polish parish designation from St. Stans, he assigned a polish speaking priest to the “New Polish parish”.

Tell me again about Gospel charity.
 
First time on this one. I’ve read the posts and links but I’m a little confused. maybe somebody could point me in the right direction.
  1. What exactly was going on? Was the parish being shut down completely and why were the assests being seized? Lack of attendance, poor management, no need for a Polish Language Church, what?
  2. Is this church the only one in it’s situation, being governed as it were not by the Diocese but by the Board of Trustees?
  3. Why was the Bishop so interested in it?
  4. Why was the Board so opposed to the Diocese having control? Pride, greed, what?
I’m just trying to understand how this thing escalated to where it is and why it happened in the first place.

Thanks for any info anyone cam give me. fascinating times we live in.
 
Some very interesting insights and valid differences of opinion here. I would like to offer some general thoughts. I sympathize with the St. Stanislaus parish, and the dillema they have before them, but the fact remains that they are not in communion with the Bishop of the Diocese of St. Louis, and therefore not in communion with Rome. That is simply fact. And, without there being in communion with the church, they are not catholic (in the legal sesnse anyway). This is what separates us from Protestants…our obedience and submission to authority. Jesus himself was obedient to his human parents and to the human authority of the Jewish church. Who are we to be any different?

I pray for two things. First, I pray that an end can be brought to this scandal (look up that concept in the Catechism, because that is exactly what this is), so we can all move on in communion. The other thing I pray for is that people not turn this into a smear campaign where everyone is pointing fingers, because I’m certain that all involved parties are convinced they are acting in good conscience.
 
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joshua_b:
I pray for two things. First, I pray that an end can be brought to this scandal (look up that concept in the Catechism, because that is exactly what this is), so we can all move on in communion. The other thing I pray for is that people not turn this into a smear campaign where everyone is pointing fingers, because I’m certain that all involved parties are convinced they are acting in good conscience.
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Well said. Hopefully all parties can somehow still come together and avoid further scandal.
 
I would find it easier to accept the Church’s actions if they would make a statement along these lines…

“We’re doing our best. In the 19th century, we allowed certain parishes financial autonomy and the ability to choose their priests. Today we are taking that power back from St. Stanislaus. On the other hand, we are allowing some parishes- as in Spokane, WA- to continue in that tradition. We need St. Stan’s money, and we need to protect Spokane’s assets from lawsuits. We need the money to use for __________ (here the Church fills in the blank). As the scripture says in Samuel, there is no one like God. Unlike God, the Church government makes mistakes, and we have to take action to rectify those mistakes…”

Until we see some humility from Church leaders, why should they expect apologies and humility from others…?
 
I can certainly appreciate your response, and please don’t think I am taking a “holier than thou” stance on this, but first off, it has already been stated that St. Stanislaus’ assets would be preserved exclusively for that parish and out of the hands of the diocese.

I’m certainly not a scripture scholar, but all I can think of is the passage of the gospel where Jesus says in regard to the hypocritical Pharisees “Do what they say, but not as they do”. I just feel so strongly about the church, and I feel that the submission to authority is the only real thing that separates us from Protestantism. Submission (this is my FEELING not my argument) means obedience even when we don’t feel like it or agree with it or understand it. Please dont think I’m trying to convince you or anyone else; I’m just giving my subjective analysis.
 
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