St. Louis Archdiocese statement regarding Fr. Marek Bozek and St. Stanislaus Parish

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TPJCatholic:
Baldwin,

Please do not attend “services” at St. Stan’s, you will be in mortal sin if you do so.
I guess I did go a bit overboard here…my Polish nationalism does get the best of me sometimes. I did not attend St. Stan’s on Christmas Eve…thank you for your prayers.

God Bless & Merry 2nd Day of Christmas,

Baldwin
 
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cainem:
do you not think this disobedient parish have not made this situation awkward for the local bishop and clergy with their wilfull disobedience?
Yes indeed, I do agree on this point. It is sad…
 
I weighed-in earlier with hopes that His Excellency the Archbishop of St. Louis would find some way to arrive at a peaceable solution with St. Stanislaus which did NOT constitute a ‘victory’ for either side, but a win/win solution satisfying the needs of all. Over and over, posters kept insisting that the legalities were all on the side of His Excellency Archbishop Burke and that because the RCC is ‘not a democracy’ it fell to the parishioners of St. Stan’s to submit or else. It was unthinkable to the persons who interacted with me that anything other than a win/lose or a lose/lose solution could or should be explored.

Some comments here. I am not a Roman Catholic. Obviously, my ecclesiology is a tad different–I don’t think the Church is a democracy, per se, but neither is it an autocracy. Those charged as shepherds of the flock ought not to use their positions to lord it over their charges, but IMHO should bear in mind that they are ‘servants of the servants of Christ’–a turn of phrase coined by a Roman Catholic, btw. This said: I like the strong leadership that Archbishop Burke has brought to the Archdiocese of St. Louis. It’s a shame that ECUSA has for decades lacked leadership with the cojones (I choose the term advisedly, fully mindful of it’s politically-incorrect, gender-exclusive implications) to have put a stop to the various and sundry shenanigans that have left the Anglican movement in shambles.

I still believe that His Excellency should have done more to be a peacemaker rather than a divider on this issue, over which no pressing issues of orthodoxy immediately presented themselves. Since the public concerns of the parish were that the Archdiocese sought it’s assets as a way of off-setting the costs of Archdiciesan legal settlements and judgements due to liabilities incurred by wayward priests; AND since the parish further feared that the compromises proposed by the Archbishop did not place their parish assets beyond the reach of future adverse legal judgements; AND since the parish (wrongly im my private view) made His Excellency’s desire to exert his authority an issue, one compromise could have been as follows.

His Excellency could righly and justly insist that the St. Stanislaus Board of Directors re-affirm their allegiance to his authority within the Diocese and promising full feasance to his perogatives within his own Archdiociese. (One of the perpheral issues which brought things to a head had something to do with a unilateral action by the Board regarding a priest, undertaken without consultation with or consent by the Archbishop). In turn, His Excellency would ensure that St. Stanislaus would be appropriately served by priests capable of doing justice to an ethnic Polish parish. (Again, the Archbishop contributed to some of the ill-will in this whole affair by assigning one or more priests to the parish who did not even speak the Polish language). Finally, His Excellency could issue a decree, to which the parishioners would have to be signatory, obliging the parish to relinquish all of it’s assets to the Archdiocese no later than December 31, 2016–approximately 99 years after the parish was given the privilege of it’s peculiar status within the Archdiocese; and presumably long after His Excellency will have completed his tenure as Archbishop of St. Louis; and long after the current legal issues plaguing the American RCC should have been resolved. In turn, the Archdiocese would pledge to sustain St. Stanislaus as a Polish parish with Polish-speaking priests, so long as the parish was economically self-sustaining and retained it’s ethnic character.

I write this two days following the first celebration of Mass by Fr. Marek Bozek and not quite a fortnight, I think, since His Excellency has excommunicated Fr. Bozek and the St. Stanislaus Board. Whether anything to heal the breach can be done now along lines such as those I suggest here is difficult to say. Had I been in His Excellency’s shoes I think I would have awaited the actual celebration of the Mass–perhaps even the end of Christmastide-to have issued the decree of excommunication. (I would have issued warnings that it was nonetheless gravely sinful to receive communion from a priest who was acting in disobedience against his rightful superiors and without faculties). At this point some further measures of public penance on the part of the parish, the Board, and Fr. Bozek would be needful, I would think. I do nonetheless hope that as this is the season where angels once proclaimed ‘Peace on earth, good-will towards men’ that some sort of peaceable resolution can yet be found among people of good will.
 
flame,

Your post was very well though out and you made some interesting suggestions. It seems to me from reading everything from the parish side that they had no intentions on moving at all towards any real compromise and I do not think Archbishop Burke would extend the agreement to beyond a time that he would be in the diocese…he does not strike me as a man who would pass such serious problems off to a future Bishop.

One has to remember that Archbishop Burke has more than one parish to worry about and many more souls then those at St. Stan’s to concern himself with. The act of excommunicating a person is not a message to the person being excommunicated as much as to the lay Catholics who are still in communion. It is a faithful act that is a teaching event. He is saying to his entire diocese (and to many other dioceses) that schism will not be tolerated abd that schism brings mortal sin. No real believing Catholic wants to ever be in mortal sin, nor do they want to be outside of the very community they need to absolve them of that mortal sin. In the past excommunication was seen as the worst thing that could happen to a person, even Kings feared being excommunicated because people were faithful and believed it harmed their souls to be outside Holy Mother Church.

Frankly, none of this is terribly surprising because very few Catholics take the sacraments seriously these days. Something like seventy-percent of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and less then ten-percent of Catholics go to confession regularly. If a person does not take the sacraments seriously, then they will not care if they do not receive the sacraments validly, nor will they accept that they are in mortal and in need of absolution. That seems to me to be where St. Stan’s is today…they do not take the faith seriously…imo.
 
No building, not even a beautiful Catholic Church is worth the prideful actions involved in a schism. That is plainly prideful, much in the way that Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. There was nothing inherently wrong with the fruit, much like there is nothing inherently wrong with St. Stans. Much good could come from a piece of fruit, as could come from St. Stans. But, in the end, disobedience was chosen for both. God will stand by Holy Mother Church on this. God help those who would defy Her, no matter how noble their cause or emotional the issue.

I will say a Rosary for the conversion of Fr. Marek and the board who have pridefully chosen disobedience over self-sacrificing obedience.

It is very, very misguided behavior and it simply doesn’t matter how good or bad the bishop is. Especially since Rome has provided backing to the Archbishop’s position.

Church closings are a sad reality throughout the US. I’ve often pondered what I would do if that reality came to my beloved, old Assumption Grotto parish. There is nothing wrong with appealing, but there is everything wrong with hanging up one’s faith in a disobedient act to protect a building. Christ did not come down to earth to save buildings, but to save souls.
 
Hi Aurora

I did see the letter in the Mirror from Fr. Hulsoff. I agree that the financial expediture that the Springfield/Cape Girardeau diocese made to bring Fr. Bozek to Missouri is something which should not be discounted.

Of course, in this discussion, the financial sacrifice made by the people of St. Stan’s is totally and completely disregarded. Interesting double standard.

One may get the impression from this discussion that St. Stan should cough up the dough immediately to get back in good standing with Christ. But it’s easy for us to tell St. Stan parishoners how they should sacrifice…
 
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TPJCatholic:
When God gave the ten commandments, were they up for discussion…
I think that the numbering of the ten commandments is up for discussion, as one can see if one compares the Roman Catholic enumeration with the enumeration given by other Churches. The RCC has thrown out (in the sense that it is not explicitly included) the Commandment against graven images and does not cite it explicitly in its version of the ten commandments, although other Churches have left it in.
 
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ernesto:
St. Stan, living under the rules set up for it by church leaders, has had its priests taken away- despite the money the parishoners were allowed to raise to save their parish. Here the laity is blamed for being ‘uppity’ and as selling their souls.

Fairness seems to be put aside, while jackhammer application of canon law is employed by the Archbishop. Here the Archbishop is celebrated because he’s true to the latest edition of canon law.
Your posts often seem to be working off a caricature of Catholicism. I would hope that before making judgments about the Church you take the time to study what it really teaches rather than relying on media slant and emotionalism.

The above quoted material is a good example of the straw man you’re setting up to argue against. How is this? Well, St. Stan’s was NOT living according to the rules set up by “church leaders.” You mention “the latest edition of canon law” as if the situation is the result of some ecclesiastical whimsy, but it’s already been pointed out a few times early in the thread that the St. Stan’s organizational structure has been illicit since 1917. So that makes 88 years, with another intervening code of canon law. I don’t see anything in your post that does justice to that fact.
 
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ernesto:
Hi Aurora

I did see the letter in the Mirror from Fr. Hulsoff. I agree that the financial expediture that the Springfield/Cape Girardeau diocese made to bring Fr. Bozek to Missouri is something which should not be discounted.
I wasn’t actually talking about the financial costs. I was thinking of Fr. Hulshof’s comparison of Fr. Bozek’s ditching his parish to a married person who decides to ditch his or her marriage after three years. Fr. Bozek made a commitment to the people of this diocese and to St. Agnes in particular. It really, really bothers me that he thought so little of his vows that he could just turn his back on his parish. He’s young, it almost seems like he’s just a kid thumbing his nose at the hierarchy. I hope he and those at St. Stanislaus will come around.
 
Andreas Hofer:
the St. Stan’s organizational structure has been illicit since 1917.
Were there any serious complaints about it from 1917 up until 2004?
 
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joshua_b:
If they refuse to submit themselves to the authority of the bishop of their diocese, then they are indeed Protestant. Without submission to the authority of the church, they are NOT Catholic in any sense of the word. …
What I wonder about here is why is it OK for the bishop to refuse to submit himself to the rule of the Vatican regarding sex-change operations? Would that make the Bishop Burke a Protestant, since he does not abide by the rules of the Vatican on this issue?
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=19829
 
give yourself a shake stanley you got one thread shut down due to your allegation about the archbishop and the nun, your in the wrong over st stanleys and your very wrong in your attempt to slander this man of god, we know you gave up on being catholic with your stance over st stans, but there is no need to give up in being christian with your postings thank you
 
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mikew262:
Well said. However, don’t leave the Catholic Church based on you disagreeing with some of it’s doctrine. I don’t agree with all of it either, and neither do alot of other Catholics. However, I can’t imagine being anything other than a Catholic. I think it comes closest to what Jesus intended his church to be. Is she perfect? No, but I think she is the best choice.
Slightly off topic, but why be Catholic if you do not believe ALL the doctrine proposed by the Church for your belief? If the Catholic Church is infalliable (as she claims) with regard to faith and morals, then by default, your disagreement with the Church over certain doctrine proves that you are the one in error. If however the Catholic Church is not actually infalliable with regard to faith and morals although she claims to be, then the Church is either seriously deceived and deluded (if she doesn’t know that she is not really infallible) or a liar (if she does know that she is not really infallible but claims to be). Either of these latter scenarios would disqualify the Catholic Church from being the best choice.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
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irenaeus1:
Slightly off topic, but why be Catholic if you do not believe ALL the doctrine proposed by the Church for your belief? If the Catholic Church is infalliable (as she claims) with regard to faith and morals, then by default, your disagreement with the Church over certain doctrine proves that you are the one in error. If however the Catholic Church is not actually infalliable with regard to faith and morals although she claims to be, then the Church is either seriously deceived and deluded (if she doesn’t know that she is not really infallible) or a liar (if she does know that she is not really infallible but claims to be). Either of these latter scenarios would disqualify the Catholic Church from being the best choice.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
Ok, lets be realistic here. If all the catholics of the world decided not to be catholic anymore because they might disagree with 1 or more of it’s doctrines, the church would be very tiny indeed.
 
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mikew262:
Ok, lets be realistic here. If all the catholics of the world decided not to be catholic anymore because they might disagree with 1 or more of it’s doctrines, the church would be very tiny indeed.
As Catholics it is our DUTY to not lead other Catholics to believe it is OK to pick and choose the Doctrines you want to believe. Such a belief is false.Since obedience to the Magestriom is requirment of our Church those Catholics who choose to ignore doctrines they dont like have already seperated themselves from the Church. The TRUE Church is smaller than you think.
 
It’s been established that this isn’t really about money. Perhaps it’s about power.

It’s definitely about obedience.

I believe that if St.Stan’s wants to be a part of the RCC, it must obey its leaders.

Yet, I am troubled by something I heard on St. Louis radio by a St. Stan’s representative. He maintained that Catholics must obey Church leaders when it comes to issues of faith/morals. Not obedience with anything. He stated that if a church representative, for example, came to a Catholic’s door and demanded that the Catholic turn over keys to his house in the name of obedience, a Catholic was not obligated to do so.

So the question is: is St. Stan’s (and therefore all Catholics) obligated to obey all ecclesiastic demands? What if the demands are beyond the Church’s authority? Can canon law be wrong in this case?
 
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estesbob:
As Catholics it is our DUTY to not lead other Catholics to believe it is OK to pick and choose the Doctrines you want to believe. Such a belief is false.Since obedience to the Magestriom is requirment of our Church those Catholics who choose to ignore doctrines they dont like have already seperated themselves from the Church. The TRUE Church is smaller than you think.
So you, w/o a doubt, firmly believe in every doctrine the church has and always adhere to them? If so and you are being truthful, then I’m happy for you.

BTW, I disagree with you on your statement concerning folks already being separated from the church, just because they may not faithfully follow a certain doctrine of the church. The ultimate judge on that is God, and I don’t believe anybody has the ability to read his mind.
 
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monina:
It’s been established that this isn’t really about money. Perhaps it’s about power.

Yet, I am troubled by something I heard on St. Louis radio by a St. Stan’s representative. He maintained that Catholics must obey Church leaders when it comes to issues of faith/morals. Not obedience with anything. He stated that if a church representative, for example, came to a Catholic’s door and demanded that the Catholic turn over keys to his house in the name of obedience, a Catholic was not obligated to do so.
Its a false analogy-the Church does not own your house so you would be under no obligation to turn it over. The diocese owns all Church Property in the Diocese. The Courts have affirmed this numerous times.

St Stans representatives have affirmed again what is evdient to all that have followed this-they consider themselves St Stans members first-Catholic Second. The fact that they have led a Priest into serious sin and caused him to be ex-communicated is a sad reflection of this Churc’s priorities.
 
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mikew262:
So you, w/o a doubt, firmly believe in every doctrine the church has and always adhere to them? If so and you are being truthful, then I’m happy for you.

BTW, I disagree with you on your statement concerning folks already being separated from the church, just because they may not faithfully follow a certain doctrine of the church. The ultimate judge on that is God, and I don’t believe anybody has the ability to read his mind.
You are not diasgreeing with me-you are disagreeing woth the Church. Christ founded our Church so we wouldnt have to read Gods mind. What you and others have done is reject the one true Church , the Church founded by Jesus Christ. You and others have decided that you can be the arbitrator of what is TRUTH-not the Church. When you do so you have left the Church. You may very well still go to Church ans still recieve Sacraments but you have seperated yourself from the Church just as surely as Martin Luther did.
 
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estesbob:
You are not diasgreeing with me-you are disagreeing woth the Church. Christ founded our Church so we wouldnt have to read Gods mind. What you and others have done is reject the one true Church , the Church founded by Jesus Christ. You and others have decided that you can be the arbitrator of what is TRUTH-not the Church. When you do so you have left the Church. You may very well still go to Church ans still recieve Sacraments but you have seperated yourself from the Church just as surely as Martin Luther did.
Well, I disagree with you, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, you are judging me, which you have no right to do. I’m comfortable with my standing in the church and with God, and that’s what really matters.
 
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