St. Louis Archdiocese statement regarding Fr. Marek Bozek and St. Stanislaus Parish

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shades of gray:
Archbishop Burke has called the parishioners of St. Stanislaus “satan”. How can Archbishop honestly say he prays for a reconcilliation when he publicly calls them “satan”?
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Quote your source. Please no slander.
 
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estesbob:
You can always tell when a discussion about the Authority of the Church has reached the absurdity stage. Thats when those who question its authority start playing the Crusades /inqusition/etc cards.I could engage you a discussion of these topics that would probably show you are as ignorant about them as you are of the importance of obeying the Church. But it would be a waste of time. You have decided to disobey the Church and are now trying to rationalize it.

BTW-I dont agree with the Goat/ Sheep analogy. I dont debate with you to “save your soul”. I question you because i know that by picking and choosing what teachings you will adhere to you are denying yourself the joy of enjoying the full richness of our Faith. I also know the great pain and suffering i caused myself and others during those times when I thought I too knew better than the Church,
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Ok, I offered a olive branch in my next post, but you’ve decided to get insulting and nasty by calling me ignorant. Being catholic is about love and charity as well as some of the other things we’ve discussed. Remember that. Its more than just following the rulebook. :tsktsk:
 
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estesbob:
You can always tell when a discussion about the Authority of the Church has reached the absurdity stage. Thats when those who question its authority start playing the Crusades /inqusition/etc cards.I could engage you a discussion of these topics that would probably show you are as ignorant about them as you are of the importance of obeying the Church. But it would be a waste of time. You have decided to disobey the Church and are now trying to rationalize it.

BTW-I dont agree with the Goat/ Sheep analogy. I dont debate with you to “save your soul”. I question you because i know that by picking and choosing what teachings you will adhere to you are denying yourself the joy of enjoying the full richness of our Faith. I also know the great pain and suffering i caused myself and others during those times when I thought I too knew better than the Church,
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Perhaps the line of reasoning brought up involves the leaders of the church being examples of mistaken actions that from time to time to time involve matters that have nothing to do with doctrine or dogma.

Unfortunately, the energy expended to defend the right of church leaders to be wrong , like in the abuse cases with B16 in his prior role as defender of abuse secrets, detracts from the question of why poor behavior is tolerated.

Peace
 
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mikew262:
Ok, I offered a olive branch in my next post, but you’ve decided to get insulting and nasty by calling me ignorant. Being catholic is about love and charity as well as some of the other things we’ve discussed. Remember that. Its more than just following the rulebook. :tsktsk:
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But you have rejected the rulebook-at least those portions you dont like. And Im sorry-but to drag your false perceptions of the Crusades and the Inqusition into the discussion displays your ignorance about Church History.

This is not a matter BTW, of being a “conseravitve” or “progressive” Catholic-those terms are meningless withinn our Church. We are talking about whether one is Catholic. Berng Catholic mens adhering to the teachings of the Church. Whenever I hear someone claim to be a “progressive” Catholic the alarm bells start going off.

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mikew262:
Well, I disagree with you on both of these points and you are not budging and neither am I. Obviously you are a conservative catholic, I’m somewhat more progressive (but not overly so). Discussion is good and disagreement is ok too. Even theologians and clergy within our own catholic church disagree on things. No harm, no foul.

We may disagree on these points. However, I suspect we agree on alot more stuff than we disagree on. I’ve seen you post on other threads and I’ve agreed with the majority of what you said.
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No you diagree with the CHURCH on these points. And that is the disticntion you seem to be missing.
 
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estesbob:
But you have rejected the rulebook-at least those portions you dont like. And Im sorry-but to drag your false perceptions of the Crusades and the Inqusition into the discussion displaysvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvva “conservvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvavitve” or “progressive” Catholic-those terms are meningless withinn our Church. We are talking about whether one is Catholic. Berng Catholic mens adhering to the teachings of the Church. Whenever I hear someone claim to be a “progressive” Catholic the alarm bells start going off.

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I haven’t rejected anything. What portions have I rejected? Yes, I disagreed with the Archbishops’s actions, so have alot of other folks. I also said that I would’ve submitted vs risking excommunication.

Since you fancy yourself a catholic historian, set me straight on the Catholic church’s role in the above events. If you prove me wrong, I’ll admit it. Throughout history the church has it’s share of ugly moments, to say otherwise is just closing your eyes.

Ok, while I’ve seen the terms “progressive and conservative” catholics used in other discussions, I’ll admit it’s not official church language. These are my interpretations. Conservative: Nothing changes, we do things the way we always have, no matter what. Progressive: Realizes times and conditions change, in order to keep the church alive and vibrant, certain changes are necessary as long it doesn’t violate any of Christ’s direct teachings. Vatican II was an example of needed change, although some catholics would disagree it was a good change.

I probably lean more towards conservative, but I also don’t have blinders on, within the next 20 yrs some things better change or our church is going to continue to shrink. I don’t know about your church or area, but there are alot of empty seats in the churches around here.

Talking to and challenging our church leaders on certain things is a good thing. We are in a fight my friend, not only against losing our folks to other demominations, but against the secular forces in this country. If you disagree, you’d better wake up and face reality.

I’ve been a catholic for over 50yrs and will die one. Personally I’m a little sad that our church doesn’t have the luster it once had. However, I’ll stay faithful to it and pray it has the wisdom to do what it needs too to survive.

Ok, I’ve rambled a little bit and gotten off subject, but your asserted accusations of me being ignorant and not being loyal to my church set me off a little bit.

Try coming down off your stack of catechism books for a minute and try to comprehend what I said.
 
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estesbob:
LOL-well thats how most of my discussions with my Daughter ends ,so we’ll leave it at that!
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“Whatever” in this sense means you are too stubborn to see my position on things or have a reasonable discussion without getting insulting and petty. I tired of it.
 
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mikew262:
I haven’t rejected anything. What portions have I rejected? Yes, I disagreed with the Archbishops’s actions, so have alot of other folks. I also said that I would’ve submitted vs risking excommunication.

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You havent??? then what did you mean by this:
“Well said. However, don’t leave the Catholic Church based on you disagreeing with some of it’s doctrine.** I don’t agree with all of it either, and neither do alot of other Catholics**. However, I can’t imagine being anything other than a Catholic. I think it comes closest to what Jesus intended his church to be. Is she perfect? No, but I think she is the best choice.”
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You stated you rejected doctines of the Church and told another poster it was OK to do so.

So did i read this wrong?
 
mikew262 said:
“Whatever” in this sense means you are too stubborn to see my position on things or have a reasonable discussion without getting insulting and petty. I tired of it.
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Whatever
 
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estesbob:
You havent??? then what did you mean by this:

You stated you rejected doctines of the Church and told another poster it was OK to do so.

So did i read this wrong?
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This poster was thinking about leaving the church because he disagreed with some doctrine. I was trying to keep him in. I told him, ok you may not agree with everything, but the Catholic Church is the true church and to stick with it. Ok, I did say I don’t agree with 100% of everything either, alot of catholics don’t. I wasn’t specific on what I disagreed with however. I’ll give you this one.

What would you have told him, if you can’t agree with everything, leave? Please, don’t be a missionary!

Better to keep this person in the church versus losing him.
 
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mikew262:
Thank you!!
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I believe Mr. Oliver was referring to you as well as the rest of us, but I won’t bicker on this point. Back to topic…
 
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mikew262:
This poster was thinking about leaving the church because he disagreed with some doctrine. I was trying to keep him in. I told him, ok you may not agree with everything, but the Catholic Church is the true church and to stick with it. Ok, I did say I don’t agree with 100% of everything either, alot of catholics don’t. I wasn’t specific on what I disagreed with however. I’ll give you this one.

What would you have told him, if you can’t agree with everything, leave? Please, don’t be a missionary!

Better to keep this person in the church versus losing him.
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I beleieve we may be arguing about semantics. There are Doctrines I dont “understand” but that does not mean I reject them. I just have to study and pray so i can see why the Church is teaching what they are teaching. This is what I tell those who tell me they “disagree” with a Doctrine. I tell them that often times when people reject a doctirine they are rejetcting the doctrine based on their incorrect understanding of what the Doctirne is. The Churchs teachings on Homosexualtiy and Contraception, for instance, are two of the most misunderstood areas of our faith, IMO. Study and prayer is the answer.

If the preson truly has rejected a doctirne of a Church, however, we have already lost them.
 
Final warning: If the bickering does not stop, suspension(s) will be in order. The current discussion is off topic and belongs in another forum. If you wish to continue, please open a thread elsewhere. After spending nearly two hours this morning cleaning up the St. Stans threads, my patience is wearing thin and having had my previous warning ignored is pushing things just a little too far. If you suddenly find that you are unable to post, don’t say you weren’t warned.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Walt
 
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Catholic29:
I believe Mr. Oliver was referring to you as well as the rest of us, but I won’t bicker on this point. Back to topic…
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I know that.
 
I apologize for my part in this. It was not my intention to get into a running verbal battle with one person, although unfortunately, it degenerated into that. I’m sorry everybody.
 
The funny thing is, I think they both agree on 90% of their ideas. The part where Mike leaves Catholic and I, is codling people who always threaten to leave. We need to tell them to study and pray, but do not reject. The Church is perfect. Not just the faith. The Church. It is perfect because it is the one that Jesus founded. The Church does mess up, but there are reformers in the Church who reform through becoming more like Jesus. There are reformers. Then there are protestors. Protestors will never change the Church. God can still work through them, but they are choosing the less humble, more prideful route to acheiving what they want to accomplish. They are having less faith in Jesus, and it shows. In order to do this, they must say “This isn’t the Church Jesus founded, so I must set up my own.” Their faith becomes way more prideful.
That said, the lay board aren’t even protestors. They are worse, because their cause does not even apear noble. They are bickering over money, and power. Their fans are atheists, protestants, and themselves. They were tested in how they value the protected Truth of Jesus in the Church. Read their Web site. They laugh at the Archbishop for presuming he had power over them to take away the Sacraments. They say “It doesn’t affect us, we are standing strong”. Then they laugh even harder for convincing a priest to dissobey the Church and give them these things they don’t even value as much as their ethnicity. That’s right. The major contention here folks is the Polish Heritage Center they constructed for $2.5 million of their parishioners money, and secular donors. They are afraid their secular donors might demand their money back if the Archbishop takes over. They are afraid the Archbishop might not fund the upkeep of this heritage center, or even sell it. This is about the prideful lay board, who are all now heroes accept in the eyes of the faithful in the Church. For what? They laugh at the power of the Sacraments. They threaten to join a protestant Polish version of Catholicism. Well, if they think that is a good option, then what’s all the fuss over the excommunication? They had plenty warning. They laughed the whole time, knowing they would eventualy get to go on the talk show circuit as America’s heroes. They never did value the Church Jesus founded anyway. Until they do, all we can do is write them heartfelt letters about why they should.
 
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