F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Facts are far from skepticism.
- Status
T
TrueLight
Guest
No she didn’t. In fact we were seated with 2 “traditional women” who nodded meaningfully.
Do traditional Catholics tend to be very much into revelations?
T
TrueLight
Guest
Don’t worry. I don’t.
OP-Don’t waste your time worrying about this stuff. I mean, if you want to, knock yourself out, but your wasting your time just the same.
M
MarkThompson
Guest
Well, St. Malachy was an actual person, who lived from 1094 to 1148. The first historical appearance of the prophecy comes four and a half centuries later, in 1595. St. Bernard of Clairvaux knew Malachy personally and even wrote a biography of him, but neither he nor anybody else ever mentioned Malachy’s prophecy. Presumably, the “prophecy” was all written at the same time, around 1595 when it was suddenly “discovered.” That means that it was written after the earlier of the papacies it discusses, and before everything afterward.
So the entries from Malachy’s time to about 1595 are in many cases quite good, like “Suburran abbot” for Anastasius IV, who, although not an abbot, was at least from Suburra, and “Jerusalem of Champagne” for Urban IV, who was from Champagne in France and served as Patriarch of Jerusalem. This accuracy is what you would expect if the prophecy were written afterward. Like I said, it would be like if I wrote a “prophecy” today about the presidents from Washington to Obama – it would be pretty close, wouldn’t it, since after all it is a hoax and I’m writing it with the benefit of historical knowledge about the presidents and their attributes.
A
ajpirc
Guest
I’m only into private revelations if their approved by the Church. Private revelations are a part of our Catholic heritage, but we really should wait before the Church approves of the revelation before we accept it.
I’m not a supporter of these so called “St. Malachy prophesies.”
S
Solemn_Sheep
Guest
When your end-time could come at any time then there is no real need to focus on these things.
"…it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment…” —Hebrews 9:27
“In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin.” —Ecclesiasticus 7:40
Who cares when the end of the world is going to happen when the end of our world could be tomorrow, tonight, a minute or a second from now?
A
ajpirc
Guest
Aren’t the ones after that accurate though?
T
TrueLight
Guest
Don’t get me wrong. I am not concerned about end times. I just wanted to know if belief in the prophecies is common.
Thanks everyone for all the information!
H
Hesychios
Guest
I have to wonder where you find such people
A
antonivs
Guest
I wish Pope Benedict a long and healthy life, but with only one more Pope on St. Malachy’s purported list we should know soon enough if it was accurate or not.
I am guessing that we will have many more Popes.
I am guessing that we will have many more Popes.
L
laszlo
Guest
According to the ‘prophecy’ either Benedict XVI is the Last Pope, or the next pope will be.
Almost certainly the ‘prophecy’ was a political pamphlet written sometimes the lathe 1500’s. God knows the future, but do not discloses it for us in details.
Almost certainly the ‘prophecy’ was a political pamphlet written sometimes the lathe 1500’s. God knows the future, but do not discloses it for us in details.
R
Robertanthony
Guest
ByzCath,
I found myself absolutely isolated, in a very precarious position, I thought my only escape to avoid further embarassment was a last-ditch attempt at humor. That being said the question is not settled, at least for me, in the same way as, for example, the flat-earth belief is. I’ll wait and see if the next pope conforms in any way, shape or form to what the “prophecy” says. I’ve been aware of it (and thought it was authentic) for about 25 years, and Jharek’s point is well taken, but I’m not ready yet to fully let go of it. Jharek has provided one explanation, yet you could easily find two historians who have dramatically different perspectives on any given historic event, with both having the same sources of information about it.
C
ChadS
Guest
This is not simply a matter of interpretation though. What you said is true enough if both historians are using the same set of facts and the facts can be verified. The problem with these prophecies is that their first recorded appearance isn’t until several hundred years after the death of the person that supposedly wrote them. To start to cast doubt on this version of history one has to prove that the timeline currently associated with the prophecies is incorrect and that their writing can be placed closer to St. Malachy’s time. It would be interesting to find a reputable scholar that believes in these prophecies while admitting to the timeline problems and finding a way to explain them. Perhaps there is one out there but I doubt it.
ChadS
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I see.
As for this issue, as the Church has not endorsed it I would stay away from it.
Personally I will only consider a private revelation after the Church has ruled that it is worthy of belief. Even after this I will only consider those that fit my spirituality.
M
mburn16
Guest
Just curious - how many here actually accept the prophecy of the Popes as valid? This is really just late night musings…I would personally put myself in the “skeptical” category. Although some of the earlier predictions appear extremely detailed and accurate, the more recent ones have seemed very sketchy - and to my knowledge, the case for Benedict XVI as de gloria oliveine has yet to really be proven.
Seems in keeping with the official viewpoint that they are a late 1500s forgery.
Seems in keeping with the official viewpoint that they are a late 1500s forgery.
M
MarkThompson
Guest
Ironically, Benedict is one of only a tiny number of popes in history to come from a place – Germany – where the olive tree doesn’t grow at all!
I gave my view on this here, among other places, several months ago:
The “prophecies” are moderately accurate up to the time the prophecy was written (the late 16th century), because, of course, those things had already happened. It would be like me writing a “prophecy” about the presidents from Washington to Obama: “Plantation-owning general,” “Statesman from Quincy” and so on.
After that point (when the writer actually was writing about the future), for every one “prophecy” that rounds right, there are about ten that fall into one of these categories:
- So vague they could be about anyone: “Angelic shepherd,” “Intrepid faith,” “Religious man,” etc. Gee, you don’t say! A pope being a religious man! And actually, although some popes were professed religious, Pius VIII was not a member of any religious order, making him technically a secular man.
- Just wrong. Benedict XIII gets “Soldier in war,” but he was neither a soldier nor involved in any war. Clement IX gets “Star of the swans,” with the explanation, “The Italian word for swan, ‘Cigni,’ rhymes with Pope Alexander’s last name, ‘Chigi’.” Uh, no it doesn’t. Cigni is pronounced “Chee-nyee”; Chigi is pronounced “Kee-jee.”
- Prophecies that are “verified” with reasoning like, “well, his brother’s best friend’s mother-in-law knew a guy who came from a family that had a flower on its coat of arms.” So, for example, Gregory XVI gets “From the baths of Tuscany,” even though he was not from Tuscany, never lived there and had nothing to do with it, but he belonged to an order one of whose monastic houses (which he did not live in, btw) was called “Fonte Buono,” which means “good fountain” in Italian – and fountains and baths both contain water, right? Totally the same thing. Likewise, Leo IX gets “Wavy man,” and the best explanation anyone can think of is that he was very briefly (1602-05) cardinal-bishop (an honorary post for a top curial official, not the actual ruling bishop) of Palestrina, a city whose founding was legendarily attributed to Ulysses, who was a sailor (and thus went on the waves). Right, that totally makes Pope Leo a Wavy Man. And Clement XII gets “Lofty column” – although his name was Lorenzo, he was once priest of a church dedicated to St. Peter, and “Peter” come from the Greek word petros which means “rock,” and columns are made of rock, aren’t they?
- Status