St. Paul archdiocese charged over handling of abuse claims

[Abynissa]

Except that the store is the victim. The Church is not the victim in the case of child abuse and has no right to make that decision for the victims. Child abuse is a civil issue and should be handled by the civil authorities.

Except that the store is the victim. The Church is not the victim in the case of child abuse and has no right to make that decision for the victims. Child abuse is a civil issue and should be handled by the civil authorities.

Huh, Unbelievable, last time I checked the U.S. is a democracy not a theocracy and is governed by laws instituted and established by the appropiate bodies from the consent of the governed. Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556 sets out both the criminal and civil penalities regarding child abuse which can amount to criminal felony penalities.

Anyone who knows, has reason to believe, or suspects that a child is being, or has been, neglected or physically or sexually abused. Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 3.

Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 3.
A parent, guardian, or caretaker who knows or reasonably should know a child’s health is in serious danger must report medical neglect. These individuals are subject to criminal penalties for failing to report if the child suffers substantial or great bodily harm or dies for lack of medical care. The criminal law that permits reliance on spiritual means or prayer for health care does not eliminate this reporting duty. Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 6.

Failing to make a required report is a misdemeanor exclusively prosecuted by the county attorney rather than the city attorney, who usually prosecutes misdemeanors. Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556, subd. 6; 388.051, subd. 2, para. (c).

 

[pnewton]

If a crime was indeed committed by the Church, you have to expect that the consequences for the Church would be the same as if Ford Motor Company or Wendys had done the same thing. If that means a fine, then so be it.

I simply do not agree that crime is something non-persons can commit. I do expect the devil do perform his work of attacking the Church. That does not mean I have to accept is as being just. I hope the diocese wins and the prosecutor is ousted the next election. If such a thing happened here, I would put the whole of my resources into opposing them in an election so this mess would be dropped, or so that they would quit taking the lazy way out and target only people who commit crimes so that only criminals are punished, not all the widows who give their mite to charity.

I also know that any Catholic site will have those here that attack the Church in every way possible. That is the nature of the internet.

 

[Dawnia]

Huh, Unbelievable, last time I checked the U.S. is a democracy not a theocracy and is governed by laws instituted and established by the appropiate bodies from the consent of the governed. Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556 sets out both the criminal and civil penalities regarding child abuse which can amount to criminal felony penalities.

Anyone who knows, has reason to believe, or suspects that a child is being, or has been, neglected or physically or sexually abused. Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 3.

Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 3.
A parent, guardian, or caretaker who knows or reasonably should know a child’s health is in serious danger must report medical neglect. These individuals are subject to criminal penalties for failing to report if the child suffers substantial or great bodily harm or dies for lack of medical care. The criminal law that permits reliance on spiritual means or prayer for health care does not eliminate this reporting duty. Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 6.

Failing to make a required report is a misdemeanor exclusively prosecuted by the county attorney rather than the city attorney, who usually prosecutes misdemeanors. Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556, subd. 6; 388.051, subd. 2, para. (c).

And this has what to do with my comment, which apparently was so awesome that you had to quote it twice.

 

[J_Peterson]

Problem is, sometimes police involvement just make things worse, In some cases, handling things ‘in house’ is the better choice, in general, police are secular authorities.

Even today, people joke about the CC and pedophile priests…I agree with the poster above, who mentioned things like this are tactics of Satan…we MUST be able to recognize this when it happens and not call it by a different name.

What if the crime was murder rather than sexual abuse? Would it be better to handle that in house?

I imagine that Satan has a good laugh when we blame him for messes that we humans have created.

 

[Orogeny]

What if the crime was murder rather than sexual abuse? Would it be better to handle that in house?

Or to make an apples to apples comparison, what if a child was raped at the convenience store? Call the police but tell them that it will be handled in-house?

Peace

Tim

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I simply do not agree that crime is something non-persons can commit. I do expect the devil do perform his work of attacking the Church.

I don’t understand why you are quibbling about this point. A corporation has rights and responsibilities almost identical to those of individuals. They can enter into legally binding contracts, defend their interests in court, etc. Read this document for guidelines on how federal prosecutors, for example, view corporations. Whether on not you think corporations can commit crimes, there is a long precedent for corporations being prosecuted for criminal offenses. You are not seriously proposing that all corporations be granted immunity from criminal prosecution, are you?

That does not mean I have to accept is as being just. I hope the diocese wins and the prosecutor is ousted the next election.

Are you in possession of some facts about this case that are not generally known? Then how can you render a judgement on the case?

If such a thing happened here, I would put the whole of my resources into opposing them in an election so this mess would be dropped, or so that they would quit taking the lazy way out and target only people who commit crimes so that only criminals are punished, not all the widows who give their mite to charity.

Are you asking that all the top-level hierarchy including the Archbishop were charged personally instead of the Archdiocese?

 

[Abynissa]

Failure for the county prosecutor to bring prosecution under Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556, subd. 6; 388.051, subd. 2, para. (c). would violate his oath of office to uphold the law.

 

[pnewton]

Are you asking that all the top-level hierarchy including the Archbishop were charged personally instead of the Archdiocese?

If there was evidence of personal illegal activity, yes.

 

[pnewton]

I imagine that Satan has a good laugh when we blame him for messes that we humans have created.

I am sure he would like us thinking that he is not involved in this world very much.

 

[WillyAL]

Oh, and your little comment about this being a nest of vipers shows that you consider them guilty without trial. Not very American of you.

This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen on CAF. You’re questioning the quality of my “American-ness” because I have an opinion about the guilt of a defendant before a jury has rendered a verdict? I suppose you would never do such a thing. OJ? Timothy McVey? Boston Marathon bombers? I’m sure you waited for the jury before you expressed you opinion regarding their guilt or innocence.

 

[jilly4ski]

Huh, Unbelievable, last time I checked the U.S. is a democracy not a theocracy and is governed by laws instituted and established by the appropiate bodies from the consent of the governed. Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556 sets out both the criminal and civil penalities regarding child abuse which can amount to criminal felony penalities.

Anyone who knows, has reason to believe, or suspects that a child is being, or has been, neglected or physically or sexually abused. Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 3.

Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 3.
A parent, guardian, or caretaker who knows or reasonably should know a child’s health is in serious danger must report medical neglect. These individuals are subject to criminal penalties for failing to report if the child suffers substantial or great bodily harm or dies for lack of medical care. The criminal law that permits reliance on spiritual means or prayer for health care does not eliminate this reporting duty. Minn. Stat. § 626.556, subd. 6.

Failing to make a required report is a misdemeanor exclusively prosecuted by the county attorney rather than the city attorney, who usually prosecutes misdemeanors. Minn. Stat. §§ 626.556, subd. 6; 388.051, subd. 2, para. (c).

I need to go back and finish reading the complaint, but I believe you are severely misreading Minnesota law. If these are the statutes the prosecutor these charges are going to be dismissed and the prosecutor could be liable for over prosecution.

Subd. 3.Persons mandated to report.

(a) A person who knows or has reason to believe a child is being neglected or physically or sexually abused, as defined in subdivision 2, or has been neglected or physically or sexually abused within the preceding three years, shall immediately report the information to the local welfare agency, agency responsible for assessing or investigating the report, police department, or the county sheriff if the person is:

…]

(2) employed as a member of the clergy and received the information while engaged in ministerial duties, provided that a member of the clergy is not required by this subdivision to report information that is otherwise privileged under section 595.02, subdivision 1, paragraph (c).

This is under the paragraph labeled “mandatory reporters.” As you see, Clergy are named, but nowhere is corporation, non-profit organization, or organized church listed. So they must not be relying on these laws but different laws.

So indeed I went back and read the complaint. There are 6 complaints.
Three counts of

§
Subdivision 1.Crimes.

(a) Any person who by act, word, or omission encourages, causes, or contributes to delinquency of a child or to a child’s status as a juvenile petty offender, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

and three counts of

260C.425 CRIMINAL JURISDICTION FOR CONTRIBUTING TO NEED FOR PROTECTION OR SERVICES.
Subdivision 1.Crimes.

(a) Any person who by act, word, or omission encourages, causes, or contributes to the need for protection or services is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

260B.007 DEFINITIONS.
Subd. 11.Person.

“Person” includes any individual, association, corporation, partnership, and the state or any of its political subdivisions, departments, or agencies.

So the Archdiocese is a “person” for these laws, and it appears they are relying on the “omission” part of the statute.

 

[pnewton]

This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen on CAF. You’re questioning the quality of my “American-ness” because I have an opinion about the guilt of a defendant before a jury has rendered a verdict? I suppose you would never do such a thing. OJ? Timothy McVey? Boston Marathon bombers? I’m sure you waited for the jury before you expressed you opinion regarding their guilt or innocence.

No, I do not render judgment out of hand or out of ignorance. I am not stupid, but I am ignorant, as far as this goes. If you want flames and the typical exchange of heated ignorant opinions, this is not the best place to look. Here we try to operate with a basic understanding of charity and morality, not judgment and hypocrisy. We believe that we are judged by God based on how we judge others. We also a;so believe that rash judgment is a sin that must be avoided.

 

[Robert_Bay]

REMINDER

Charitably discuss the issues, not each other, nor how each other post

Please read over the forum rules here when discussing Catholic clergy

No name calling

 

[logcabinrandy]

Problem is, sometimes police involvement just make things worse, In some cases, handling things ‘in house’ is the better choice, in general, police are secular authorities.

What do you mean by makes it worse? That has been the problem with the whole abuse that has gone on for years. It has been kept for the most part in house and the abusers had their hands slapped and were moved onto another Parish, only to see the abusing cycle continue

 

[Abynissa]

Latest on church abuse: Whistleblower: Right move to resign
AP

The whistleblower who accused Catholic leaders in Minnesota of mishandling clergy abuse cases says Archbishop John Nienstedt’s resignation was “a necessary and prudent step.”

Jennifer Haselberger was an archdiocese lawyer when she came forward in 2013 to accuse Nienstedt and others of doing too little to rein in problem priests. Nienstedt resigned Monday, 10 days after a prosecutor filed criminal charges that accuse the archdiocese as a corporation of failing to protect children…MORE:

 

[estesbob]

Latest on church abuse: Whistleblower: Right move to resign
AP

The whistleblower who accused Catholic leaders in Minnesota of mishandling clergy abuse cases says Archbishop John Nienstedt’s resignation was “a necessary and prudent step.”

Jennifer Haselberger was an archdiocese lawyer when she came forward in 2013 to accuse Nienstedt and others of doing too little to rein in problem priests. Nienstedt resigned Monday, 10 days after a prosecutor filed criminal charges that accuse the archdiocese as a corporation of failing to protect children…MORE:

It is obvious that Pope Francis has zero tolerance for any mishandling of abuse cases. That’s the second Bishop in the last two months who has been asked to resign.

 

[bhktops]

I live in Chicago, during the same year Cardinal Bernardin had been diagnosed with cancer and had a direct accusation from a man that said he was molested by Bernadine. He gave a description of the incident, “We drank some Pepsi, than he molested me. He gave me a painting as a present.” The Cardinal was shocked, he was visibly shaken in front of a gallery of reporters. “I don’t know the man, I don’t know the man.” The Attorneys told him how to handle it, he said, “No we are handling my way. Right now, I want to see the painting, to know exactly when this allegement occurred, what time of the day, the location and I want to meet this man.” The accuser admitted, “I was steered into thinking this event as I was meditating in a class.” The Cardinal still met with him, the man apologized, Cardinal Bernadine forgave him."

But this is going a different path altogether. If they were just allegations, no evidence, I doubt Pope Francis and St. Paul archdiocese would be talking about men stepping down and pedaphila problems. Keep the Church clean, we do not need eclipsical on the environment, How could they let this happen again? Jesus.

 

[bhktops]

They don’t have enough evidence to p(name removed by moderator)oint any wrong doing by any individual, but they know the Diocese did it. How does a Diocese do anything without individuals acting on its behalf?

edit: And why, in this day and age, didn’t anyone with concerns report the priest to the police rather than just complain to the Church?

Maybe they told the Police. Look at Cardinal George’s case of a Priest in Chicago. A secretary at a Church said she found ‘thousands of pornographic pictures of children’ on a priest’s computer. She quickly tried to send them to the Police while she was alone in the room. The Police received 1 email and it was only 1 picture, only 1, of a child and a cop said, “We don’t even know if this is pornography.” After he was released from custody, the Priest molested a child.
These guys are sick individuals, sometimes they do terrible things before they get caught. I am not justifying it.