St Simeon Stylites

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padraig:
By the way Reen there was a great book about an Russian Orthodox monk Fr Silhouan who died on Mount Athos in I believe the 1920’s. A very great saint, I believe he may have kept a spiritual diary. Well worth reading, maybe Fr Amrose will recall if he reads this and if he was raised to the altars?
Look for the books by Fr Sophrony (Sakharov) of Essex, “The Undistorted Image” and others. he was a disciple of Saint Silouan of Mt Athos.

A brief article:
philthompson.net/pages/about/silouan/index.htm

More references:
voskrese.info/spl/Xsilouan.html

Holy Father Silouan, pray for us.
http://www.sspeterpaul.org/StSilouan.jpg
 
I’m reminded here of the words of Winston Churchill re Americans and the English, ‘Two great peoples divided by a common language!’. Well same with us. I read a lot of books and think I know a little, then I talk to someone like you and realise how pig ignorant I am!
Sigh, groan!:crying:
Ah well beginning to realise how little we know, I suppose is the start of wisdom.
 
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reen12:
what do you make of the words to Fr. Silouan: “Keep your mind in hell, and despair not.”
**“Keep your mind in hell, and despair not.” **

What is that supposed to mean? Saint Silouan’s pupil and disciple Elder Sophrony explains:

“Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not.” What does it mean to “keep thy mind in hell”? Can it be that we are to use the imagination to conjure up circumstances for ourselves similar to those figures in some primitive painting? In this instance, no. Father Silouan, like certain great Fathers - St. Anthony, St.Sisoe, St. Makarios, St. Pimen - during his lifetime actually descended into the darkness and torments of hell… They took refuge in it when passion - especially the most subtle of passions, pride - reared its head… Blessed Staretz Silouan said that many ascetics when they approached that state - which is vital if one would be cleansed of the passions - would fall into despair and be unable to continue. But the one who knows “how greatly the Lord loveth us” escapes the pernicious effect of total despair and knows how to stand prudently on the verge so that the hellish fire burns away his every passion and does not fall victim to despair. “And despair not.” If the Staretz’ s account is a simple one, the power and mystery of the matter will remain incomprehensible for anyone who as not known a similar experience of hellish torment, on the one hand, and the great gifts of grace, on the other.
 
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padraig:
I’m reminded here of the words of Winston Churchill re Americans and the English, ‘Two great peoples divided by a common language!’. Well same with us. I read a lot of books and think I know a little, then I talk to someone like you and realise how pig ignorant I am!
Sigh, groan!:crying:
Ah well beginning to realise how little we know, I suppose is the start of wisdom.
Well, you have one advantage! I’ll be dead in ten years and you’ll still be reading 👍
 
Dear Fr. Ambrose,

I’ve read and re-read Saint John Climacus, and
I’ve started a thread on hesychasm. Don’t know
if they’ll be any interest.
With reference to the dark night of the soul,
would you contrast that with the concept “uncreated
light”?
I understand where padraig is coming from. In
the Roman Church, the experience of the absence
of God is considered salutary for given souls.
It is not at all to be equated with the sense of
spiritual depression in the Orthodox community,
which, as you rightly point out, is a condition to
be immediately dealt with by one’s confessor.

I think the point can be made that Staretz Silouan
experienced the dark night of the soul, and that
he was encouraged by God to “Keep your mind
in hell, and despair not.”
It’s also interesting to note that Fr. Benedict
Groeschel [RC] notes that Mother Teresa of
Calcutta experienced great inner darkness for
much of her life. Then there is the concept
of the lamed vovnik in Judaism.

John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, St. Silouan
and Mother Teresa, to me, are souls chosen
by God to experience Him in a way that transcends
the understanding of many of their co-religionists.
Call it what we will, it is God’s perogative.
Best wishes,
reen12
 
Dear padraig,

The work of John Climacus is available on the web,
I believe. Try under AnteNicene Fathers of the
Church [or is it PostNicene…I can never remember.]
reen12
 
O think maybe Reen is right, Father and really we are talking often about similiar things but approahing them from different directions. In the western tradition there have been several saints who have been transported by God to hell. I think at once of St Teresa of Avila and the visionaries of Fatima. However these visions are given only transitory importance and are not considered spiritual stages as such in the sense you imply for Fr Silohan. We would talk of Darknesses a Purgative darkness, in which are own souls are cleansed and a Redmptive darkness in which we hang on the cross to heal others.
Fr Silohan goes to hell you say to keep holy humility. Well that recalls something the Cure of Ars, John Vianney, patron saint of parish priest says. One time he asked God to show him to himself as he really was. In amatter of seconds the Cure was totally crushed and begged Gosd to remove the grace or he would instantly have died. Sounds a bit like going to hell to me;)

I love your icons, beautiful! Do you paint them yourself? Folks in Belfast have a great Devotion to the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour in Clonard Monastery. There is a big novena to her once a year in Clonard. Sadly, often popular Catholic art would embarass even the devil!

Reen thanks for the reference but cannot find your thread on Heyshasim (Ispelt that shockingly:o )

Thanks Father for reference on Fr Silohan lovely icon of him. Always love the great beards and wonderful garments. Always feel I would mind my Ps and Q’s round someone dressed thus.
 
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padraig:
We would talk of Darknesses a Purgative darkness, in which are own souls are cleansed
The Orthodox would have trouble with the notion of a God who withdraws from a soul in order to bring about a purgative way. Only sin separates us from God and prevents us “feeling” His divine presence. He Himself does not withdraw to leave us in a “dark night of the soul” and so the Orthodox would find it a bot abnormal to suggest that and a spiritual father or mother would look for the cause within the person rather than with God.
and a Redmptive darkness in which we hang on the cross to heal others.
The notion of sharing in Christ’s pain and the delight in the thought of being worthy to suffer with Christ, to somehow atone, as He did, for the sins of which they are innocent is a Roman Catholic notion. Is it founded in the Roman Catholic “satisfaction theory” - unknown to the Orthodox Church?
I love your icons, beautiful! Do you paint them yourself?
I wish!!
Folks in Belfast
Are you in Belfast? I have a cyber friend there, Fr Geoffrey Ready and his wife Jolan. They live in Bangor and have a small chapel at home. His small community is under the Russian Orthodox archbishop Mark who lives in Germany.
have a great Devotion to the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour in Clonard Monastery.
I’ll wager money that they are Redemptorists. Wherever you find them, you’ll find a devotion to this holy icon.

Btw, you must get up early? It would have been 5:30 in Ireland when your message appeared.
 
Hi - many, many thanks Fr Ambrose for your GREAT help.

It is most appreciated. I’ve ordered some of the books on St Simeon that you recommended. I could not thank you earlier as I don’t get Internet access over the weekend.

It’s fascinating to see how much interest St Simeon has garnered on this net forum. He may be 1000+ years old but he still has something to say to us. Perhaps in these rather reserved times people need a model like Simeon whose expression faith goes completely against what is normally accepted and shakes people up a little?

leao
 
Dear Fr. Ambrose,

I have certainly profitted from your reply to padraig,
above.
Would you please give me your thought on the
following, which just occurred to me:

In the moments before expiring, Jesus cried out:

My God, My God, why have You abandoned Me?
From my viewpoint, those who experience what
Romans call the dark night of the soul share in
that experience to a degree that a soul with only
a human nature can.

Secondly, and this has always befuddled me,
what in heaven’s name did St. Paul mean when
he referred to “making up for the sufferings
lacking” or something close to that. I haven’t
got a clue.

Many thanks,
reen12
 
Dear padraig,

I started the thread on hesychasm on the
Non Catholic Religions forum.
Fr. Ambrose was kind enough to call
my attention to the fact that the topic
had been discussed and also gave me
a link to a discussion on “uncreated light.”
I’m not going to pursue the thread, but
will content myself in looking up previous
postings on the subject.
Thanks for your interest,
reen12
I should have checked the Search function
on hesychasm before I posted.
 
You are perfectly right of course Father when you state that God does not withdraw from the soul. Catholics would not say this either apart from the anthropomorphic the Psalmists would talk of God giving the poor old soul a hard time of it! Thus as Reen quoted Jesus, Himself echoing the psalmist, my God ,my God, ect. God may not go away but it certainly feels like He does and is giving the soul a good old beating into the bargain:(
A corallary might be the psycoanaylist whose client screams in agony when confronted by repressed memories. Or again like Icarus the wax in whose wings melted when he flew too close to the sun. Or again the poor man who goes blind when staring at the sun. Part of a natural process of spiritual growth rather than a divine kick on the behind;)
I think on the question of Redemptive suffering Reen put his finger on it in his quotation from Paul. Paul also talks of the whole of creation struggling to be reborn. We are part of this struggle making up in our own persons the continuation of this. Second Christs on Calvary and at Easter. But I’m not a theologian of this type so I’ll not trade too many comments on this, I would only display my ignorance:o

If Father Ready has any services I would love to attend! My last one was in Cyprus, I visited the Kikoos Monastery in the Troodos mountains.

I get up early since the Abbey I used to be up at three to ring the bells for vigils. Haven’t kicked the habit, a blessing and a curse. Good for praying bad for feeling tired.

Sorry about the thread Reen, maybe someday you’ll do one on the relationship /Buddhist to Christianity especially re ego death. Very interesting!
 
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reen12:
In the moments before expiring, Jesus cried out:

My God, My God, why have You abandoned Me?
From my viewpoint, those who experience what
Romans call the dark night of the soul share in
that experience to a degree that a soul with only
a human nature can.
Will you forgive a quick reply grabbed from an Orthodox website -a busy day is starting. Hope to get back to you later.

The narrow way is difficult, and it can be very lonely. Nevertheless, we can find consolation in knowing that Christ has gone before us. Even His closest disciples abandoned Him in His time of need; they fell asleep when He asked them to keep vigil and pray with Him in the Garden of Gethsemane; they fled when He was crucified. And in the agony of the last hour, Christ cried out: “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:3l) Truly, Christ suffered alone. If we earnestly wish to follow Him, we all must be willing to walk this narrow path. There will be times of loneliness, but however we feel, we should take courage in knowing that our guardian angel and the Lord will always be with us, as He promised.
roca.org/OA/41/41a.htm
 
The Fathers distinguish between blameworthy and unblameworthy human passions. St. John of Damascus says that in assuming human nature, the Logos also freely assumed what St. John calls the “unblameworthy passions,” such as “hunger, thirst, weariness, labor, tears, decay, shrinking from death, fear, agony with the bloody sweat, succor at the hands of Angels because of the weakness of nature, and other such like passions which belong by nature to every man.”

Let us see what some of the Fathers have said about our Lord’s cry from the Cross.

(1) “And that the words Why hast Thou forsaken Me? are His…(though He suffered nothing, for the Word was impassible), is notwithstanding declared by the Evangelists; since the Lord became man, and these things are done and said as from a man, that He might Himself lighten these very sufferings of the flesh, and free it from them. Whence neither can the Lord be forsaken by the Father, Who is ever in the Father, both before He spoke, and when He uttered this cry. Nor is it lawful to say that the Lord was in terror, at Whom the gatekeepers of Hades shuddered and set open Hades, and the graves did gape, and many bodies of the saints arose and appeared to their own people”

St. Athanasios the Great, “Discourses against the Arians,” III.29, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. IV [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1978], p. 424

(2) “Yet, I suppose, you [Arians who argued that the Logos was not coeternal with the Father, on the ground He displayed signs of weakness] will arm yourselves also for your godless contention with these words of the Lord, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? Perhaps you think that after the disgrace of the Cross, the favour of His Fathers help departed from Him, and hence His cry that He was left alone in His weakness. But if you regard the contempt, the weakness, the cross of Christ as a disgrace, you should remember His words, Verily I say unto you, From henceforth ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of Heaven”

St. Hilary of Poitiers, “On the Trinity,” X.31, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. IX [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1978], p. 190

(3) “And thus, He Who subjects presents to God that which He has subjected, making our condition His own. Of the same kind, it appears to me, is the expression, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? It was not He who was forsaken either by the Father, or by His own Godhead, as some have thought, as if It were afraid of the Passion, and therefore withdrew Itself from Him in His sufferings (for who compelled Him either to be born on earth at all, or to be lifted up on the Cross?). But as I said, He was in His own Person representing us. For we were the forsaken and despised before, but now by the Sufferings of Him Who could not suffer, we were taken up and saved. Similarly, He makes His own our folly and our transgressions; and says what follows in the Psalm, for it is very evident that the Twenty-first Psalm refers to Christ”

St. Gregory the Theologian, “Fourth Theological Oration,” 30.5, Patrologia Græca, Vol. XXXVI, col. 109A

(4) “He saith, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that unto His last breath they might see that He honors His Father, and is no adversary of God. Wherefore also He uttered a certain cry from the Prophet, even to His last hour bearing witness to the Old Testament, and not simply a cry from the Prophet, but also in Hebrew, so as to be plain and intelligible to them, and by all things, He shows how He is of one mind with Him that begat Him”

St. John Chrysostomos, “Homilies on St. Matthew,” 88.1, Patrologia Græca, Vol. LVIII, col. 776

(5) “The cry My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? is the utterance of Adam, who trampled on the commandment given to him and disregarded Gods Law; thus did God abandon human nature, which had become accursed. When the Only-begotten Word of God came to restore fallen man, the abandonment entailed by that curse and corruption had to come to an end. My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? is the voice of Him Who destroyed our forsakenness, as if He were imploring the Father to be gracious to mankind. When, as man, He asks for something, it is for us; as God, He was in need of nothing”

St. Cyril of Alexandria, “Second Oration to the Empresses on the True Faith,” 18, Patrologia Græca, Vol. LXXVI, col. 1357A
 
Elsewhere, St. Cyril interprets this verse as proof that Christ was truly man (“Thesaurus Concerning the Holy and Consubstantial Trinity,” 24, Patrologia Græca, Vol. LXXV, col. 397D) and portrays Christ as the Second Adam, Who cleansed human nature of the corruption to which it became subject through Adams fall into disobedience and Who restored it to its pristine purity and dignity (“That Christ Is One,” Patrologia Græca, Vol. LXXV, cols. 1325C-1328A).

(6) “Christs cry of Forsaken on the Cross was to teach us the insufficiency of the human nature without the Divine. Hence it is that the Lord Jesus Christ, our Head, representing all the members of His body in Himself and speaking for those whom He was redeeming in the punishment of the Cross, uttered that cry which He had once uttered in the Psalm, O God, My God, look upon Me; why hast Thou forsaken Me? That cry, dearly-beloved, is a lesson, not a complaint. For since in Christ there is one Person of God and man, and He could not have been forsaken by Him from Whom He could not be separated, it is on behalf of us, trembling and weak ones, that He asks why the flesh that is afraid to suffer has not been heard”

Pope St. Leo the Great, “Homily,” 67.7, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XII [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1978], p. 179

(7) “Further, these words, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? He said as making our personality His own. For neither would God be regarded with us as His Father, unless one were to discriminate with subtle imaginings of the mind between that which is seen and that which is thought, nor was He ever forsaken by His Divinity: nay, it was we who were forsaken and disregarded. So that it was as appropriating our personality that He offered these prayers”

St. John of Damascus, “Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith,” III.24, Patrologia Græca, Vol. XCIV, col. 1093A

From these citations it is quite clear that the Fathers all view Christs apparent despair as an example of the oikonomia that characterizes the entire Incarnation. That is to say, Christ quoted this verse from Psalm 21 for our benefit, to show that He was truly man, that it was none other than He about Whom the Prophets had spoken, and to demonstrate His genuine solidarity with the wretched plight of fallen humanity. There is not even a hint in any of these sources that Christ, as God, experienced the loss of God. At best, Bishop Kallistos is simply being careless when he claims that, “Jesus is truly experiencing the spiritual death of separation from God,” and that, “for our sakes he accepts even the loss of God.” If one is to make bold statements of this kind, it is better to say, as did St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, that, “so as to feel the full weight of the consequences of sin, the Son of God would voluntarily allow His human nature to feel even the horror of separation from God” (“What Did Christ Pray About in the Garden of Gethsemane?” Living Orthodoxy, Vol. XV, No. 3 [May-June 1993], p. 6

Taken from
orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/review_tow.aspx
 
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reen12:
Secondly, and this has always befuddled me,
what in heaven’s name did St. Paul mean when
he referred to “making up for the sufferings
lacking” or something close to that. I haven’t
got a clue.
Well, to get an Orthodox viewpoint, we need to go back (it’s always the case) to what the Church Fathers taught. By doing this we find the mind of the Church at a time (and please forgive me for saying this -it is only a comment and not meant to be offensive) when the West had not systematized these things into theories of co-redemptive suffering, etc. The Fathers certainly teach that Christ and Christ alone is the unique Redeemer.

Here are some words from Saint John Chrysostom in his Commentary on Colossians…

**Ver. 24. “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body’s sake, which is the Church.” **

And what is the connection of this? It seems indeed not to be connected, but it is even closely so. And “minister,” he says, that is, bringing in nothing from myself, but announcing what is from another. I so believe, that I suffer even for His sake, and not suffer only, but even rejoice in suffering, looking unto the hope which is to come, and I suffer not for myself, but for you. “And fill up,” he saith, “that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh.” It seems indeed to be a great thing he has said; but it is not of arrogancy, far be it, but even of much tender love towards Christ; for he will not have the sufferings to be his own, but His, through desire of conciliating these persons to Him. And what things I suffer, I suffer, he saith, on His account: not to me, therefore, express your gratitude, but to him, for it is He Himself who suffers. Just as if one, when sent to a person, should make request to another, saying, I beseech thee, go for me to this person, then the other should say, “it is on his account I am doing it.” So that He is not ashamed to call these sufferings also his own. For He did not only die for us, but even after His death He is ready to be afflicted for your sakes. He is eagerly and vehemently set upon showing that He is even now exposed to peril in His own Body for the Church’s sake, and he aims at this point, namely, ye are not brought unto God by us, but by Him, even though. we do these things, for we have not undertaken a work of our own, but His. And it is the same as if there were a band which had its allotted leader to protect it, and it should stand in battle, and then when he was gone, his lieutenant should succeed to his wounds until the battle were brought to a close.

Next, that for His sake also he doeth these things, hearken: “For His Body’s sake,” he saith, assuredly meaning to say this: “I pleasure not you, but Christ: for what things He should have suffered, I suffer instead of Him.” See how many things he establishes. Great, he shows, is the claim upon their love. As in his second Epistle to the Corinthians, he wrote, saying, “he committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. v. 20); and again, “We are ambassadors on behalf of Christ; as though God were entreating by us.” So also here he saith, “For his sake I suffer,” that he may the more draw them to Him. That is, though He who is your debtor is gone away, yet I repay. For, on this account he also said, “that which is lacking,” to show that not even yet does he consider Him to have suffered all. “For your sake,” he saith, and even after His death He suffers; seeing that still there remains a deficiency. The same thing he doeth in another way in the Epistle to the Romans, saying, “Who also maketh intercession for us” (Rom. viii. 34), showing that He was not satisfied with His death alone, but even afterwards He doeth countless things.
 
He does not then say this to exalt himself, but through a desire to show that Christ is even yet caring for them. And he shows what he says to be credible, by adding, “for His Body’s sake.” For that so it is, and that there is no unlikelihood in it, is plain from these things being done for His body’s sake. Look how He hath knitted us unto Himself. Why then introduce Angels between? “Whereof I was made,” he saith, “a minister.” Why introduce Angels besides? “I am a minister.” Then he shows that he had himself done nothing, albeit he is a minister. “Of which I was made,” saith he, “a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given me to you ward, to fulfill the word of God.” “The dispensation.” Either he means, He so willed that after His own departure we should succeed to the dispensation, in order that ye might not feel as deserted, (for it is Himself that suffers, Himself that is ambassador; ) or he means this, namely, me who was more than all a persecutor, for this end He permitted to persecute, that in my preaching I might gain belief; or by “dispensation” he means, that He required not deeds, nor actions, nor good works, but faith and baptism. For ye would not otherwise have received the word. “For you,” he saith, “to fulfill the word of God.” He speaks of the Gentiles, showing that they were yet wavering, by the expression, “fulfill.” For that the cast-away Gentiles should have been able to receive such lofty doctrines was not of Paul, but of the dispensation of God; “for I never could have had the power,” he saith. Having shown that which is greater, that his sufferings are Christ’s, he next subjoins what is more evident, that this also is of God, “to fulfill His word in you.” And he shows here covertly, that this too is of dispensation, that it is spoken to you now, when ye are able to hear it, and cometh not of neglect, but to the end ye may receive it. For God doeth not all things on a sudden, but useth condescension because of His plenteous love toward man. And this is the reason why Christ came at this time, and not of old. And He shows in the Gospel, that for this reason He sent the servants first, that they might not proceed to kill the Son. For if they did not reverence the Son, even when He came after the servants, much less would they had He come sooner; if they gave no heed to the lesser commandments, how would they to the greater? What then, doth one object? Are there not Jews even now, and Greeks who are in a very imperfect condition? This, however, is an excess of listlessness. For after so long a time, after such great instructions, still to continue imperfect, is a proof of great stupidity.
 
Hi, Fr. Ambrose,

Around noon yesterday, I got a call from my
mother’s nursing home that she was being
sent to the emergency room. Apparently,
Mom has had a very small stroke [she also
has Altzheimer’s, can no longer stand].
I spent several hours in the ER, went back
with her, fed her her supper and got home
around 6 PM.
It’s after midnight here, and my old head
isn’t in proper shape to read your kind
replies. I look forward to tomorrow [Tues.]
when I will be in position to read and
appreciate your responses.
Please say a prayer for my mother, will
you Father?
Kindest regards,
reen 12 [Maureen Kathleen]
 
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