St. Thomas' Motion Argument and Modern Physics

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Yes, Thomas of Aquino believed that creatio ex nihilo is possible. What I was asking, however, was for someone to show me it is possible, not just assert it, as Thomas is doing here.
As long as you reject a posteriori argument that is impossible. From the S.T. we have the following from Part 1, Ques. 3, Art. 2.

Article 2. Whether it can be demonstrated that God exists?
Objection 1. It seems that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated. For it is an article of faith that God exists. But what is of faith cannot be demonstrated, because a demonstration produces scientific knowledge; whereas faith is of the unseen (Hebrews 11:1). Therefore it cannot be demonstrated that God exists.

Objection 2. Further, the essence is the middle term of demonstration. But we cannot know in what God’s essence consists, but solely in what it does not consist; as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. i, 4). Therefore we cannot demonstrate that God exists.

Objection 3. Further, if the existence of God were demonstrated, this could only be from His effects. But His effects are not proportionate to Him, since He is infinite and His effects are finite; and between the finite and infinite there is no proportion. Therefore, since a cause cannot be demonstrated by an effect not proportionate to it, it seems that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated.

On the contrary, The Apostle says: “The invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made” (Romans 1:20). But this would not be unless the existence of God could be demonstrated through the things that are made; for the first thing we must know of anything is whether it exists.

I answer that, Demonstration can be made in two ways: One is through the cause, and is called “a priori,” and this is to argue from what is prior absolutely. The other is through the effect, and is called a demonstration “a posteriori”; this is to argue from what is prior relatively only to us. When an effect is better known to us than its cause, from the effect we proceed to the knowledge of the cause. And from every effect the existence of its proper cause can be demonstrated, so long as its effects are better known to us; because since every effect depends upon its cause, if the effect exists, the cause must pre-exist. Hence the existence of God, in so far as it is not self-evident to us, can be demonstrated from those of His effects which are known to us.

Reply to Objection 1. The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically known and demonstrated.

Reply to Objection 2. When the existence of a cause is demonstrated from an effect, this effect takes the place of the definition of the cause in proof of the cause’s existence. This is especially the case in regard to God, because, in order to prove the existence of anything, it is necessary to accept as a middle term the meaning of the word, and not its essence, for the question of its essence follows on the question of its existence. Now the names given to God are derived from His effects; consequently, in demonstrating the existence of God from His effects, we may take for the middle term the meaning of the word “God”.

Reply to Objection 3. From effects not proportionate to the cause no perfect knowledge of that cause can be obtained. Yet from every effect the existence of the cause can be clearly demonstrated, and so we can demonstrate the existence of God from His effects; though from them we cannot perfectly know God as He is in His essence.

Linus
 
Yes, Thomas of Aquino believed that creatio ex nihilo is possible. What I was asking, however, was for someone to show me it is possible, not just assert it, as Thomas is doing here.
What are you asking people to do, exactly? Put God under lab conditions and see if he can create a universe?
 
What are you asking people to do, exactly? Put God under lab conditions and see if he can create a universe?
No. This is not Science. However the fact remains that out of nothing comes nothing. So he is asking you or anyone to show him how it is metaphysically possible for God or any being to create something from nothing.
 
No. This is not Science. However the fact remains that out of nothing comes nothing. So he is asking you or anyone to show him how it is metaphysically possible for God or any being to create something from nothing.
Indeed. and for people like Linus, who claims that there can be no reason to doubt that God did all this, it should be fairly easy to do. Yet, so far, he hasn’t and AFAIK nobody else had either.
 
What are you asking people to do, exactly? Put God under lab conditions and see if he can create a universe?
No, Eleve, although that seems to be the burden that theists require from atheists: to see that under lab conditions a universe can arise. But all I am asking people to do is to show that creatio ex nihilo is metaphysically possible without just asserting that God must have done so.
I am aware of Thomas’ claims. And I agree that if it were proven that God did create the universe from nothing, we would have to accept that this is somehow possible. But since it hasn’t been proven, and there seems to be no metaphysically possible way for it to happen, I think we ought to reject the notion of a an immutable being creating things from nothing.

Might I ask you what ecatly tour position is, Eleve? ecause I noticed you are not religious.
 
No. This is not Science. However the fact remains that out of nothing comes nothing. So he is asking you or anyone to show him how it is metaphysically possible for God or any being to create something from nothing.
Thomas is not saying (and his is denying that it is possible) that nothing is the stuff from which creation is made.
He is saying that prior to creation there was No Thing present (i.e., “NoThing”, Nothing).
From (εκ) refers to the order or sequence, not the material out of which one thing became another thing.

John Martin
 
No. This is not Science. However the fact remains that out of nothing comes nothing. So he is asking you or anyone to show him how it is metaphysically possible for God or any being to create something from nothing.
what makes him think he would understand the how?

‘out of nothing comes nothing’ requires a Creator, otherwise there would indeed be nothing, ever, and we know that is not true because we are all, in fact, here in the universe…
 
No, Eleve, although that seems to be the burden that theists require from atheists: to see that under lab conditions a universe can arise. But all I am asking people to do is to show that creatio ex nihilo is metaphysically possible without just asserting that God must have done so.
I am aware of Thomas’ claims. And I agree that if it were proven that God did create the universe from nothing, we would have to accept that this is somehow possible. But since it hasn’t been proven, and there seems to be no metaphysically possible way for it to happen, I think we ought to reject the notion of a an immutable being creating things from nothing.

Might I ask you what ecatly tour position is, Eleve? ecause I noticed you are not religious.
Well, I don’t think God exists. But I can’t for the life of me see how you think that it would be metaphysically impossible for an omnipotent being to create the universe, if one were to exist. It seems to me that if God exists and God can do anything, then ipso facto God can create a universe from nothing.
 
Well, I don’t think God exists. But I can’t for the life of me see how you think that it would be metaphysically impossible for an omnipotent being to create the universe, if one were to exist. It seems to me that if God exists and God can do anything, then ipso facto God can create a universe from nothing.
For the same reason it would be metaphysically impossible for something to pop into existence.
Despite the fact that ex nihilo nihil fit seems intuitively true, there is no proof that it is metaphysically impossible for something to come from nothing. But both something poppng into existence and someone creating something else from noting have the same problem for me. AFAICT ,there is no essential diffrentce between the two concepts.
And virtually nobody belives that God can do anything. god cannot do something that is impossible. If one belives that ex nihilo nihil fit then creating something from nothing is just as impossible as creating a square circle.
 
Thomas is not saying (and his is denying that it is possible) that nothing is the stuff from which creation is made.
He is saying that prior to creation there was No Thing present (i.e., “NoThing”, Nothing).
From (εκ) refers to the order or sequence, not the material out of which one thing became another thing.

John Martin
I am not saying that either. Of course ‘nothing’ does not refer to a material, it refers to no material. That’s precisely what makes it impossible if we hold to the truth of ex nihilo nihil fit, that is.
 
Well, I don’t think God exists. But I can’t for the life of me see how you think that it would be metaphysically impossible for an omnipotent being to create the universe, if one were to exist. It seems to me that if God exists and God can do anything, then ipso facto God can create a universe from nothing.
And, Aquinas does believe in the God revealed. Again, though, the word “from” does not indicate the source of the material of creation, but the order (where there was nothing, no-being, now there is all being, from the universe down to you).

As to “How?” Aquinas does not give a lengthy discourse, but breaks all down into individual questions, and only after you have understood them all, will you say, “Oh, that is how”. He will first explain this God through many questions answered, as to his Being, what he is, how he is, until he gets to the points about creation.

But at the top of it all, you must understand that Thomas is explaining what he knows is true to others who also know it is true, yet they do not understand how it is true nor understand the implications of it being true. He is not explaining for those who do not know or believe in this God. The reason he is explaining is because those who believe in this God also have Reason, and they seek to understand what they know.
If you do not know this God as a starting point, you will not find your metaphysics in Thomas. If you know that Thomas knows this God and his goal is explaining all in reference to this God, then you can follow through what Thomas thought, yet it will not be sufficient for your metaphysic. Only when you know the same God as true, real, but not yet understood, can you find a metaphysic that really describes very accurately what you see in your life and the world of creation around you, and feel very certain about it.

John Martin
 
For the same reason it would be metaphysically impossible for something to pop into existence.
Despite the fact that ex nihilo nihil fit seems intuitively true, there is no proof that it is metaphysically impossible for something to come from nothing. But both something poppng into existence and someone creating something else from noting have the same problem for me. AFAICT ,there is no essential diffrentce between the two concepts.
And virtually nobody belives that God can do anything. god cannot do something that is impossible. If one belives that ex nihilo nihil fit then creating something from nothing is just as impossible as creating a square circle.
no, because as we told you nothing is not something, it simply is not…

the square and circle are both somethings and are logically impossible in the circumstance you describe.

but some thing created from nothing is not logically impossible, it is just not possible without a creator to create.
 
For Thomas Aquinas ‘motion’ meant “broadly, any change; more narrowly, change of place, or locomotion.” [From Summa of the Summa, by Peter Kreeft]

In as much modern Physics recognizes that thing change. Aquinas’ argument holds as well as it always did.

The main problem is that in some parts of Modern Physics, it can be possible for a change to preceed its cause, in time…
 
For Aquinas, ‘motion’ meant generally speaking ‘change’ and more specifically any change in position (locomotion). In that modern Physics recognizes the existence of change the so-called ‘proofs’ of Aquinas are as valid as they ever were.

The only problem that might arise is that is some parts of modern Physics claim that an ‘effect’ may come (in time) before its ‘cause’.

CRITICAL
 
The problem is Belorg has a closed mind on the validity of arguments from inference in metaphysics. He will accept it in his daily life but not if it has anything to do with God. He will not acknowledge any form of reasoning that leads to the existence of God. The fact is that even if the universe existed eternally, its existence could only be explained by a continual, eternal act of creation. For no limited, contingent existent can account for its own existence. And this would be Ex nihil, fit also, eternally from no prior being.

Linus
 
The problem is Belorg has a closed mind on the validity of arguments from inference in metaphysics. He will accept it in his daily life but not if it has anything to do with God. He will not acknowledge any form of reasoning that leads to the existence of God. The fact is that even if the universe existed eternally, its existence could only be explained by a continual, eternal act of creation. For no limited, contingent existent can account for its own existence. And this would be Ex nihil, fit also, eternally from no prior being.

Linus
Do you actually think your ‘argument’ will become more persuasive by using a large font, Linus?

The moment you have anything more to say except for ad hominems and assertions, I will respond to you.
 
What moves the soul of man to think? Does it move itself?
If yes, then God is not needed as prime mover. If not, then free will is absent, and God or else moves the soul.
 
Do you actually think your ‘argument’ will become more persuasive by using a large font, Linus?

The moment you have anything more to say except for ad hominems and assertions, I will respond to you.
Point out the " ad hominems. " The " assertions " are inferences drawn from observing a history of systematic behavior.

Linus
 
I would like to address the issue of God’s existence raised in earlier posts (22 and 24).
I would suggest that God’s existence can be proven but not in a physical scientific sense.God is spiritual and not physical but can be if he wills to do so. It is unreasonable to suggest a physical scientific explanation of God who is spiritual.I would think the best place to begin on the issue of the existence God with the creation of the universe.
My own take on the origin of the universe follows:
1.A supreme intelligent being who we call “God” created the universe or he did not.
2. If God did not create the universe than what did? Note the word “what” which of course cannot be an intelligent being or have the ability to transfer intelligence (what would be the source of such intelligence?)In other words God created the universe or a non intelligent “what” did – it must be one or the other.The universe contains information which makes it work the way it does plus our Earth contains intelligent life.Can physical science credibly define the original source of such information and intelligence?
3.A “what” by itself cannot create intelligent life.
4.Everything created is contingent except the First Cause which can only be God who is the First Cause and is eternal (always was, is and always will be)refer St. Thomas Aquinas “Summa”. Each truth is dependent or contingent on another truth except the First Cause.Using regression the earliest effect must have had a first cause.
5. Big Bang Theory (“BBT”) posits that as the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate which means the universe must have been very small at its beginning some 13.7 billion years ago.This has been confirmed in satellite sightings and analysis by NASA.
Space and time were created at the instant of creation of the universe.It logically follows that the universe must have been created outside of space and time.There was no space/time “before” the instant of creation .Only a super intelligent being, God who existed prior to the instant of creation could have created the universe – there is no other rational or sensible explanation. BBT makes no attempt to discover the origin of the universe - it commences after the instant of the creation of the universe.
6.Physical science discovers physical things what are or are not and attempts to define how such discovered things work.It is not very good explaining why things exist or why they work the way they do. We need to realise that physical science has its limitations in explaining the whole truth on almost everything. In addition physical science only deals with the material and not the immaterial.

to be continued
 
continued

7.There are so called theories of the origin of the universe such as those based on string theory or the bouncing or cyclic universe which supposedly contracts and then explodes and contracts again and again over trillions of years. Another theory is that our universe is part of a vast multi universe.Another is string or brane theory of everything which despite many conferences and a vast number of published articles and books has not made a single prediction which stands up to scrutiny.It is an abstract theory using assumptions which may or may not be true.All these so called theories are nothing more than scientific ideas or hypothesis at best. They are more akin to a belief rather than science.A theory must be capable of being falsified.Such theories of the origin of the universe can never be tested or observed.One can say anything and make all kinds of assumptions without any means of checking the veracity ( testing and/or observing) of the so called theories.In any event such theories make no attempt to define the origin of their initial bouncing universe or multiverse.They do not use contingency or first cause and effect principles.
8.The truth is IMO that most people who do not believe in God or choose to deny his existence will grasp at anything that will confirm their belief that the universe was not created by God but in some other way, any way will do so long as it sounds possible. Such people are in reality grasping at straws so to speak and will tend to accept what they read or told especially by mainstream media without any serious investigation and a lack of rational thinking because that would put them outside their comfort zone and that generally must be avoided at all costs.People who do not know or accept the truth may have to change their way of life if they found the truth and such change is unlikely to be easy in most cases.They may not realise that their so called theories are in fact a belief(religion) which has not and will never will be substantiated/confirmed in a physical scientific way by means of testing and/or observation.
9.It is widely acknowledged or believed that human beings have souls which have an after life. This is so since ancient times in all continents and before and after Christianity or lack of knowledge thereof.Today Christians and many non Christians believe in the human spirit or soul and an after life for human beings.But what exactly are spirits or souls?
Whence come goodness, evil,love ,the ability to identify beauty and other immaterial things? Science has not discovered any immaterial things such as love, evil, goodness, kindness genes in their genetic mapping of the human genome because they are not of the body but spiritual. Souls are not inherited from our parents because they are spiritual.In addition a number of questions arises "What determines and sets apart a good man from an evil man? At times even a good man does evil things ( don’t we all?) and an evil man does good things so what causes the switch?.Is there something material in man that recognises goodness and evil and behaviour which may be good on one day and evil the next even on the same issue.Note such a switch may temporary or permanent. It is not possible for a “what” which has no soul to create a soul on conception into a body.It is not possible for the original cell (matter)created at conception to include a spiritual soul.The faculties of the soul in a human being are intelligence and free will.Plants and animals also have souls but they do not have free will and rational intelligence such as the recognition of self - their souls are purely designed for survival of the body and regeneration of their species. Their souls die upon death.There is no doggy heaven.So the question arises again - by what means are human beings given their souls on conception in their mothers womb? Why are the souls of plants and animals different to that of man?Did Darwin have an explanation/answer? Is there a physical scientific explanation of how and why human beings are given souls on conception? The truth is God who is spiritual ,gives each of us our souls at conception. Our souls are unique and specifically gifted by God to every person -you and me and all of mankind.Isn’t that awesome? The fact is that every human being has a spiritual soul which cannot die on physical death because it is spiritual.(God created man in his image and likeness). The reality that Man’s spiritual soul survives his physical death provides evidence of the existence of God.
10.It is my understanding that science posits that a something of its own accord cannot create something better than itself.So how can a “what” of itself provide such a better thing? Only a living intelligent someone (God) has the power to do so.For example it is my understanding that science has not come up with any scientific evidence that plants evolved into animals and animals evolved into human beings.
 
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