St. Thomas' Motion Argument and Modern Physics

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Gentlemen;
In post 985, belorg wrote:“If G does not becaome G+U, then, unless U can pop into existence, from nothing ( thus violating ex nihilo nihil comes) there can never be a U.”

It is futile to discuss anything with belorg on any level approaching common sense, rationality, reason, or witticism. His mind apparently has been fossilized by the a single maxim: ex nihilo nihil fit, nothing comes from nothing.

However I understand his stubborn defense of the maxim since he is a living example of the truth of nothing coming from nothing. He has been mentally entrapped by the word “nothing” and doesn’t appear to have the wherewithal to understand that word’s delightful ambiguities. As a result his argument will stop at nothing.

Since he seems to know a lot about nothing, perhaps he would explain how it is that if nothing comes from nothing then:

If nothing comes from nothing then nothing exists? and yet nothing is further from the truth

A poor man has nothing; a rich man wants for nothing; does a rich man need what the poor man has?

If you eat nothing long enough it will kill you.

Nothing is better than a dry martini; and yet martinis are better than nothing

Nothing is impossible for God; and yet nothing is easy for the simplest dolt.

nothing is evil; nothing is perfect; nothing lasts forever, etc., etc., etc.

I managed to rid myself of sir belorg with the accusation that he is a compulsive obsessive that must get the last word. The irony of my approach is that in my several discussions with him in this thread, it seems I got the last word and for a few moments I was fooled into thinking that perhaps belorg was sharp enough to realize that and had subtly turned the tables on me. That thought disappeared quickly when I realized that the reason I got the last word was he didn’t have a response. As evidence I submit that belorg failed to respond to my posts: 359, 418, 562, 651, 686, 822, 894.

Yppop
 
belorg said:
…what we are talking about here is whether there is any ontological diffrence between wG and G.
Now it should be noted that wG is the way the world would be if God did not create anything at all. So, I don’t see any ontological difefrence between wG and G and even if there were a difference, that would mean that there is at least something other than God that God did not create, which is a direct violation of Catholic doctrine.
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So in other words, what you are saying is this: for God to have created anything, he must have formed it of his own substance, because he could not have created from nothing.

Is that right?
 
ivebeenshown said:
So in other words, what you are saying is this: for God to have created anything, he must have formed it of his own substance, because he could not have created from nothing.

Is that right?
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It’s much more complicated than that, but it’s a good start.
 
belorg said:
It’s much more complicated than that, but it’s a good start.
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And that is Pantheism, which is condemned by the Catholic Church. God and the created universe are entirely seperate realities. God is not a part of the created universe and the created universe is not part of God. And the universe does not develop " into " God. These are Pantheistic heresies long condemned by the Church. I suspected you were aiming at something like that, since there wasn’t anywhere else for you to go. Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
And that is Pantheism, which is condemned by the Catholic Church. God and the created universe are entirely seperate realities. God is not a part of the created universe and the created universe is not part of God. And the universe does not develop " into " God. These are Pantheistic heresies long condemned by the Church. I suspected you were aiming at something like that, since there wasn’t anywhere else for you to go. Linus2nd
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I am an atheist, Linus, not a pantheist, so i am not aiming at this at all.
 
belorg said:
I am an atheist, Linus, not a pantheist, so i am not aiming at this at all.
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CHAPTER 38
1Then the LORD* answered Job out of the storm and said:

2Who is this who darkens counsel

with words of ignorance?

3Gird up your loins* now, like a man;

I will question you, and you tell me the answers!a
4Where were you when I founded the earth?

Tell me, if you have understanding.

5Who determined its size? Surely you know?

Who stretched out the measuring line for it?

6Into what were its pedestals sunk,

and who laid its cornerstone,

7While the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God* shouted for joy?

8Who shut within doors the sea,

when it burst forth from the womb,
9When I made the clouds its garment

and thick darkness its swaddling bands?

10When I set limits for it

and fastened the bar of its door,

11And said: Thus far shall you come but no farther,

and here shall your proud waves stop?

12Have you ever in your lifetime commanded the morning

and shown the dawn its place

13For taking hold of the ends of the earth,

till the wicked are shaken from it?

14The earth is changed as clay by the seal,

and dyed like a garment;

15But from the wicked their light is withheld,

and the arm of pride is shattered.

16Have you entered into the sources of the sea,

or walked about on the bottom of the deep?

17Have the gates of death been shown to you,

or have you seen the gates of darkness?

18Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?

Tell me, if you know it all.

19What is the way to the dwelling of light,

and darkness—where is its place?

20That you may take it to its territory

and know the paths to its home?

21You know, because you were born then,

and the number of your days is great!*
22Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,

and seen the storehouses of the hail

23Which I have reserved for times of distress,

for a day of war and battle?
24What is the way to the parting of the winds,

where the east wind spreads over the earth?

25Who has laid out a channel for the downpour

and a path for the thunderstorm

26To bring rain to uninhabited land,

the unpeopled wilderness;

27To drench the desolate wasteland

till the desert blooms with verdure?

28Has the rain a father?

Who has begotten the drops of dew?

29Out of whose womb comes the ice,

and who gives the hoarfrost its birth in the skies,

30When the waters lie covered as though with stone

that holds captive the surface of the deep?

31Have you tied cords to the Pleiades,*
or loosened the bonds of Orion?

32Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their season,

or guide the Bear with her children?

33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens;

can you put into effect their plan on the earth?

34Can you raise your voice to the clouds,

for them to cover you with a deluge of waters?

35Can you send forth the lightnings on their way,

so that they say to you, “Here we are”?

36Who gives wisdom to the ibis,

and gives the rooster* understanding?

37Who counts the clouds with wisdom?

Who tilts the water jars of heaven

38So that the dust of earth is fused into a mass

and its clods stick together?

39Do you hunt the prey for the lion

or appease the hunger of young lions,

40While they crouch in their dens,

or lie in ambush in the thicket?

41Who provides nourishment for the raven

when its young cry out to God,
wandering about without food?

CHAPTER 40
1The LORD then answered Job and said:

2Will one who argues with the Almighty be corrected?

Let him who would instruct God give answer!
3Then Job answered the LORD and said:

4* Look, I am of little account; what can I answer you?

I put my hand over my mouth.

5I have spoken once, I will not reply;

twice, but I will do so no more.

6Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said:

7Gird up your loins now, like a man.

I will question you, and you tell me the answers!

8* Would you refuse to acknowledge my right?

Would you condemn me that you may be justified?

9Have you an arm like that of God,

or can you thunder with a voice like his?

10Adorn yourself with grandeur and majesty,

and clothe yourself with glory and splendor.

11Let loose the fury of your wrath;

look at everyone who is proud and bring them down.

12Look at everyone who is proud, and humble them.

Tear down the wicked in their place,

13bury them in the dust together;

in the hidden world imprison them.
…

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
CHAPTER 38
1Then the LORD* answered Job out of the storm and said:

2Who is this who darkens counsel

with words of ignorance?

3Gird up your loins* now, like a man;

I will question you, and you tell me the answers!a
4Where were you when I founded the earth?

Tell me, if you have understanding.

5Who determined its size? Surely you know?

Who stretched out the measuring line for it?

6Into what were its pedestals sunk,

and who laid its cornerstone,

7While the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God* shouted for joy?

8Who shut within doors the sea,

when it burst forth from the womb,
9When I made the clouds its garment

and thick darkness its swaddling bands?

10When I set limits for it

and fastened the bar of its door,

11And said: Thus far shall you come but no farther,

and here shall your proud waves stop?

12Have you ever in your lifetime commanded the morning

and shown the dawn its place

13For taking hold of the ends of the earth,

till the wicked are shaken from it?

14The earth is changed as clay by the seal,

and dyed like a garment;

15But from the wicked their light is withheld,

and the arm of pride is shattered.

16Have you entered into the sources of the sea,

or walked about on the bottom of the deep?

17Have the gates of death been shown to you,

or have you seen the gates of darkness?

18Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?

Tell me, if you know it all.

19What is the way to the dwelling of light,

and darkness—where is its place?

20That you may take it to its territory

and know the paths to its home?

21You know, because you were born then,

and the number of your days is great!*
22Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,

and seen the storehouses of the hail

23Which I have reserved for times of distress,

for a day of war and battle?
24What is the way to the parting of the winds,

where the east wind spreads over the earth?

25Who has laid out a channel for the downpour

and a path for the thunderstorm

26To bring rain to uninhabited land,

the unpeopled wilderness;

27To drench the desolate wasteland

till the desert blooms with verdure?

28Has the rain a father?

Who has begotten the drops of dew?

29Out of whose womb comes the ice,

and who gives the hoarfrost its birth in the skies,

30When the waters lie covered as though with stone

that holds captive the surface of the deep?

31Have you tied cords to the Pleiades,*
or loosened the bonds of Orion?

32Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their season,

or guide the Bear with her children?

33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens;

can you put into effect their plan on the earth?

34Can you raise your voice to the clouds,

for them to cover you with a deluge of waters?

35Can you send forth the lightnings on their way,

so that they say to you, “Here we are”?

36Who gives wisdom to the ibis,

and gives the rooster* understanding?

37Who counts the clouds with wisdom?

Who tilts the water jars of heaven

38So that the dust of earth is fused into a mass

and its clods stick together?

39Do you hunt the prey for the lion

or appease the hunger of young lions,

40While they crouch in their dens,

or lie in ambush in the thicket?

41Who provides nourishment for the raven

when its young cry out to God,
wandering about without food?

CHAPTER 40
1The LORD then answered Job and said:

2Will one who argues with the Almighty be corrected?

Let him who would instruct God give answer!
3Then Job answered the LORD and said:

4* Look, I am of little account; what can I answer you?

I put my hand over my mouth.

5I have spoken once, I will not reply;

twice, but I will do so no more.

6Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said:

7Gird up your loins now, like a man.

I will question you, and you tell me the answers!

8* Would you refuse to acknowledge my right?

Would you condemn me that you may be justified?

9Have you an arm like that of God,

or can you thunder with a voice like his?

10Adorn yourself with grandeur and majesty,

and clothe yourself with glory and splendor.

11Let loose the fury of your wrath;

look at everyone who is proud and bring them down.

12Look at everyone who is proud, and humble them.

Tear down the wicked in their place,

13bury them in the dust together;

in the hidden world imprison them.
…

Linus2nd
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?
 
Linux said:
?
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When a man will not listen to reason and will not listen to God there is no reason to talk to him. Besides, this one came into our house " laying down the rules " for us to follow ; " I am already familiar with faith-based (theological) arguments, so don’t waste your time to repeat them. " And when he will speak only to those who humor him, then he deserves no consideration but should be treated as our Lord treated the " Wise " of his day.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
When a man will not listen to reason and will not listen to God there is no reason to talk to him. Besides, this one came into our house " laying down the rules " for us to follow ; " I am already familiar with faith-based (theological) arguments, so don’t waste your time to repeat them. " And when he will speak only to those who humor him, then he deserves no consideration but should be treated as our Lord treated the " Wise " of his day.

Linus2nd
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IOW, you can’t make up your own argument and decided to just throw in some quote from an ancient book instead?
 
belorg said:
It’s much more complicated than that, but it’s a good start.
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but we believe that God created all of creation not from his own substance, but from nothing. “Ex nihilo nihil fit” is true in that where there is no cause, there can be no effect. But when we say that God created “ex nihilo”, we mean that God is the cause and creation is the effect, with there being no contributing material cause.
 
ivebeenshown said:
but we believe that God created all of creation not from his own substance, but from nothing. “Ex nihilo nihil fit” is true in that where there is no cause, there can be no effect. But when we say that God created “ex nihilo”, we mean that God is the cause and creation is the effect, with there being no contributing material cause.
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I knwo that is what youi believe, and that is what my argument attempts to show is actually incoherent.
 
belorg said:
I knwo that is what youi believe, and that is what my argument attempts to show is actually incoherent.
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Then your argument fails, because it supposes that creation (the substance, not the act) is a mutation of or an addition to God’s own substance, and not an entirely new and distinct substance as an effect of God’s act. To state it differently, your argument supposes that God is equal to the set of all existing things rather than a member of the set of all existing things.

And again, “Ex nihilo nihil fit” refers to there being no cause whatsoever, while “ex nihilo” in the Catholic doctrine refers to there being no *material *cause.
 
inocente said:
Thanks for that long argument, which is even more pessimistic than mine. If only an astute philosopher can determine for himself which, if any, school of philosophy is correct then there is no possibility of any generation weeding out incorrect schools of philosophy. Since more schools are appearing all the time, the number of different schools must grow inexorably until not even an astute philosopher could read them all in his lifetime, and therefore not even an astute philosopher could determine for himself which, if any, is correct.

That’s very clear, thanks.

Thomas’ personality is irrelevant, we are discussing his philosophy.

Regarding the argument from motion, I’ve already put forward standard philosophical and physics arguments but they’re now several pages back. The standard arguments are easy enough to find online, so rather than write them out again, here’s an example of why his physics fails from aquinasonline.com.

You still refer to differences in scripture as errors.

I said “In any event Almighty God is ultimately beyond description and so authors can only reflect Him imperfectly”.

Why do you think that implies error?
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If Scripture says in one place that God changes, and in every other place that God does not change, both cannot be correct, ergo that Scripture plainly errs either in the one place or the others.

Fortunately for those who love the truth, Scripture nowhere says that God changes.

But Protestants do not read Scripture correctly, rather, they twist and distort it to their own destruction. As we witness, in you.
 
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