Stable gay relationship is better than a 'temporary' one, says Cardinal Schönborn [CH-UK]

[Joie_de_Vivre]

So your same sex partnered friends told you they converted from sexual to non-sexual or chaste relations? How many same sex couples do you personally know and of that, how many do you believe made such conversion?

,

That is neither here nor there, the specific statement and response was regarding whether saying a relationships is wholly evil or not caused affirmation of the relationship. My personal experience is that if you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that there could be any good in a a same sex relationship then you are often dismissed as a bigot. My friends know I am strongly opposed to same sex marriage and none, not even the homosexual ones, think I am a bigot. When people who have been severely hurt by religion and have been taught that Christianity hates gay people to make it so they understand that not only does Catholicism not hate, them, but it actually cares about them that is bringing them significantly closer to God. I know people who have been physically and emotionally abused in the name of God and that poisoned their view of Christianity making them think it was about hate.

Perhaps just a little off-topic, but the notion of ‘spiritual friends’ as pertaining to same sex attracted persons has been under some discussion of late. Here is a recent article by Rachel Lu in response to the matter.

A Word of Caution for the Spiritual Friends

Her essays are wrong because “But since the Catholic tradition unambiguously regards same-sex attraction as disordered, it’s important to specify that there cannot be a proper application of this kind of desire as such.” is incorrect theologically.

Distinguishing Inclinations from Actions
6. In her teaching, however, the Church never condemns persons with same-sex attraction. She carefully distinguishes between an individual’s inclinations or feelings – some of which are transitory and/or situational and others which are deep-seated or permanent – and one’s actions. While homosexual acts are always objectively wrong, same-sex inclinations are not in themselves sinful or a moral failing. To the extent that a same-sex attraction is not freely chosen, there is no personal culpability in having such an inclination. Nonetheless, when oriented toward genital activity, this inclination is “objectively disordered.”10 This does not mean that the person as a whole is somehow defective or “badly made,” or that he or she has in some way been rejected by God. Inclinations to homosexual acts in no way diminish the full human dignity or intrinsic worth of the person. For many people, same-sex attraction constitutes a trial. They therefore deserve to be approached by pastors with charity and prudence.

Pastoral Ministry to
Young People with Same-Sex Attraction
Homosexuality is disordered only insofar as it is oriented towards genital activity.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The fact that pederasty is very high among homosexuals is a big reason not to let them adopt boys. There are plenty reports of abuse by such couples already. Please, don’t try to whitewash the monumental dysfunction unleashed by changing cultural norms to fit the selfishness of a few.

What you have said is appallingly inaccurate and reactionary, given the overwhelming number of loving homes and families that have been created. Perhaps you might want to visit and see for yourself how children are doing in same sex families. It makes a difference when you actually know people and can see how good things are as they create a home together.

And perhaps you would want to compare it with abuses done by biological mothers and fathers.

But that is beside the point. The point, as we keep going back to, is the Cardinal’s statement that good, stable relationships make for good homes and families. And when we encourage such stability, it is a good thing for everyone involved.

 

[edwest2]

What you have said is appallingly inaccurate and reactionary, given the overwhelming number of loving homes and families that have been created. Perhaps you might want to visit and see for yourself how children are doing in same sex families. It makes a difference when you actually know people and can see how good things are as they create a home together.

And perhaps you would want to compare it with abuses done by biological mothers and fathers.

But that is beside the point. The point, as we keep going back to, is the Cardinal’s statement that good, stable relationships make for good homes and families. And when we encourage such stability, it is a good thing for everyone involved.

“overwhelming number”? May I ask how you know this?

Ed

 

[HCTC]

Then ask God for more strength in those areas. It helps.

We can’t let our own failings prevent us from helping as appropriate.

Ed

Would you be please so kind as to tell me specifically what you are thinking when you suggest “helping as appropriate?”

 

[edwest2]

Would you be please so kind as to tell me specifically what you are thinking when you suggest “helping as appropriate?”

The Holy Ghost guides us, and Church teaching guides us as well.

“Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances.” Proverbs 25:11

Source: biblehub.com/proverbs/25-11.htm

Ed

 

[HCTC]

The Holy Ghost guides us, and Church teaching guides us as well.

“Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances.” Proverbs 25:11

Source: biblehub.com/proverbs/25-11.htm

Ed

Ed, does it not occur to you that I do ask God for help with my failings and that I am guided by the Holy Spirit and Church teachings?

 

[HCTC]

The Holy Ghost guides us, and Church teaching guides us as well.

“Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances.” Proverbs 25:11

Source: biblehub.com/proverbs/25-11.htm

Ed

With all due respect, I offer you this link:

catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47&bible_chapter=7

 

[edwest2]

Ed, does it not occur to you that I do ask God for help with my failings and that I am guided by the Holy Spirit and Church teachings?

It is truly unfortunate that, on the internet, we cannot really get to know each other as if we were in in the same room. No offense meant.

Best,
Ed

 

[HCTC]

It is truly unfortunate that, on the internet, we cannot really get to know each other as if we were in in the same room. No offense meant.

Best,
Ed

No offense taken. Peace be with you.

 

[Sy_Noe]

What you have said is appallingly inaccurate and reactionary, given the overwhelming number of loving homes and families that have been created. Perhaps you might want to visit and see for yourself how children are doing in same sex families. It makes a difference when you actually know people and can see how good things are as they create a home together.

And perhaps you would want to compare it with abuses done by biological mothers and fathers.

But that is beside the point. The point, as we keep going back to, is the Cardinal’s statement that good, stable relationships make for good homes and families. And when we encourage such stability, it is a good thing for everyone involved.

I agree. That particular post surprised me as well. But anyway I think of the children in good homes anchored by same-sex parents in loving, secure relationships. And wonder how it would be better if they were not adopted and given a loving. nurturing home by their parents. I personally don’t see how it would be better for them not to have been adopted.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Honestly, more than my neighbors’ failings, I am concerned with my own lack of virtue - specifically my own lack of charity towards others and the difficulty that I have being truly humble.

Everyone should be concerned with the sate of their own soul, but that doesn’t mean we should watch our brethren toss themselves into Hell without trying to save them. It is a lack of charity to not admonish sinners, which is one of the spiritual works of mercy.

 

[edwest2]

Everyone should be concerned with the sate of their own soul, but that doesn’t mean we should watch our brethren toss themselves into Hell without trying to save them. It is a lack of charity to not admonish sinners, which is one of the spiritual works of mercy.

Yes, you’re right. I personally don’t understand the assumption that gay couples’ home lives are automatically going to be stable. Gay divorce is occurring, so I think it’s fair to say that assuming there will be automatic stability is assuming too much. I’m not directing my thoughts at any poster in particular.

Peace,
Ed

 

[exnihilo]

Cardinal Schönborn spoke in the interview about a gay friend of his who, after many temporary relationships, is now in a stable relationship. “It’s an improvement,” he said. They share “a life, they share their joys and sufferings, they help one another. It must be recognised that this person took an important step for his own good and the good of others, even though it certainly is not a situation the Church can consider ‘regular’.”

What exactly is a ‘stable relationship’? In this day and age what is a permanent relationship? Not even marriages today have permanency. At this point civil marriage is nothing more than a temporary love registry. I don’t see any real benefit from being so enrolled.

Well, when out of wedlock pregnancy is no longer stigmatized, we get a lot more unwed pregnancies. When fornication is not stigmatized, we get more fornication. We get more fatherless children. When pornography is not stigmatized, we get more porn. When adultery is not stigmatized, we get more adultery. When abortion is not stigmatized, we get more abortion.

When chastity is stigmatized, we get a hook-up culture. When faithfulness is denigrated, we get more divorce.

Is it merciful to not stigmatize that which causes harm to individuals and society?

Excellent question that I’ve been pondering. Can you get men to change when there is no stigma associated with their evil acts? Does being a good Christian mean ignoring human nature and eliminating social pressure?

 

[edwest2]

What exactly is a ‘stable relationship’? In this day and age what is a permanent relationship? Not even marriages today have permanency. At this point civil marriage is nothing more than a temporary love registry. I don’t see any real benefit from being so enrolled.

Excellent question that I’ve been pondering. Can you get men to change when there is no stigma associated with their evil acts? Does being a good Christian mean ignoring human nature and eliminating social pressure?

We cannot ignore who we are. Man has not changed in any fundamental way. Much good has been brought by just laws which encourage restraint against those bad parts of our natures. Sure, we have things that did not exist 2,000 years ago but without those things, we are still the same. Social, and self-correction, are good things. When I was growing up and did something wrong in public, it was perfectly OK for a total stranger to tell me, “That’s wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself.” We need shared values and solutions that have stood the test of time.

Pope Benedict:

"If we cannot have common values, common truths, sufficient communication on the essentials of human life–how to live how to respond to the great challenges of human life–then true society becomes impossible."

Commentary by the Practical Catholic:

"How true this is. Where there is no communication, no culture, no shared experience, there is no society; because there is no people. There remains only a vast and foreboding, unforgiving sea of individuals ready to crash upon each other and the world with the slightest wind. Without a common basis, we have not the vaulted pluralism we’re taught to embrace, but Babel, in all the confusion and madness of a society with no binding forces. Already we are seeing the tensions of this fragmentation breaking out across cultures.

“Without common values and truths, such as in the socieites we find ourselves in, we find the fabric of society torn like Joseph’s cloak, by a great many tribes which would like to lay claim to the title of favored. Leftists, conservatives, anarchists, nihilists, secularists, objectivists, the shallow, the entertainers, the entertained, all vying for control against each other. Tribalism can indeed spawn differentiation, but without some common ground, and in the face of increasing jargon not only in the academies but in the cultures; we shall be left with madness. In the end this tribalism can only result in the decline of all their claims, and the alienation of one from the other. Babel is the happenstance when society tries to become God.”

---

So, what we have now is tribalism - “My will be done” and “get out of my way.”

Ed

 

[HCTC]

Everyone should be concerned with the sate of their own soul, but that doesn’t mean we should watch our brethren toss themselves into Hell without trying to save them. It is a lack of charity to not admonish sinners, which is one of the spiritual works of mercy.

Just to be clear, it is your belief that, without being asked, it is the duty of every sinner to warn, counsel and advise other individual sinners, as well as any category of sinners, about how they should stop sinning?

Or did you rather intend that we should pray for other sinners? Did you intend that we should be good neighbors and set an example for them of Christian love and acceptance - such as not gossiping about them and their families?

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Just to be clear, it is your belief that, without being asked, it is the duty of every sinner to warn, counsel and advise other individual sinners, as well as any category of sinners, about how they should stop sinning?

Or did you rather intend that we should pray for other sinners? Did you intend that we should be good neighbors and set an example for them of Christian love and acceptance - such as not gossiping about them and their families?

Everything must be done with prudency. We should always pray for sinners and ensure that we are setting an edifying example, but we should, at appropriate times, admonish sinners directly. No one is ever going to ask for someone to correct their way of life, so we have to do it by our own accord when appropriate. Also, we must ensure that our charity for the sinner is not perceived as a condoning of their sinful way of life.

 

[exnihilo]

We cannot ignore who we are. Man has not changed in any fundamental way. Much good has been brought by just laws which encourage restraint against those bad parts of our natures. Sure, we have things that did not exist 2,000 years ago but without those things, we are still the same. Social, and self-correction, are good things. When I was growing up and did something wrong in public, it was perfectly OK for a total stranger to tell me, “That’s wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself.” We need shared values and solutions that have stood the test of time.

Even when I was a kid there was still some allowance for strangers setting you straight. Maybe there still is but the things they set you straight for aren’t grave moral evils but trifles?

 

[JimG]

The article originally linked talked about recognizing the good even in essentially disordered relationships:

“The Church’s ministers, the cardinal said, should recognise what is good where it is found. For example, he said, a civil marriage is better than simply living together, because it signifies a couple has made a formal, public commitment to one another. “Instead of talking about everything that is missing, we can draw close to this reality, noting what is positive in this love that is establishing itself.””

He wasn’t limiting the discussion to homosexual relationships. I think we have to recognize that our current culture is steeped and saturated, totally immersed, in sexual disorder, of which same sex relationships and gay marriage are simply the most recent manifestation.

A few generations ago, parents would not have looked upon cohabitation by their children with significant others with equanimity. Now they do. They would not have shrugged their shoulders at a hook-up culture on college campuses, or at middle school kids engaging in sex. Now, it’s regarded as just something that happens, something normal, the way things are. They would have been outraged at the common availability of porn, and at the poisoning of the children’s mind and imagination from an early age. Now, it’s not much of a big deal.

The culture has fallen so far, so fast, that now we are limited to looking for the ‘good’ in fornication, in broken families, in sodomy, and in every possible deviation from the good. I have to wonder just how successful that project can be in reforming the culture. We’re saying in effect, the culture has gone down the drain and us with it, but let’s look for the good in that.

 

[HCTC]

Everything must be done with prudency. We should always pray for sinners and ensure that we are setting an edifying example, but we should, at appropriate times, admonish sinners directly. No one is ever going to ask for someone to correct their way of life, so we have to do it by our own accord when appropriate. Also, we must ensure that our charity for the sinner is not perceived as a condoning of their sinful way of life.

With all due respect, I send you this link to help you understand why I will not be admonishing any adults unrelated to me:

catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47&bible_chapter=7

(I do consider my adult children fair game. My grandchildren are too sweet to require any admonishing.)

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

With all due respect, I send you this link to help you understand why I will not be admonishing anyone:

catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47&bible_chapter=7

Our Lord was condemning hypocritical judgment, not judging in general. In St. Matthew vii. 4 “Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?”, Our Lord was speaking of hypocrisy in which we correct the minor faults of others while we are committing the same faults even to a greater degree. Our Lord further explains what He is saying in the next verse: “Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye”. It is clear from the part in which Our Lord says “then shalt thou see to cast out the mote of thy brother’s eye” that we are permitted to judge, just as long as it is without hypocrisy since we won’t have any effect if it is.

There are other verses in the Bible in which we are actually told to judge and admonish sinners. In the Epistle of St. James v. 19-20 “My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.”

In Ezechiel iii. 18-19 " If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul." You may read more here, in particular the subtitle Judge Not Lest You Be Judged Judge Not - Tim Staples