Standing After Lamb of God

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puzzleannie:
If the purpose is to demonstrate dissent to the decrees of your bishop, that is bad and outweighs any ‘reverential’ component. Disregard of Christ’s representative on earth in the person of the bishop is disregard of Christ himself.
This is, ultimately, why I stand. In reading the Early Fathers and the Saints, I came to realize that we must follow our bishop rather than our own feelings in such matters. Unless what the bishop commands constitutes true apostacy, we are bound to follow his instruction.
 
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coton_lover:
I and my family do not go to Mass to be with the community. We are there for Jesus only, not for the community.
I wonder where you learned religion. The Church has repeatedly said that it is the community which worships at Mass. You might try listening to the prayers that are actually being said.
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coton_lover:
BTW: I suffer everytime I go to Mass. I am a convert to the faith, and I suffer everytime I see some new Protestantization that is introduced into the Church.
You lack of knowledge of the history of the Church liturgically is showing. It would help if you didn’t simply brand something Protestant, just because it doesn’t fit with your particular view of the Catholic Church, and the Roman rite.
 
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coton_lover:
I really believe it should be an option if I want to kneel or stand in respect to my Lord. I guess I am going to have to write my bishop and Mahony that I believe they are wrong not letting people kneel if they would like to. I know I am within my right to tell them that there is nothing wrong with people kneeling at this time. I believe there is no disunity if I and my family kneel.

And then Unity?? I and my family do not go to Mass to be with the community. We are there for Jesus only, not for the community. When I die, the community won’t be behind me to back me up in front of Jesus, it will be just me. If I go to purgatory, then their prayers will help me, but not at my judgement.

Stand in suffering obedience and, while you do so, pray for a return to the long-standing practice of kneeling.
BTW: I suffer everytime I go to Mass. I am a convert to the faith, and I suffer everytime I see some new Protestantization that is introduced into the Church.
As far as I’m concerned we all have options. There is no Liturgy police … (but, even if there were): kneel, stand or sit if you want! There is way too much emphasis on ‘community’ in the Church today … a good individual relationship with God is more important than being compliant with senseless uniformity. The Church prides itself on its ability to ‘aculturate’ in different areas of the world - except, it seems, when it comes to our country. Here the culture emphasises the importance of individualtiy and the corresponding accountability and responsibility for ones own actions. The Church would do well to aculturate accordingly - a healthy individual relationship with God, will by its very nature result in communal empathy and care of the indivdual for others in our Church (or civil) community. Expecting everyone to act alike, diminishes individuality and individual accountability and responsibility. History shows us that “Group think” is never healthy!
 
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theMutant:
I also live in the Archdiocese of Seattle. I wrote to Archbishop Brunett and asked him about why he changed the posture. He claimed that the majority of parishes in the Archdiocese were already standing after the Agnus Dei (a point with which I disagree based on the various parishes I had attended and many conversations I have had from others in different areas of the Archdiocese). He made two points. (1) Standing after the Agnus Die was never a part of the post-Vatican II rite of Mass. This is true. The continued practice of kneeling after the Agnus Dei was a hold-over from the 1962 Missal which was widely practiced in the US. This is shown in the GIRM where it states that the faithful kneel after unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise. Note, this section of #43 is particular to the Churches in the United States. (2) He also said that his intention was to bring this practice in line with the universal norms of the Church. I find this an odd contradiction since he routinely translates Holy Days to Sunday and allows for a substitute Penance on Fridays (choosing something other than abstaining from meat), both of which are exceptions to the universal norms of the Church.
Cafeteria Clergy!
 
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buffalo:
Cafeteria Clergy!
While I disagree with his excellency’s reasons, I don’t accuse him of being among the cafeteria clergy for the simple reason that he is abiding by the current rules and laws of the Church. He is the archbishop of Seattle and the GIRM clearly states that he has the authority to determine if we stand instead of kneel after the Agnus Dei. Additionally, the practice of moving the Holy Days to Sunday is one that has been granted by the Holy See.

I’ve encountered priests whom I believe deserve that description but, in this case, I don’t think it applies. 🙂
 
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coton_lover:
I believe there is no disunity if I and my family kneel.
The bishop is a successor of the Apostles and the appointed head of your local Church. If you read through the writings of the Early Church, you will see that unity with the Church cannot exist without unity and obedience to one’s own bishop. The only time that this is not the case is if the bishop is preaching heresy or is an apostate; which is a matter of the Pope’s judgment, not ours.
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coton_lover:
And then Unity?? I and my family do not go to Mass to be with the community. We are there for Jesus only, not for the community. When I die, the community won’t be behind me to back me up in front of Jesus, it will be just me. If I go to purgatory, then their prayers will help me, but not at my judgement.
You seem to be neglecting the help that their prayer can be to you in the present. Yes, our relationship to Jesus is a personal one but the Mass is the worship of the community - that is of the entire Church - and not of the individual. If you feel deprived (as I do) by the instruction to stand, then arrange to spend extra time before the Blessed Sacrament in kneeling adoration. You don’t have to wait for a scheduled Eucharistic Adoration - just go and kneel in front of the Tabernacle.
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coton_lover:
BTW: I suffer everytime I go to Mass. I am a convert to the faith, and I suffer everytime I see some new Protestantization that is introduced into the Church.
As do I. 🙂
 
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rcballi46:
As far as I’m concerned we all have options. There is no Liturgy police … (but, even if there were): kneel, stand or sit if you want! There is way too much emphasis on ‘community’ in the Church today … a good individual relationship with God is more important than being compliant with senseless uniformity. The Church prides itself on its ability to ‘aculturate’ in different areas of the world - except, it seems, when it comes to our country. Here the culture emphasises the importance of individualtiy and the corresponding accountability and responsibility for ones own actions. The Church would do well to aculturate accordingly - a healthy individual relationship with God, will by its very nature result in communal empathy and care of the indivdual for others in our Church (or civil) community. Expecting everyone to act alike, diminishes individuality and individual accountability and responsibility. History shows us that “Group think” is never healthy!
I don’t think that anyone is advocating anything close to what can be described as “group think,” however it is not, and has never been, the role of the Church to conform to the standards of any society. Instead, it is the role of the Church and her members to transform societies in accordance with the teachings of God. We have many options and freedoms in how we express our religious faith but the Mass is not one of them. The Mass is the collective act of worship of the universal Church and it is the Church that directs what is and is not permissible.

Expecting everyone to act alike in particular situations does not in any way diminish individuality and all countries realize this. That is why we have laws that require certain behaviors. In the US we drive on the right side of the road. This does not diminish our individuality. Requiring uniformity of posture does not diminish our individuality within the faith because there are so many other options in which we can express that individuality; such as this forum, individual prayers, religious celebrations outside of the Liturgy, etc.

Even less does it limit individual accountability for it is only when we are held accountable for our actions that our accountability can be measured. Are we obedient or not? I realize that obedience is a very hard concept for our overly individualistic society but it has always been a requirement of the Catholic faith. Yes, you will be held accountable before God in regard to how well you show your “communal empathy and care of the indivdual for others in our Church (or civil) community” but you will also be held accountable before God in how well you showed your willingness to be obedient to His appointed representatives on Earth - the Catholic bishops as successors to the Apostles.

Likewise with responsibility. We are bound to obedience to the Church and our bishop and we are responsible for living out our faith so that we can be an example to the world. We are responsible for showing the world what it means to be a follower of God and a member of His Church; which He suffered and died to establish for our salvation. To dismiss obedience to Christ’s Church and to His representative the bishop because it is not fashionable in our culture is not an act of responsibility. It is an act of irresponsibility which can not only harm one’s own spiritual communion with Christ, but can also harm that of others. As such, I would say that it can be considered an act of irresonsibility.
 
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