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wjp984
Guest
In the Eastern Rite, people don’t kneel so I don’t see a problem with not kneeling. However, are these people who are standing bowing during the consecration?
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fiat1122
Guest
Some pastors are still stuck in the 1970’s. SAD. Also, you may want to consider sending a LETTER o the Bishop, and making it clear to HIM, that the letter has been carbon copied (Cc) to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments in ROME! You see, this is why many people in growing ways are flocking to the Tridentine Indult Mass. Does your diocese have one parish with it?The universal posture during the Consecration is kneeling, unless it is physically impractical (i.e. broken glass on the floor), which is obviously not the case since you had been kneeling until now. Kneeling after the Agnus Dei is an option which the Bishop can decide, but during the Consecration, kneeling is the norm in every diocese worldwide. He cannot force you to remain standing, and if he publically harasses you on this, take it to the bishop. Perhaps obtaining a copy of the relevant GIRM section and showing him may help. I know what it is like when there are no parishes to flee to, so your “cross” in this matter may be simply to continue with this parish and hold your pastor in prayer. Charity is above all things, so please treat him accordingly. You will receive your reward some day for your acts of kindness in the face of this sort of adversity. I’ll keep you and your pastor in my prayers.
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palmas85
Guest
I’m not sure what you are talking about. I merely said that all heresies and apostates started locally with something small usually. Who is to say that something like this, if left unaddressed, would not grow into something else?. Once you open the door all knids of things can happen.
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St_Francis
Guest
Just to clarify a few points (I’ve been looking into this for a while!): Eastern Churches (Byzantine, etc.) do not kneel for the Consecration, but for a Western (Latin, NO) to say that therefore we do not have to is to begin to meld the two together in a way that has already been “discouraged” by the Church from the other side (the occasional tendency of Eastern churches to take on some Western traditions).
Anyway, there is a TLM, several hours away, which we are able to attend very rarely.
I’ll try the letter-writing, altho I worked for a long long time on something with the pastor and in the end, he got what he wanted through some sleight of hand, which is why I have not felt encouraged about approaching the hierarchy. Who knows? Rome might listen. I just have this image in my mind of all the millions of letters they must receive…
Anyway, there is a TLM, several hours away, which we are able to attend very rarely.
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gelsbern
Guest
Only for the Latin Rite. You will find that the Eastern Rites in union with Rome like the Maronite and others stand during the consecration. They also stand in the Eastern Orthodox churches during the consecration as well.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I personally do not kneel when attending certain Eastern Divine Liturgies. Because you are not supposed to kneel during certain Eastern Divine Liturgies, in some Rites you do kneel. However you are required to kneel if you are physically able during a Western Mass in the United States. It is important to remember where you are at and not impose Eastern practice in Western Liturgy and Western practice in Eastern Liturgy. Each have their own set of liturgical norms.
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
We must be careful not to introduce matter proper to one rite into another rite. Kneeling is not practiced in most Eastern Rites, but that is irrelevant to whether it is required in the Latin Rite. The only reason for not kneeling, other than those provided for in the GIRM, is a political one. Many were educated in seminary to believe that the Church was in the Dark Ages until Vatican II "sung a new Church into being " (as that heretical hymn says), and anything that smacks of “pre-Vatican” theology should be purged from the liturgy, whether it be smells n’ bells, kneeling, artwork, vestments, or the concept of the Mass as a Holy Sacrifice instead of a picnic. These guys are just so “pre-Trent”!
With regard to writing the bishop, it would unfortunately appear that in the chanceries of some dioceses, there are people who filter the bishop’s mail for complaints against their (or the bishop’s) pet theologies, and chances are he won’t receive your letter at all. Your best bet is to track him down, at a confirmation Mass, for example, and give the letter to him personally, while charitably describing the situation to him. It may work, it may not, but at least he is aware of the problem, or is aware that the parishioners are aware of it. The Cc. to Rome is a nice, though threatening, touch, but I’d strongly advise you to wait for the bishop’s response, or lack thereof, before appealing to higher authority.
With regard to writing the bishop, it would unfortunately appear that in the chanceries of some dioceses, there are people who filter the bishop’s mail for complaints against their (or the bishop’s) pet theologies, and chances are he won’t receive your letter at all. Your best bet is to track him down, at a confirmation Mass, for example, and give the letter to him personally, while charitably describing the situation to him. It may work, it may not, but at least he is aware of the problem, or is aware that the parishioners are aware of it. The Cc. to Rome is a nice, though threatening, touch, but I’d strongly advise you to wait for the bishop’s response, or lack thereof, before appealing to higher authority.
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Maureen_Fiore
Guest
I have attended a church where the whole congregation stood during the Consecration. I refused to do that just like I refuse to receive on the hand.
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YinYangMom
Guest
As with all matters which disturb our peace, the peace Christ confers upon us at each mass, we offer it up and let it go.
I know this is easier said than done, but with practice it really does get easier.
The saints were obedient to their leaders, even those saints who had conversations with Christ or Mary…we are all called to obedience…
and prayer, of course. It seems you are obliged to follow the instructions of your bishop as he is operating within the GIRM. What you do with your emotional state is to come to terms with this phase God has you in at the moment. You write to your bishop and make sure he sees the ‘cc’ line going to Rome, as the other poster suggested, but in the meantime you attend mass, you remain standing.
You teach your children to respect and obey the directives of the bishop - but also teach them that what the bishop in your parish is asking of his flock **is **different from what other parishes do. You won’t have the answers to ‘why?’ which will follow, but the lesson to be taught is that the Church confers upon the bishops authority, and we faithful, are called to respect that authority. If the bishop is in error, then the sin falls upon him…you must all pray for him. But if you disobey the bishop, then the sin falls on you - and then onto your children, should they follow your teaching.
It’s a fine line but a critical moral teaching moment, one which reinforces your own teaching authority over your children.
It’s also a great way to offer up your pain and anguish for the souls in purgatory.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I think you missed something here “It seems you are obliged to follow the instructions of your bishop as he is operating within the GIRM.”
Since the Bishop is NOT operating within the authority granted him by the GIRM, there is no obligation to follow his instructions when they go against the instruction from Rome. We must also teach children that sometimes even Bishops become self-serving and that it is very important that we as Catholic faithful know and understand what is and is not correct, what is and is not allowed. We should be able to trust our spiritual leaders, however it seems in some liturgical matters we are being led astray by some of them.
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St_Francis
Guest
OK, my bishop is within the GIRM by asking us to stand for the Agnus Dei; the *priest *is asking us to stand for the Consecration which he is not supposed to do, but the bishop is not doing anything about it.
Another bishop was mentioned by another poster to be asking people to stand for the Consecration, but I don’t know anything about that, and the parishioners mentioned in that context were upset that they were supposed to stand during the Agnus Dei.
The quiz will be next Friday
I must say that I really appreciate everyone’s replies, because if nothing else, I feel a lot more cheerful
Another bishop was mentioned by another poster to be asking people to stand for the Consecration, but I don’t know anything about that, and the parishioners mentioned in that context were upset that they were supposed to stand during the Agnus Dei.
The quiz will be next Friday
I must say that I really appreciate everyone’s replies, because if nothing else, I feel a lot more cheerful
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coeyannie
Guest
Kneel if you want to kneel. Sit where the priest can’t see you, if that would help. I get so tired of all the politics with the Bishop, his pet priests, etc. It’s enough to gag a maggot. I attend parishes where I know there are orthodox priests, and stay away from the others because it makes me crazy. 
I am lucky to live in a pretty big metropolitan area and I have a few parishes to select from. Let’s pray for our priests and Bishops, especially those who lead their flock astray.
I am lucky to live in a pretty big metropolitan area and I have a few parishes to select from. Let’s pray for our priests and Bishops, especially those who lead their flock astray.
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Corki
Guest
ok, ok we are talking GIRM here. The “R” being for Roman.
I don’t think the OP was referring to an Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy.
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EBSSTF4
Guest
Our church was built with an extra row of seats along two sides about 10ft behind the last row of pews. I imagine these where installed to avoid people standing if they had nowhere to sit. They have no kneelers so they sit or stand. Often people will sit there even if plenty of seats are open. I feel this is disrespectful, lazy, a way to avoid kneeling. It should not be seen as an “inconvenience” but an honor, the appropriate way to worship.
A little off topic but needed to get this off my chest.
A little off topic but needed to get this off my chest.
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8640
Guest
Kneeling is not the universal norm. The United States has a special indult to kneel. It is not a universal norm but a local norm. Which means those people in the US should be kneeling during the consecration.
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Servulus
Guest
In specifying postures for the faithful, Section 43 of the GIRM states, in part:
“They should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented by reasons of health, lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason. However, those who do not kneel at the consecration ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”
This would appear to make it the universal norm.
Hope that helps.
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8640
Guest
Are you reading the GIRM for the US? Because that is what is most readily available to us. It is printed by the USCCB and is in a black cover.
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Servulus
Guest
I was using the electronic version downloaded from the NCCB. Here’s it’s official heading:
An English Language Study Translation of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani
Prepared by the NCCB Secretariat for the Liturgy
This edition incorporates approved adaptations for the U. S., however, the citation quoted is not affected by those.
Hope that helps.
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Andrewcarey
Guest
The Church in Midland where we went for the ordaination that they does the same thing because Fr. James Bessert screwed things up. The Church is St. Bridget in Midland,Michigan but the music (hymns) was acceptable because they used the organ and stuff and before Mass, they sang Panis Angleicus and Ave Maria but still screwed things up.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I am upset because the pastor recently started telling us that we must stand for the Consecration. He has already made it Perfectly Clear that he doesn’t welcome any questions about anything that he does.
He seems to be quite popular with the bishop, who also has not said anything about it.
The problem is that the next-nearest Mass is so far away that it is even more difficult for us to get to (living in the rural South presents some problems for Catholics
I just don’t want my children exposed to this casual attitude towards the Eucharist (the other church is much better). There are other problems, but this one is the worst,and it just makes me feel sick that he is “teaching” that our comfort comes before reverence to Our Lord.
It seems your pastor is clearly going against what the Church intends. From reading the following —kneeling is what we are to be doing.
Instrumentum Laboris
vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html
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Some responses are very encouraging, however. Based on the guidelines set down in The General Instruction on the Roman Missal, diverse initiatives have been undertaken to ensure that sacred spaces in already existent Churches and those under construction be true places of prayer and adoration, where art and iconography become instruments to serve liturgical needs. For example, in some Churches, kneelers have returned along with the practice of the faithful kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer. Tabernacles, previously not clearly visible, have again been placed in the sanctuary or in a prominent place. The planning of new Churches is providing greater prominence to art, decoration, vestments and sacred vessels…
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