Standing during the Great Amen

[TrekFan]

Howdy.

At my parish, there has been a recent development of people standing during the great amen of the Eucharistic prayer just before reciting the Lord’s prayer. They start holding hands and looking at each other smiling, and whether intentional or not, seem to miss the importance of the “amen.”

According to the GIRM, the congregation is supposed to remain kneeling until after the great amen. When I confronted others in my parish about this, I was told that the Bishop authorized this posture. Is he within his authority as a bishop to authorize something that is clearly not instructed in the GIRM?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

From the GIRM43. (snipped for space)

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

I can’t say what is going on at your parish,
but I will share something that is happening in my diocese.
It is becoming increasingly popular
hmmm:, they didn’t ask me my opinion though, or a lot of others in my area)
for the people to stand during the Eucharistic prayer- the whole thing!
Now, I don’t want to get into that debate, but suffice it to say, I have very strong feelings about this!

Anyway, when I asked about it, I was referred to this part of the GIRM,
though I was not given any information as to what constituted
***too many people or other good reason,
except that it the Pastor’s perogative ***to set the norm for his parish within the guidelines laid out by the Ordinary.

Regarding kneeling after the Agnus Dei, our Bishop has determined otherwise, and we stand. IMHO, what has happened is that with this directive,

and the rest of paragragh 43 of the GIRM

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

some of the clergy have interpreted these words in such a way that they feel they are allowed to make changes to suit personal tastes.:sad_yes:

 

[TrekFan]

Thanks for your response. Part of your snippet from paragraph 43 says the faithful may stand “on occassion” rather than making standing a normal practice.

In regard to the other snippet you posted, it still says that the Deacons or Priests may only instruct the faithful to do what is instructed in the missal. Standing during the entire Eucharistic prayer is not indicated in the missal.

I guess what I am looking for is some indication from the Holy See that the Diocesan Bishop is within his authority to change something that is clearly instructed in the GIRM. My reason for asking is because I am curious about how much weight the missal actually carries. If the missal must be agreed on by the entire bishops conference and then signed off by the Holy See, and still Bishops are not required to follow it’s instructions, then what is the point of all this?

 

[BornAgain2010]

Thanks for your response. Part of your snippet from paragraph 43 says the faithful may stand “on occassion” rather than making standing a normal practice.

In regard to the other snippet you posted, it still says that the Deacons or Priests may only instruct the faithful to do what is instructed in the missal. Standing during the entire Eucharistic prayer is not indicated in the missal.

I guess what I am looking for is some indication from the Holy See that the Diocesan Bishop is within his authority to change something that is clearly instructed in the GIRM. My reason for asking is because I am curious about how much weight the missal actually carries. If the missal must be agreed on by the entire bishops conference and then signed off by the Holy See, and still Bishops are not required to follow it’s instructions, then what is the point of all this?

Go see the Bishop and ask him yourself. His answer will tell you ALOT.
But if and when, dont be so colorful as my comment
Be professional about it.

 

[Canto]

I was told that the Bishop authorized this posture. Is he within his authority as a bishop to authorize something that is clearly not instructed in the GIRM?

The GIRM lists where the Bishop can have some freedom, but the posture of the Eucharistic Prayer and thus the Great Amen is not one of those areas.

Canon Law states: The liturgical books, approved by the competent authority, are to be faithfully followed in the celebration of the sacraments. Accordingly,** no one **may on a personal initiative **add to or omit or alter anything **in those books (Canon 846 §1).

 

[5Loaves]

At my parish, there has been a recent development of people standing during the great amen of the Eucharistic prayer just before reciting the Lord’s prayer…

According to the GIRM, the congregation is supposed to remain kneeling until after the great amen. When I confronted others in my parish about this, I was told that the Bishop authorized this posture. Is he within his authority as a bishop to authorize something that is clearly not instructed in the GIRM?

You’re referring to GIRM

43. §3 In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.,

My own experience in my Latin parish is that we had instruction from two priests about this. For a period of months the people followed this and did remain kneeling. Gradually over time this changed. I firmly believe in this parish it is due to the gesture made by the cantor- that right arm raised upward meaning, normally “It’s your turn to sign now.” The pronounced swooping gesture the cantors in this parish makes at this point in the Mass seems to intentionally invite people to stand. I attend Mass in a number of other parishes in this Diocese, including at the Cathedral, and a Priory and in no other place do the people stand before the conclusion of the Great Amen. When I’ve been at Mass out of town I also have never seen the people stand until after the Great Amen.

I believe that when the new priest came to my parish and found the people doing this, he made the decision that there were many other fish to fry and has left it as it is.

Who told you that the Bishop authorized this? If it was anyone other than your priest I would question whether they have that right. I’m amazed at the many things people will claim have been approved which simply are the custom of a particular parish and left alone by the priest. who has decided there are other more critical issues to take on in terms of priorities.

 

[PLAT]

You’re referring to GIRM
Quote:
43. §3 In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.,

That’s what I am trying to figure out too. I have only attended a single mass in US, where people kneel until the great amen.
In Hong Kong and Singapore Dioceses (the latter arch-) we stand at “(proclaim the) mystery of faith”. I always wonder why the US has different rules to everywhere else…

 

[Crumpy]

I continue to believe that such inexplicable changes are meant to get people upset, and to distract from the sacredness of the Mass.

The only potential good that comes of it has nothing to do with propriety, but is meant to wake up people, who would otherwise be zoned out during this part of the Mass.

To me, the body language and significance of standing is lost, when we have to stand “for everything.” Christ is present every second of the Mass, there can be no right and wrong times to sit, stand, or kneel.

If there was controversy in my parish, I would take a pew where everyone could see me, and then I’d just do what I thought was right, to follow the GIRM.

When we installed a new bishop in our diocese several years ago, there was a visiting cardinal. He either sat or knelt the whole time, perhaps because of his health. But,he was definitely not in step with everyone else in Church, by a mile. That’s the alternate way to be. Make up your own rules, follow the GIRM.

The other thing about such local variations is that it is so easy to be “wrong.” When in doubt, follow the GIRM.

 

[laszlo]

I feel the problem to call the end of the doxology as ‘Great Amen’. Traditionally the center of the Canon and the whole Mass was the consecration of the bread and wine. The doxology and the accompanied elevation started to be emphasized and centralized only recently in the new form of the mass. The doxology is conclusion, not center, and in

Phil 2:[6] Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. [8] He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. [9] For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: [10] That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: [11] And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

We should not forget about the emptied Himself, humbled Himself, death of the cross

As for the standing until recently to kneel before God was the Catholic thing and to stand was the protestant thing. We shall see the good in the life of our protestant brothers and sister, but we are still Catholic and this means to follow the hierarchy against our initiatives, in this case to kneel as the GIRM says

 

[TrekFan]

Who told you that the Bishop authorized this? If it was anyone other than your priest I would question whether they have that right. I’m amazed at the many things people will claim have been approved which simply are the custom of a particular parish and left alone by the priest. who has decided there are other more critical issues to take on in terms of priorities.

The lady who runs the Liturgy Committee meetings told me that the Bishop approved this. I wrote him a letter weeks ago and have not heard back from him yet. Chances are good that I may not hear from him at all.

 

[TrekFan]

I feel the problem to call the end of the doxology as ‘Great Amen’. Traditionally the center of the Canon and the whole Mass was the consecration of the bread and wine. The doxology and the accompanied elevation started to be emphasized and centralized only recently in the new form of the mass. The doxology is conclusion, not center,

I hear you and I apologize It’s also off topic. I called it that because it is the conclusion of the Eucharistic prayer. I’ll stop doing that.

 

[TrekFan]

As for the standing until recently to kneel before God was the Catholic thing and to stand was the protestant thing. We shall see the good in the life of our protestant brothers and sister, but we are still Catholic and this means to follow the hierarchy against our initiatives, in this case to kneel as the GIRM says

Amen. But my question is this: If the bishop did indeed approve of this action, which clearly goes against what is written in the GIRM, where does one go from there? I’m not saying that I believe my bishop will write me back and say he approves of this. I can’t predict the future and I don’t want to assume anything without hearing from him first. I’m just wondering where a layperson like myself can go to pursue a matter further than the local bishop. For the record, I don’t plan on doing anything until I hear back from my bishop.

 

[laszlo]

Amen. But my question is this: If the bishop did indeed approve of this action, which clearly goes against what is written in the GIRM, where does one go from there? I’m not saying that I believe my bishop will write me back and say he approves of this. I can’t predict the future and I don’t want to assume anything without hearing from him first. I’m just wondering where a layperson like myself can go to pursue a matter further than the local bishop. For the record, I don’t plan on doing anything until I hear back from my bishop.

If the bishop authorizes it you shall accept his decision. And yes, until you hear his voice, you may presume that the liturgical committee just generalized the ‘other reason’ from the GIRM attributing that to the bishop.

I myself left my territorial church 3 years ago (and found a very reverent church what I attend now) for the applauding of human success during mass and for adlibiting. A few times when I attended masses at my territorial church I tried not to stand out from the others. I do not applaud but when they stand up I do so too.

You can write to the

Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

but they as first reflection will send your letter to the Ordanary (which in turn may help you to get answer)

 

[roadsend]

Are we supposed to stand after the choir finishes the first Amen or should we wait until after they sing all the rest of the Amens, Alleluias, Forever and evers etc?

 

[TheMc]

Are we supposed to stand after the choir finishes the first Amen or should we wait until after they sing all the rest of the Amens, Alleluias, Forever and evers etc?

I would stay kneeling until the amens are finished, but there should be no " Alleluias, Forevers, etc". I know of which Mass setting you are speaking of, and it should not be used.

3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.

59. The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently** distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy**.

I pray it will stop being used.

 

[MarkThompson]

Are we supposed to stand after the choir finishes the first Amen or should we wait until after they sing all the rest of the Amens, Alleluias, Forever and evers etc?

At the end of the entire thing.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Thanks for your response. Part of your snippet from paragraph 43 says the faithful may stand “on occassion” rather than making standing a normal practice.

In regard to the other snippet you posted, it still says that the Deacons or Priests may only instruct the faithful to do what is instructed in the missal. Standing during the entire Eucharistic prayer is not indicated in the missal.

I guess what I am looking for is some indication from the Holy See that the Diocesan Bishop is within his authority to change something that is clearly instructed in the GIRM. My reason for asking is because I am curious about how much weight the missal actually carries. If the missal must be agreed on by the entire bishops conference and then signed off by the Holy See, and still Bishops are not required to follow it’s instructions, then what is the point of all this?

Here is a link to the document Redemptionis Sacramentum. This may or may not give you some of the information you are looking for as to what a Bishop can and cannot do.

 

[I_Love_U_Jesus]

On the topic of changing the Liturgy at will, what parts are acceptable for ad-libs, whether they be additions or not? I am confused. Many of my pastors, though they do not seem to remove parts, seem to add snippets here and there. Perhaps we should not be legalistic and judge them for every thing they say that is not strictly by the book, but sometimes it just makes me feel uncomfortable.

Ah, I shall read this Redemptionis Sacramentum. That will no doubt help at least somewhat.

 

[5Loaves]

The lady who runs the Liturgy Committee meetings told me that the Bishop approved this. I wrote him a letter weeks ago and have not heard back from him yet. Chances are good that I may not hear from him at all.

Indeed you may never hear back from your bishop. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t heard your concern and may or may not get back to your priest about it.

The only time this comes up in my experience is when we are singing the Great Amen. In Mass without music at that time the Amen is so short no one gets up until it’s spoken and we are beginning the Our Father. Try to find peace knowing you have asked your ordinary for clarification.

 

[Deckie]

Several years ago ,probably for financial reasons,our parish stopped giving out mass pamphlets.On this was printed the whole mass,including readings.The mass was broken up into sections and directions printed where needed(stand,sit ,kneel etc)Then this stopped and now the people are all over the place and the Priests interpret the mass individually.I has got to the stage that the Mass was becoming a point of resentment in my life and I now go to a Chapel out of town where it is more traditional and said in the way it was designed
To me the mass deteriorated when the Church stopped the weekly missalettes