Standing for the National Anthem

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TeenCatholicGuy

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This is your warning. This is definitely a controversial topic, and if you don’t want to have any chance of being offended, please feel free to stop reading and not comment. If however you choose to keep reading, please understand a few things:
  1. You don’t need to read or comment on this thread’s contents.
  2. My question(s) apply to Canada only, and any other country’s laws don’t apply
  3. I’m not looking to start trouble. I also want to be able to have a fair and calm discussion. Please don’t say anything you wouldn’t say in front of Jesus (He’s inside and all around you, but still)
    Now that I’m clear: the topic I’m hoping to discuss.
Canada’s National Anthem.
I am a 15 year old Canadian, and I recently became aware of the irony and hypocricy of our National Anthem. I’ll be very thorough as I’m sure many of you arent Canadian or knowledgeable about Canadian Law.

My issue is whether I need to stand for the National Anthem.

Everyone at my Catholic School stands for the National Anthem and has no issue in it. However, I have recently spent some time thinking it over, and realized a few things about it.

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

I now see 2 big issues with it. 1) majority of the population isn’t native, the only true natives are Aboriginal People’s, not us European Immigrants. No matter how many generations have passed, we are still Immigrants.
  1. It’s sexist.
A 3rd reason why I don’t want to stand for it anymore is that we have treated our Aboriginal Peoples horribly, we as a country do nothing to fight ISIS directly (Trudeau called the air strikes off) and I could go on.

For these reasons, I don’t want to stand for the National Anthem. Feel free to argue w me, but it’s my opinion.

I feel that I am respecting our vets and the country by not standing for an anthem that is so flawed, and doesn’t represent Canadians.

Now to the legality:
School Board Policy claims that the Ontario Education act insists that students must stand. I have scanned the act, and haven’t found any provision that does so directly, but I could be wrong.

But, as Ontario is a Province, not the Federal Gov, it has power over School Boards, Education and policies related to that under the Confederation Act of 1867.

Ontario doesn’t have power over Religion, so neither do School Boards or Schools.

The Federal Gov could change that, but it would 1) take forever and 2) not happen under the current Liberal Gov.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is clear:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Canada

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
I’ll note that this charter is Federal Law, not Provincial.

Based on this, I believe that I cannot be forced to stand for O Canada if I object on the basis of Freedoms Of Consious, Religion, Thought, Belief, Opinion and Expression.

In this case, I hope the Charter overrules the Education Act

There is one section of the Education Act that states that students under 18 need parents to ask the Principal to excuse students from standing, but i believe that forcing students to stand is in violation of the Charter.

Forgive me for linking a possibly unreliable site, but it puts it pretty clear. kersplebedeb.com/posts/student-sits-through-national-anthem-gets-kicked-out-of-class-and-roughed-up/

I want to make a statement to the Principal.
I’d prefer not to make it an issue, but if I am thrown out of Class or Forced, that violates the Charter.

Please share your thoughts on all this below, try to be kinda nice ish? (Don’t kill me or get the thread shut down pls) but all opinions are welcome.

Am I right to not stand, and is the law on my side?

Lets have a great discussion!
 
Since it’s too late to edit: I’ll add this:

I need opinions on this. I could just be believing ****, but it’s what I believe.

Please, let us have a CALM and Interesting discussion about this.
 
majority of the population isn’t native, the only true natives are Aboriginal People’s, not us European Immigrants.
Click to expand...
if we stop and think about this: it is not true. people have always been on the move conquering others.

science believes life started in africa and expanded out from there (even tho i read europe is now trying to claim the birth-rite with an older fossil)

religious people believe life started in the garden of eden and expanded from there.

they may be the oldest immigrants or even the first but still they came from some place else
 
upant said:
if we stop and think about this: it is not true. people have always been on the move conquering others.

science believes life started in africa and expanded out from there (even tho i read europe is now trying to claim the birth-rite with an older fossil)

religious people believe life started in the garden of eden and expanded from there.

they may be the oldest immigrants or even the first but still they came from some place else
Click to expand...
Our native people’s have lived here for thousands of years. It’s safe to say it rightfully belonged to them. History shows they welcomed us, yet we treat them like ****.

That’s a reason why I’m planning on refusing to stand for the National Anthem.
 
  1. If you were born there, it’s your native land.
  2. “Sons” IMO is not sexist, it’s referring to children of the patria. Like using mankind to refer to all men and women: standard literary usage.
  3. It’s doubtful that your not standing will accomplish much for the indigenous people. You might be better advised to engage in some kind of political or charity work to benefit them.
    God bless.
.
 
TeenCatholicGuy said:
  1. majority of the population isn’t native, the only true natives are Aboriginal People’s, not us European Immigrants. No matter how many generations have passed, we are still Immigrants.
Click to expand...
That is ridiculous. My family has lived on this continent for generations now and owns land. By virtue of residency and birth, we are just as native as anyone else. Evidence also indicates Europeans discovered North America long before the Indians.
  1. It’s sexist.
Click to expand...
It is a line in a piece of poetry, get over it.
A 3rd reason why I don’t want to stand for it anymore is that we have treated our Aboriginal Peoples horribly, we as a country do nothing to fight ISIS directly (Trudeau called the air strikes off) and I could go on.
Click to expand...
The history of the world is one of conquest and competition for scarce resources. I make no apologies for the fact that my ancestors were stronger and better at this contest than any other group. If anything, we ought to be thankful that they discovered concepts such as human rights and the rule of law. Even if they did not live up to them perfectly, we their descendants can carry on and develop that glorious heritage.
For these reasons, I don’t want to stand for the National Anthem. Feel free to argue w me, but it’s my opinion.
Click to expand...
I feel that I am respecting our vets and the country by not standing for an anthem that is so flawed, and doesn’t represent Canadians.
Click to expand...
It is your right of freedom of expression not to stand for your country’s national anthem. However, many Canadians died for the rights held dear by your country. That anthem is for their sacrifice as well. If it was me, I would stand to show my respect for them and work on fixing the broken things in my country.
 
Viki63 said:
  1. If you were born there, it’s your native land.
  2. “Sons” IMO is not sexist, it’s referring to children of the patria. Like using mankind to refer to all men and women: standard literary usage.
  3. It’s doubtful that your not standing will accomplish much for the indigenous people. You might be better advised to engage in some kind of political or charity work to benefit them.
    God bless.
.
Click to expand...
I’m not trying to make a change.
All I’m planning on doing is refusing to stand for the anthem, which I hope is my Constitutional right.

The definitions of words isn’t really opinion based? I’ll respect you, but I respectfully disagree.

About the “native land”, the point is when you compare us to Aboriginal people, they’ve been here thousands of years. We’ve been here less then 400. We aren’t natives even if we are born here.
 
starshiptrooper said:
That is ridiculous. My family has lived on this continent for generations now and owns land. By virtue of residency and birth, we are just as native as anyone else. Evidence also indicates Europeans discovered North America long before the Indians.
Click to expand...
They aren’t “Indians”.
It is a line in a piece of poetry, get over it.
Click to expand...
Not very poetic, doesn’t follow any of the major poetic rules.
The history of the world is one of conquest and competition for scarce resources. I make no apologies for the fact that my ancestors were stronger and better at this contest than any other group. If anything, we ought to be thankful that they discovered concepts such as human rights and the rule of law. Even if they did not live up to them perfectly, we their descendants can carry on and develop that glorious heritage.
Click to expand...
I’m talking about hatred and racism in the last few decades and beyond towards Aboriginals.

It’s 2017, humanity has advanced sooo much, it’s honestly not something to feel “pride” for. Like how it doesn’t matter if you were a head cheerleader in highschool if you are 60.
it is your right of freedom of expression not to stand for your country’s national anthem. However, many Canadians died for the rights held dear by your country. That anthem is for their sacrifice as well. If it was me, I would stand to show my respect for them and work on fixing the broken things in my country.
Click to expand...
I hope to refuse to stand, as respect for them. They fought and died for me. Now, we shame them by allowing such solvable issues to exist. That’s the true disrespect.
 
TeenCatholicGuy said:
The definitions of words isn’t really opinion based? .
Click to expand...
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Words have definitions. It’s not a matter of opinion.
I’m not trying to make a change.
All I’m planning on doing is refusing to stand for the anthem, which I hope is my Constitutional right. .
Click to expand...
I guess it is. But there are good things about your country too, so how are people going to know what aspect of it you are objecting to? Or if it’s just for self expression, and it doesn’t matter what others think. you can go ahead and do it.

.
 
Viki63 said:
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Words have definitions. It’s not a matter of opinion.

I guess it is. But there are good things about your country too, so how are people going to know what aspect of it you are objecting to? Or if it’s just for self expression, and it doesn’t matter what others think. you can go ahead and do it.

.
Click to expand...
I’m objecting to the wrong. I’m objecting to Abortion, to Abuse of Aboriginals, Being a Coward against ISIS and the current’ government’s love of ‘alternative facts’.
 
… subscribed. I am lurking but not responding as I am not Canadian. Given we have had the same issue in the USA of people not standing for the national anthem for various reasons I am interested in the opinions on the same issue in another country

Also, the moderators set forum rules not any individual poster.

Mary.
 
TeenCatholicGuy said:
I’m objecting to the wrong. I’m objecting to Abortion, to Abuse of Aboriginals, Being a Coward against ISIS and the current’ government’s love of ‘alternative facts’.
Click to expand...
You waited until your seventh post on this thread to state this. Your original post was just quoting Canadian law and your only beef was the words ‘native’ and ‘son’ :confused:

Where in the anthem does it mention abortion and ISIS (which by the way did not exist when the anthem was written’:rolleyes:

By the way I live in ONtario as well and every Canada day we sing the national anthem after mass. And although I am not a super patriotic person, I stand. And this year it hit me, the word ‘God’ is used in the anthem and I just wanted to sing in in a loud voice. ‘God keep our land’,.

You may be too young to remember this but a few years ago, it was all over the news, the anthem should be change because of the word ‘God’ was offensive. So if you want to start disrespecting the anthem and giving power to the people who oppose the wording, you have just increased the chances of the word ‘God’ being axed out of our anthem.

Seriously, do you think making an immature show about sitting during the anthem is the way to accompiish anything?

Angie
 
TeenCatholicGuy said:
I’m not trying to make a change.
All I’m planning on doing is refusing to stand for the anthem, which I hope is my Constitutional right.

The definitions of words isn’t really opinion based? I’ll respect you, but I respectfully disagree.

About the “native land”, the point is when you compare us to Aboriginal people, they’ve been here thousands of years. We’ve been here less then 400. We aren’t natives even if we are born here.
Click to expand...
You are seriously misunderstanding the meaning of the word “native” in the anthem. By definition you are native of the place where you were born. None less that the Oxford dictionary says so in its first definition of “native”: "A person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not. ‘a native of Montreal’ " So if you were born in Canada it is your native land. Doesn’t matter if your parents only set foot on Canadian soil 10 minutes before your birth, if you were born here you are a native Canadian.

There’s a difference between a native Canadian and a “native” which the Oxford defines as "dated, offensive A non-white original inhabitant of a place, as regarded by European colonists or travellers.* 'he led an expedition to New Guinea and was wounded by a native’s spear’ " *
 
TeenCatholicGuy said:
About the “native land”, the point is when you compare us to Aboriginal people, they’ve been here thousands of years. We’ve been here less then 400. We aren’t natives even if we are born here.
Click to expand...
Stop thinking of people in terms of groups. “They’ve” done this, “we’ve” done that. People are individuals. They’re more than just members of some racial group. If you’re born somewhere, that’s your native country. It doesn’t matter where your great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather happened to live.

What about members of groups who, generally speaking, immigrated to Canada long after white people? Are they less Canadian? For example:

When I was in the (US) Army, I was deployed to Afghanistan and ran into a company of Canadian soldiers. I’m from Michigan, and my wife is Canadian, so I was BSing with them for a bit. One of them was of East Asian ancestry. Didn’t have any discernible accent, and other than having East Asian features, was indistinguishable from any of the other Canadians whose ancestors came from Europe. Same cultural mannerisms, etc. Would you tell that guy he’s not really Canadian, just because his grandparents were born in Korea or China or whatever? Even though he clearly feels Canadian, and considers it his home, so much so that he’s willing to deploy to a warzone for Canada?

Finally, as SST noted, groups have been killing, pillaging, and generally being a-holes to each other since the dawn of recorded history. The aboriginal groups that Europeans forced off their lands did the same thing to other aboriginal groups. I’m not saying that makes it right, obviously, but just about every group in history has taken it’s turn being the abused and being the abuser.

Just my two cents.
 
Viki63 said:
  1. If you were born there, it’s your native land.
  2. “Sons” IMO is not sexist, it’s referring to children of the patria. Like using mankind to refer to all men and women: standard literary usage.
  3. It’s doubtful that your not standing will accomplish much for the indigenous people. You might be better advised to engage in some kind of political or charity work to benefit them.
    God bless.
.
Click to expand...
Of course, in the U.S., if one is born in, say, Massachusetts, you are a native of America - but you are most certainly NOT a “native American.” The PC gods must be served.
 
I’m not going to comment on the whole “native” business because I’m not Canadian and I think if you’re talking about Canada, that’s an issue for Canadians to discuss.

However, with respect to “sons”, when I was a child and women’s rights was all over the evening news I asked my mom why we would sing hymns and songs referring to “man” and “men” and so forth and it didn’t say “women”. She explained that the songs actually were referring to mankind, which was all humans, which included women. I accepted that answer and henceforth never worried too much if a song said “man, men, brothers, sons” etc. or “humans, people, children” etc. in the gender neutral sense. I think people get way overly hung up about a word or two in a song when there are real issues, such as equal pay and equal job opportunities, to be concerned about, and when I pick the women’s rights hill that I want to die on it’s not going to be over some song that says “sons”.

One of my favorite Todd Rundgren songs is called “Sons of 1984” and it contains that line as a lyric in the chorus of the song, which is a call for unity and moving forward as a society, basically. I don’t feel left out when he sings it because he didn’t write it as “Sons and Daughters of 1984”, and neither does any one of the dozens of women I see enthusiastically singing along with Todd and myself and the rest of the audience each time he plays it in concert.

So I think your refusing to stand over “sons” being sexist is petty and a bit immature.
 
From what I’ve heard, the line “In all thy sons command” is honouring the Canadian soldiers (virtually all male) who died serving in World War I. If you can’t stand for any other part, at least stand up for this line. Please salute those men who died brutal deaths in cold, muddy wastelands of death so that we could be free.

Do not stand for the evil, stand for the good. Stand for those Canadians who have been good to the aboriginals. Stand for those Canadians who oppose abortion.

I myself am disappointed in our nation. Abortion, euthanasia, constant LGBT agendas, a government that wants to control so much. All of these keep me from being patriotic of our government.

But I can still be patriotic about our country.

A country is not only made up of its government, but also its people.

God bless.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I’m not going to comment on the whole “native” business because I’m not Canadian and I think if you’re talking about Canada, that’s an issue for Canadians to discuss.

However, with respect to “sons”, when I was a child and women’s rights was all over the evening news I asked my mom why we would sing hymns and songs referring to “man” and “men” and so forth and it didn’t say “women”. She explained that the songs actually were referring to mankind, which was all humans, which included women. I accepted that answer and henceforth never worried too much if a song said “man, men, brothers, sons” etc. or “humans, people, children” etc. in the gender neutral sense. I think people get way overly hung up about a word or two in a song when there are real issues, such as equal pay and equal job opportunities, to be concerned about, and when I pick the women’s rights hill that I want to die on it’s not going to be over some song that says “sons”.

One of my favorite Todd Rundgren songs is called “Sons of 1984” and it contains that line as a lyric in the chorus of the song, which is a call for unity and moving forward as a society, basically. I don’t feel left out when he sings it because he didn’t write it as “Sons and Daughters of 1984”, and neither does any one of the dozens of women I see enthusiastically singing along with Todd and myself and the rest of the audience each time he plays it in concert.

So I think your refusing to stand over “sons” being sexist is petty and a bit immature.
Click to expand...
Nowadays it would have to be called “Sons and Daughters and Everything In Between of 1984.”
 
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