Standing from Lord's Prayer thru Communion

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swampfox

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In my new parish, it appears the “norm” is to stand from the Lord’s Prayer to the time you go to Communion, even during the “Lord I am not worthy” I kneel during that prayer and immediately afterwards despite the norm, because that is the norm in other parishes in the diocese and frankly because it just seems more reverential. Is this new parish “norm” legitimate? Another question concerns Communion. In my parish and others I’ve gone to recently, it appears that nearly all attendees receive Communion. Communion seems to be treated as an entitlement. I thought you had to be in a state of grace (i.e., without mortal sin) to be “entitled” to receive Communion. I do know that when Confession is offered on Saturdays, the Church is empty.
 
Thanks–It appears from your link that the new parish practice is not legitimate in the U.S., since other parishes in the same diocese adopt the typical US tradition of kneeling after lamb of God–

What about the Communion as an entitlement issue?
 
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swampfox:
In my new parish, it appears the “norm” is to stand from the Lord’s Prayer to the time you go to Communion, even during the “Lord I am not worthy” I kneel during that prayer and immediately afterwards despite the norm, because that is the norm in other parishes in the diocese and frankly because it just seems more reverential. Is this new parish “norm” legitimate? Another question concerns Communion. In my parish and others I’ve gone to recently, it appears that nearly all attendees receive Communion. Communion seems to be treated as an entitlement. I thought you had to be in a state of grace (i.e., without mortal sin) to be “entitled” to receive Communion. I do know that when Confession is offered on Saturdays, the Church is empty.
There are quite a few older people in my parish who erroneously feel that they no longer need to make use of the sacrament of penance. Why? Because a dissidant former pastor told them so in the 1970’s.

Thankfully one of our assistant pastors now preaches on the need to go to confession. I haven’t even heard it mentioned from the ambo in several years by our other priests…

*John 20:22-23 – And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. *If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
 
Regarding the “Communion as entitlement” issue, our church is pretty much the same way. I blame the pastor, whom I have never once heard preach the necessity of Confession. In fact, this past Lent, when the parish made an extra effort to offer Reconciliation more often than Saturdays, the pastor never once spoke of the yearly requirement to confess mortal sins.
 
I saw a man last week receive the Eucharist after kneeling , whats that signify?

Also im trying to do reserach on older or conservative catholic traidition, beliefs and practicies, any reading suggestions?
 
When I went to Calif, I went to two different churches in Ventura. Apparently the ArchDiocese of L.A. had just handed down a new edict that they are to stand before and after communion. They only knee the one time, during the consecration. I have no idea the reason for this, but they no longer want folks to kneel after communion, or before.

Here we kneel the usual way, but when I go to the Cathedral they stand before communion, but kneel after. I just do what ever most people do so as not to stand out.

Some people in my parish kneel to receive communion, as they are very traditional and like the old fashioned ways. They like to do so and feel it is more reverent, most likely. I do think that there is something powerful in kneeling, but I like to keep with the norms and not stand out. But, I can kneel at home all I like, it is a wonderful posture for prayer. It’s too bad if it’s being phased out, it seems as if people today need more humility and less comforts. We are too arrogant and proud these days…
 
Sadly, anything done in the Los Angeles Archdiocese can probably be assumed to be more wrong than right. The Cardinal wants to make his mark and has decided to do so by instituting as many liberal changes as possible, and appeasing all sorts of “Catholics” on issues that are actually not part of our faith. He rationalizes this as being inclusive. He has openly gone against most of the bishops and said it’s OK to give communion to someone clearly in a state of mortal sin for publicly, politically and financially supporting abortion. He has also given his OK to the gay lifestyle, basically endorsing sex outside of marriage. As for the cathedral, well, that’s a matter of taste, but it does seem to indicate the guy may have an ego larger than his faith.

I don’t know the rubrics, but I don’t believe it is essential to kneel, but a tradition most churches still follow because it makes sense and is most suitable. I have seen every extreme, including a new Catholic church with NO kneelers, virtually forcing you to stand. I was told that standing is the “better form of worship because it is the most ancient.” (Does that mean it goes back to the Pagans, who knows?!)

But my feeling is, anything other than kneeling during the ENTIRE Eucharistic prayer and also the short part after the “Lamb of God” is disrespectful and basically un-Catholic (if I may use such a term).

However, it has become the norm to stand to receive communion, which makes sense because there is no longer a communion rail anyway. Many people I see bow as they approach the priest or Eucharistic Minister, and then put out their hands to receive, and do this in a very reverential manner. It is that attitude that’s important, because we cannot kneel, there are no more communion rails, but respect and adoration can still be shown.

This brings up another “abuse” I’ve noticed. Has anyone else? At the CONSECRATION, the priest is to genuflect to the body and then also to the blood. In my church, our rather frail 76-year old priest makes a great effort to do this, fully going down onto his knee with deep respect for the Sacrament before him, even though I am sure it’s uncomfortable for him. So it really irked me recently to see a spry, younger priest in another parish merely BOW (not genuflect) at the Consecration. Now, I admit I do not know about the congregation kneeling, but I am almost positive it is an actual wrong for the priest not to genuflect at consecration. Also, in my traditional parish, the congregation all bow their heads (we are already on our knees) when the priest genuflects.

If Catholics are not doing these things, it seems to indicate a lack of understanding of Transubstantiation, that the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ is before them! As the Christmas song goes: “Fall on your knees, O hear the angel voices.” Can you not hear them? Can you not see the miracle before you? May mercy and pity be upon those who do not, they have lost touch with the most miraculous and special aspect of our Catholic faith.
 
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A.Pelliccio:
I saw a man last week receive the Eucharist after kneeling , whats that signify?
It was explained to me that a sign a reverence just before receiving is indicated by either genuflecting or profoundly bowing. The priest also genuflects after the Lamb of God, but before receiving.

I think this is to replace kneeling after the Lamb of God. For those in the front row of some parishes, kneeling is barely more that a extended genuflection since they will be rising shortly to approach Our Lord.

I often attend Mass at a very orthodox monastery. None of the priests or brothers kneel after the Lamb of God. However, the priests con-celebrate during the Eucharistic prayer and the brothers all make a profound bow just prior to receiving (on the tongue of course).

This seems to be a fine way to show my reverence for Our Lord yet not stand (or kneel) out from the crowd.

We have no uniform posture after communion. Many people kneel and I have a sneaking suspicion that all who could would, if only they were so instructed.
 
IN the archdiocese of Seattle you are supposed to stand after the our father though communion untill the priest sits down, I therefore kneel anyway. Its not like the priest is going to get out of their chair and tell you to sit down (if he does I will be very supprised). Don’t loose faith though, alot of people kneel after communion regardless of this new norm, and I think that It will be changed soon.
 
The Catholic Answers Magazine “The Rock” had a real good article on this. I don’t understand all the terminology of the Catholic Church. But according to this article. The GERM “?” put down by the Pope for the United States (not individual diocese) is that kneeling is to be done from Sanctus (Holy Holy Holy) through to the Our Lord’s Prayer, I don’t remember how they expressed it about before and after receiving the Eucharist. I have not been in a parish that does not kneel at this time, however, I will kneel if they don’t, even on hard floors. This confusion is the result of hiring profession liturgist to help with logistics of the Mass. They simply forgot the Sacredness of the Eucharist in the process. the GERM also says that out of reverance of the Body and Blood of Christ you should bow before receiving the Eucharist, and never be denied the Eucharist if your preference is to kneel while receiving. It is a very good article, I belive that you can read back issue via internet.
 
Nick L.:
It was explained to me that a sign a reverence just before receiving is indicated by either genuflecting or profoundly bowing. The priest also genuflects after the Lamb of God, but before receiving.

I think this is to replace kneeling after the Lamb of God. For those in the front row of some parishes, kneeling is barely more that a extended genuflection since they will be rising shortly to approach Our Lord.

I often attend Mass at a very orthodox monastery. None of the priests or brothers kneel after the Lamb of God. However, the priests con-celebrate during the Eucharistic prayer and the brothers all make a profound bow just prior to receiving (on the tongue of course).

This seems to be a fine way to show my reverence for Our Lord yet not stand (or kneel) out from the crowd.

We have no uniform posture after communion. Many people kneel and I have a sneaking suspicion that all who could would, if only they were so instructed.
We are required to kneel after the Lamb of God. Standing is not an option.
However, the monastery might be following a different liturgy. Franciscans, Dominicans and several others can follow the Mass used by them for the last 600 years or so, that actually predates the Tridentine Mass.
 
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cmom:
We are required to kneel after the Lamb of God. Standing is not an option.
However, the monastery might be following a different liturgy. Franciscans, Dominicans and several others can follow the Mass used by them for the last 600 years or so, that actually predates the Tridentine Mass.
It is a Carmelite monastery. And I’m not sure that they are following a different Mass since this is the only place in this area where I can follow the Mass only using my Missalette. Every parish seems to have it’s own “improvements” (Protestantationalisms) on the Mass.

They have a simple yet beautiful chapel. They even have an 10 foot tall crucifix dircetly over the altar! And believe it or not, no one talks either before or after Mass inside the chapel.
 
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Agnes:
Sadly, anything done in the Los Angeles Archdiocese can probably be assumed to be more wrong than right. The Cardinal wants to make his mark and has decided to do so by instituting as many liberal changes as possible, May mercy and pity be upon those who do not, they have lost touch with the most miraculous and special aspect of our Catholic faith.
You have touched on my favorite subject after doing much research on this last year. Ellen Rossini of the National Catholic Register even wrote an article on this last year.

From what I have found there is only a handful of Archdiocese in the United States that are doing this “standing until all have received communion.” The Archdiocese that promoted this yes, was the Los Angeles Diocese. This is happeing in the Archdiocese in Seattle, Illinois, and an area of Colorado (Not Denver). Cardinal Arinze came out last year and it was stated on the Catholic News Service in July 17, 2003, "In light of Cardinal Arinze’s response that this was not the intent, the newsletter commented, "In the implementation of the ‘General Instruction of the Roman Missal,’ therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting" immediately after they have returned to their place.

I disagree with Tyler. This is not what is happening in the whole Archdiocese of Seattle. Only in those areas who will go with this “idea.” The churches down in Vancouver, Washington have basically said if we go with this idea the people will leave and go to the Portland churches. There are also parishes in other areas in Seattle who are able to come back from communion and kneel. So the churches that want to stay reverant can while others of us are being forced to change.

You can also go to the www.adoremus.com website. In March 2003 she did a lot of articles on this as well as include the

Do some research hope some of these will help people

adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html

adoremus.org/0303BishopRules.html

adoremus.org/KneelingafterCommunion.html (Great website to show what was really said from the Bishop’s conference. It pretty much states how the “majority” of Bishop’s feel about this.)

Hope this helps to know that this is a new way of minimalizing the Mass and people are falling for it.

God Bless
Gail
 
Everyone who wrote in this thread should read the GIRM (not GERM), which is the General Instructions of the Roman Missal.

Standing from the Lord’s Prayer through receiving
Communion is an option which is reseved to the bishop; if he wants you to stand, then you stand. If he wants you to kneel, then you kneel.

It is not an issue of what you feel is most holy. It is an issue of obedience to your bishop.

Strange how, when the bishop legitimately requires something the conservatives don’t like, it suddenly is “liberal”.

Kneeling to receive Communion is disobedient; however, Rome (and theGIRM) have stated that it is not grounds for refusal of Communion; the priest is to cousel the individual after Mass.
 
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otm:
Everyone who wrote in this thread should read the GIRM (not GERM), which is the General Instructions of the Roman Missal.

Strange how, when the bishop legitimately requires something the conservatives don’t like, it suddenly is “liberal”.
OTM,

Thank you for your kind thread. I have read the GIRM and yes as you have stated that GIRM 53 states “The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.” But it seems that some Bishop’s have extended it beyond just the Agnus Dei until all have received and as one of these Bishop’s have stated it is so we are in “Communio” with each other. It is so we are one with each other…making it like a “fraternal banquet.” I am remaining standing after Agnus Dei to yes be obedient to my Bishop as per GIRM 53, but when we come back from communion we kneel. Our church has been granted to kneel once again.

Why is it that one Bishop can pick and choose which churches in his Diocese will conform to this while letting other parishes remain to what the rest of the Bishops in the United States are doing?

As Archbishop Lipscomb as stated “Well, again, if that was the bishop’s intention I don’t think we would accept that as practice for the United States - until everybody goes to Communion then you either sit or kneel, that everybody remains standing until then. I just don’t think that follows the practice of most of our churches in the United States.” Well, if Archbishop Lipscomb stated this he sounds to be “conservative.” I am glad that I agree with him and with the majority of Bishop’s who haven’t gone off on their on tangent.

God Bless,
Gail
 
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otm:
Everyone who wrote in this thread should read the GIRM (not GERM), which is the General Instructions of the Roman Missal.

Standing from the Lord’s Prayer through receiving
Communion is an option which is reseved to the bishop; if he wants you to stand, then you stand. If he wants you to kneel, then you kneel.

It is not an issue of what you feel is most holy. It is an issue of obedience to your bishop.

Strange how, when the bishop legitimately requires something the conservatives don’t like, it suddenly is “liberal”.

Kneeling to receive Communion is disobedient; however, Rome (and theGIRM) have stated that it is not grounds for refusal of Communion; the priest is to cousel the individual after Mass.
I looked through all the entries here and could only find one reference to anything as being “liberal”. It is was in reference to the Cardinal of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles and his liberal agenda. Not once was it indicated by the person writing that the Archbishop was in error in his instruction for standing after the Angus Dei. In fact the person even conceded that it probably was okay to stand.

Also, when we are being led astray by the same Bishops to which we wish to be obedient, it is only natural to question every change. Our Bishop has instructed us contrary to the GIRM, the Pope, the Vatican, the USCCB and just about every guiding document at some point or another. I don’t know about the the Cardinal of L.A., but I’d say the Bishop of San Jose is probably liberal. A dedicated, loving, nice liberal.
 
As of the beginning of last Advent, our Bishop has instituted standing after the priest receives the Eucharist and until all the faithful have received and the tabernacle is closed. To the best of my knowledge, of the six or so parishes within a 20 mile radius of our parish, we are the only parish following the Bishop’s edict, and our parish is the most conservative!! I guess that is where the obedience comes in. Not many like the standing, including our pastor, but as he said and I agree, the Bishop is within his authority to stipulate standing and to kneel anyway would be defiant and disobedient.
 
When The GIRM first came out, the instruction about standing was written is a way that it sounded like everyone was to remain standing after receiving Communion until the last person had received. Subsequently, a question was sent to Rome (I forget the official term, but it was, if you will, an official inquiry) as to whether that was the rule, or if people could kneel upon returning to their pew. The answer from Rome was that the GIRM was not meant to be that rigid, and that people could kneel or sit after returning to their pew while others were receiving.

It is entirley possible that some bishops have not received that comment from Rome. I don’t know if that is promulgated from Rome directly to each bishop, or through the bishops conference, or some other means. I believe that it was Cardinal George who sent the query.

In other words, on this one, we might be a little less quick to determine whether bishops are following the rules or not. They have the choice of the posture (kneeling or remain standing after the Our Father); and if standing, were they apprised by Rome’s respons to George’s letter?
 
During my 44 years as a catholic I have watched the church increasingly immitate the prostant churches. This recent change to stand immediately after receiving communion appears to be part of a trend that has been going on slowly but surely for a long time.

I am saddened by efforts to innovate and reform our traditions. The protestant efforts to distance themselves from these traditions have only contributed to their being endlessly divided into near irrelevance as a force for positive moral change.

If the bishops want to change something, they might encourage their priests to start preaching more about abortion before we elect a “Catholic” Culture of Death president in November.
 
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