Standing from Lord's Prayer thru Communion

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OTM:

The technical term is *dubium *which gets a responsum ad dubium.

To all:

The GIRM (General Instruction to the Roman Missal) is the universal instruction on saying Mass. It is not limited to the United States. There is, however, an appendix that contains the modifications that the bishops of the United States have asked for and which Rome has granted. Among these are the norm of standing from the Lord’s Prayer until after one has received communion.

The request to remain standing until all have received communion (as found in Los Angeles) is a local adaptation that falls withing the rights of the ordinary.

Note that, in general, one is to follow the dictates of the bishop with regard to posture as Mass in order to provide a uniform action by the congregation. Individual piety is, generally, of less import than the communal whole since the community is Church in the local sense.

Those who insist on receiving kneeling, or who insist on kneeling at times when others stand may be counseled by the priest (who will not leave his chair during Mass to do so). However, it is expected that those who come to Mass do not come for a “me and Jesus” experience (that is Protestant theology) but, rather, for a “we and Jesus” experience in which we, as a community led by the priest, worship God together.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
OTM:

Those who insist on receiving kneeling, or who insist on kneeling at times when others stand may be counseled by the priest (who will not leave his chair during Mass to do so). However, it is expected that those who come to Mass do not come for a “me and Jesus” experience (that is Protestant theology) but, rather, for a “we and Jesus” experience in which we, as a community led by the priest, worship God together.

Deacon Ed
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As I indicated kneeling is the norm in the Archdiocese it is just this one church that stands–I follow the norm and will continue to do so–Doesn’t the Archdiocese enforce liturgical uniformity?
 
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cmom:
We are required to kneel after the Lamb of God. Standing is not an option.
However, the monastery might be following a different liturgy. Franciscans, Dominicans and several others can follow the Mass used by them for the last 600 years or so, that actually predates the Tridentine Mass.
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The Tridentine Mass dates, I believe, from the Fourth Century. It was in use from that time, but was codified by Pope St. Pius V in 1571 or thereabouts in response to the Protestant Rebellion (I refuse to call it “Reformation”).
 
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Charlemagne:
The Tridentine Mass dates, I believe, from the Fourth Century. It was in use from that time, but was codified by Pope St. Pius V in 1571 or thereabouts in response to the Protestant Rebellion (I refuse to call it “Reformation”).
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To be precise, the canon of the Mass dates from the 5th century (although major elements were already present in the 3rd century). The Tridentine Mass itself is a reformation of the Mass as found in Rome in the 16th century, but there are some differences between it and the Masses that were present prior to the 16th century. Jungmann has done a marvelous job of documenting most of these differences.

Deacon Ed
 
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swampfox:
As I indicated kneeling is the norm in the Archdiocese it is just this one church that stands–I follow the norm and will continue to do so–Doesn’t the Archdiocese enforce liturgical uniformity?
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Since I am not in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles I am reluctant to speak for what is or is not “enforced” there. That being said, I suspect that there is little or no “enforcement” in any diocese anywhere, especially in the United States.

Deacon Ed
 
Here is a letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, dated February 26, 2003. My emphasis is added:

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received your letter dated December 1, 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congregation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

With every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,
[signed]
Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary"

Pax Christi. <><
 
Therefore, anyone who accuses those who kneel of disobedience is, himself, disobeying Rome.

Pax Christi. <><
 
This letter from the Congregation is in reference to the posture assumed for the reception of Holy Communion.

The issue in this thread is the option for bishops to require standing from the Our Father through the reception of Holy Communion. One cannot assume that the responsum you quoted applies to this posture except at the moment of Holy Communion.

Also, although kneeling is an acceptable posture for the reception of Holy Communion and is not to be viewed as disobedient, it is not the norm in the United States.
 
Agreed. I was just responding to this quote from June 1st, which had gone uncorrected:
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otm:
Kneeling to receive Communion is disobedient; however, Rome (and theGIRM) have stated that it is not grounds for refusal of Communion; the priest is to cousel the individual after Mass.
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While the Congregation for Sacred Worship and Discipline in the Sacraments has said
Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion
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Back to your regularly scheduled discussion…
 
Truth Seeker 59:
During my 44 years as a catholic I have watched the church increasingly immitate the prostant churches. This recent change to stand immediately after receiving communion appears to be part of a trend that has been going on slowly but surely for a long time.
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I hear your complaint and understand what you are trying to say, but there is no reason to believe that standing for communion is a protestant concept exclusively. I am not even sure how many protestants would.

But Eastern Catholics do not kneel for communion, unless they have been latinized to a great degree. There was a church council that specifically forbade kneeling on Sundays except during Lent and some other Penitential days.

The reason? Sunday is resurrection day, Friday is Crucifixion day. Sunday is a day of joy in the triumph of the Resurrection, kneeling was considered a penitential gesture in the early church in the East.

So if this concept is a borrowing, I would say it is more than likely a borrowing from the East, not the West (protestants). One of the great strengths of the Western Catholic church is it’s ability to be flexible. Among other great borrowings from the East you can include the Stations of the Cross, the sign of the cross (which you do backwards) and the Rosary.

In Christ Jesus Always
Michael, that sinner
 
Does anyone actually know the reason WHY, after at least decades that I know of, some Catholic churches in the U.S. have changed from kneeling to standing, AFTER receiving communion and before the last person has received?

Since I too consider obedience to the bishop more important than making a distraction of myself or holding on to tradition, at least in a matter such as this, I will do what I see most people doing.

It would just be easier to accept what feels like a less reverant change if the reason for the change was not “BECAUSE I’M THE BISHOP THAT’S WHY!”
 
Truth Seeker 59:
Does anyone actually know the reason WHY, after at least decades that I know of, some Catholic churches in the U.S. have changed from kneeling to standing, AFTER receiving communion and before the last person has received?

Since I too consider obedience to the bishop more important than making a distraction of myself or holding on to tradition, at least in a matter such as this, I will do what I see most people doing.

It would just be easier to accept what feels like a less reverant change if the reason for the change was not “BECAUSE I’M THE BISHOP THAT’S WHY!”
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The reasoning behind this posture which is permitted is that we approach Communion as a community not as individuals. It is important therefore that there be a uniformity of posture among those approaching the altar for Communion. The idea that we all remain standing as opposed to returning to the pew and kneeling is to keep this uniformity. Of course, similar to the issue of kneeling or standing for the actual reception of Holy Communion, no one is to be “forced” to remain standing in the pew after receiving Communion. As far as I can tell, this posture should have been adopted on a diocesan level. So, either every parish in your area should be doing this or none of them should.

I agree that pastors and bishops should do a better job of communicating WHY something is being changed. When we instituted the changes to the GIRM our pastor distributed a 4 part series in our bulletin explaining what each change was and why it was being done. It was extremely helpful.
 
Does anyone actually know the reason WHY, after at least decades that I know of, some Catholic churches in the U.S. have changed from kneeling to standing, AFTER receiving communion and before the last person has received?

The Liturgical Revolution is a perpetual motion machine.
 
Panis Angelicus: please, lets not play the game of selective quoting; other documents from Rome say that while a person is not to be denied Communion for kneeling, they are to be pastorally counseled after Mass. If that is not because of stubborness and disobedience, then I fail to understand why they are to be counseled.

And further, the GIRM comments that one is not to act in a manner that draws attention to oneself.

As to the question of whether or not the Bishops are going to enforce the rubrics, I suspect that Cardinal George of Chicago spoke for many when he said how tired he was of all the nit picking being done about rubrics by the conservatives and the liberals. And last I checked, not too many people consider George a liberal; at least not those in Chicago…
He, and many good bishops understand that there is a range of egregiousness. They are also old enough to understand legalism, and not want to return to those days.

Hving said that, and having seen the response that Rome gave to standing until all are back from Communion (Rome did not intend that), it would be nice if everyone was on the same page. I attended Mass in a small town in California this last Saturday; the church was full, with a guesstimate of around 600-700 people or more. And as people returned from Communion, about 25-30% stood and almost all of the rest knelt. A bit distracting…
 
Catholicguy said:
Does anyone actually know the reason WHY, after at least decades that I know of, some Catholic churches in the U.S. have changed from kneeling to standing, AFTER receiving communion and before the last person has received?

The Liturgical Revolution is a perpetual motion machine.
Click to expand...

I know its happening in the Erie diocese, and its simply because they have misinterpreted the GIRM. Cardinal George or Cardinal Dulles checked with Rome on this one, and we can kneel or sit as our previous custom has dictated. We do not have to stand.
 
I am from a large parish in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. The Arcdiocese has instructed all parishes to stand from the Our Father, through Communion…kneeling only for the Consecration. Some parishes have instituted this directive, and others have not. Some parishes kneel for the Lord I Am Not Worthy, and some do not. Very confusing.

I continue to kneel in the way prescribed by GIRM…
The problem for me is that we have been instructed to do this standing in the name of “unity”…Our “unity” is in the Eucharist, not is standing together before, during and after Holy Communion…
**As aside…I grew up in the Methodist Church, where it was customary to receivve Communion on one’s knnes at the altar rail. I greatly miss that…The same was true in the Lutheran Church, which I belonged to just before converting to Catholicism. **
Having said that, I do have to say that I am always touched by the lines of people walking up to receive Holy Communion…The constant footsteps, the constand murmur of “Amen” always affects me.
BTW…Sometimes I expect the Liturgy Police to come and try to make me stand when I want to kneel…Like to see them try. I am only 4ft. 10 1/2 inches, but I can take care of myself!
 
I think that our bishop, Bernard Schmitt, interpreted the GIRM correctly. He says that it gives the communicant the option of standing, sitting, or kneeling after receiving. He has given us the freedom to choose. Most people kneel, a few sit, I haven’t seen anyone stand.
 
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