M
Mickey
Guest
If someone is a superb debater and convinces someone else that they are speaking the fulness of truth—does that mean they are speaking the fulness of truth?
- Status
C
Churchmouse
Guest
Well, it isn’t a matter of convincing per se, considering that it is up to the individual to contrast what is being said. There are many “convincing” debators, but I believe we should all be “Bereans” regarding what they say. If one wants truth, one can’t assume, but if truth is found then honesty is key.
Peace,
CM
M
Mickey
Guest
And how will you discern which interpretation is the truthful one?
C
Churchmouse
Guest
That’s a loftier question. I believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates. Only He can guide one to truth. As to whether or not we can receive it is another question entirely.
CM
D
drtimstephens
Guest
On his webcast yesterday James White demonstrated that 2 of the citations provided by Tim Staples were well out of context.
Tim Staples had to know that James White would look up his citations… It’s just detracts from your argument when you have to misquote sources to make a stronger case.
youtube.com/watch?v=KIX5FUg8Qes
Tim Staples had to know that James White would look up his citations… It’s just detracts from your argument when you have to misquote sources to make a stronger case.
youtube.com/watch?v=KIX5FUg8Qes
M
Mickey
Guest
But there are so many interpretations of Scripture. Are you saying that the most people do not receive this illumination?
C
Churchmouse
Guest
I don’t know what this has to do with interpretation of Scripture? Again, the Holy Spirits illumines those who are sincerely, honestly seeking truth, Scripture being the norm by which one weighs truth. He doesn’t lead those who indulge preconceptions.
CM
P
PRmerger
Guest
So are you saying the Holy Spirit guides all these Christian to the truth?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, ‘once saved always saved’, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?
C
Churchmouse
Guest
It seems that what is being lost here is the ability of the Holy Spirit to lead one to truth, of which one would be hardpressed to deny (John 14:26; John 16.13; 1 John 2:20-27, etc.). Red herring arguments notwithstanding, humanity errs, but this doesn’t impede the guidance of the Holy Spirit on the life of the sincere seeker (Matthew 7:7).So are you saying the Holy Spirit guides all these Christian to the truth?
Originally posted here.
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, ‘once saved always saved’, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
- How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?
CM
P
PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.
So which Christian in the above examples are in error? (Each one believes he’s been guided by the HS; each one has read the same Scripture verses and come to different–sometimes* contrary* positions.) shrug:
M
Mickey
Guest
Good question.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
How can the HS guide you to believe your church is the one true church at the same time guide the EO to believ the same thing…What pray tell is the difference?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Nothing, doctrinally, right?
C
catholic1seeks
Guest
No, I think uncharitable means uncharitable. You can actually see this by just listening to any debate; I heard someone say that White used to (maybe still does) refuse to pray with the Catholic debater or even refuse to shake hands…
I personally do not respect White as a debater.
I’m not sure what faith tradition you come from…but I disagree with you when you say all those catholic apologists got “trumped.” Madrid won the sola scriptura debate all the way!
You should also see the papacy debate on youtube (Sungenis vs. White & partner).
C
Churchmouse
Guest
This is just the same question you asked earlier. Who am I to decide? Scripture is still the norm for truth and still, the Holy Spirit continues to illumine the sincere seeker. What part aren’t you getting?
CM
C
Churchmouse
Guest
Y’all have got to stop listening to hearsay. Just because one “hears” things doesn’t mean that it’s true. Personally, I admire Apologist78 and his honesty. It’s refreshing.
CM
P
PRmerger
Guest
I’m not getting whose doctrine is correct. And how do you know?
It seems like a pretty straight-forward question.
C
Churchmouse
Guest
Let’s put it this way: How would YOU know if your tradition is correct in it’s definition of truth? Undoubtedly you would appeal to the antiquity of the Church and what has been defined as its ability to infallibly determine doctrine via Scripture and tradition. Yet, I wouldn’t buy it, considering I don’t see any reason to believe that your church’s distinctives are valid. You would say that same thing about mine. Therefore, there is a dilemma. How do we (you and I) know who is correct in our determinations? Answer: WE can’t! We must rely on God’s inerrant ability to guide His people to His truth. Hence, the Holy Spirit is the only One who can illumine. I believe that Scripture is the authoritative norm for weighing doctrine and right belief (even though human foibles and agendas may lead to differences) and you, on the other hand would believe that Scripture and tradition under the infallible interpretive authority of the church is your norm. Yet, we can’t both be right. Does this impede the Spirit’s ability to do as He said He would do?I’m not getting whose doctrine is correct. And how do you know?
It seems like a pretty straight-forward question.
I’m sure you can see what I mean
.CM
P
Philthy
Guest
I dont think you quite understand the problem. You can claim that the holy Spirit has the ability to lead one to the truth, and we would all agree. But the question remains how do we recognize when the Holy Spirit has actually done that. Your original comments regarding the debate seemed to indicate that some level of truth had been reached, but the question I believe that was being asked was, “How did you know that one side (Staples or White) had demonstrated truth?” You never answered that, you just kinda went in circles about how the holy spirit has the ability to reveal the truth without provide a single example of it from the debate or anything else.
Blessings!
S
SemperReformada
Guest
- Status