Star Trek Beyond - Farewell to a Franchise

[ToeInTheWater]

Personally, I don’t think simply showing characters who are in same-sex relationships is cause to boycott a show, but I think there’s a big difference between the examples cited of SS relationships in Sci-Fi, and, say “Will and Grace”. Indeed I’ve even read commentary from gay people that while that show did make gays more visible in popular media, they also think the show promoted many stereotypes about gay people that weren’t always true. Same for the GOT show version of Loras Tyrell, almost every plot he’s been involved with has revolved around his sexuality, this is not the case in the books.

That’s complicated in the case of Trill Jadzia Dax, and Lenara Khan, because Lenara Khan had been involved with the male host that had the symbiont that then had been implanted into Jadzia Dax… And trills take on the personality aspects etc. of hosts the symbiont has been implanted in, so wasn’t it that Lenara Khan was after, that Jadzia Dax had aspects of the man that Lenara Khan was involved with, and that’s what Lenara Khan was after really… not Jadzia Dax…? It’s complicated!

There are definite examples of same-sex relationships in sci-fi, but I think it is pretty rare.

I think the Trills are very complicated because of the whole symbiont issue and I don’t think Trill relationships are anything close to “same-sex relationships” among humans. That being said, I’m sure TNG was trying to “make history with a lesbian kiss” while at the same time maintaining plausible deniability. Very similar M.O. to the “inter-racial kiss” between Kirk and Uhura in the OT. Yes it was “daring” but it only happened because they were both being mind-controlled by aliens at the time. So it wasn’t a “real” inter-racial kiss.

 

[Padres1969]

That’s complicated in the case of Trill Jadzia Dax, and Lenara Khan, because Lenara Khan had been involved with the male host that had the symbiont that then had been implanted into Jadzia Dax… And trills take on the personality aspects etc. of hosts the symbiont has been implanted in, so wasn’t it that Lenara Khan was after, that Jadzia Dax had aspects of the man that Lenara Khan was involved with, and that’s what Lenara Khan was after really… not Jadzia Dax…? It’s complicated!

There are definite examples of same-sex relationships in sci-fi, but I think it is pretty rare.

Yeah the Dax one was comparatively early and was their way of skirting the issue in the way Star Trek often does with bleeding edge issues (such as TOS did with the first interracial kiss with them under mind control).

Torias Dax (a male host to Dax) had been married to the female host of the Khan symbiote about 120 years before the series. Torias died in a tragic shuttle crash. Several hosts later for both symbiotes and they meet, but now Dax is in a woman as is Khan. They rekindle their 120 year old romance, which was considered taboo to do by their society, and because of that they break it off ultimately. But before they did we got Star Trek’s first romantic SS kiss.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Torias Dax (a male host to Dax) had been married to the female host of the Khan symbiote about 120 years before the series. Torias died in a tragic shuttle crash. Several hosts later for both symbiotes and they meet, but now Dax is in a woman as is Khan. They rekindle their 120 year old romance, which was considered taboo to do by their society, and because of that they break it off ultimately. But before they did we got Star Trek’s first romantic SS kiss.

On the other hand, the episode did make clear that the main taboo was NOT their being of the same sex, but that the romance was based on their “past lives” and that is considered taboo. And yes, I know the lives of past hosts aren’t quite the same as “past lives”, but IMHO the Trills have always struck me as the SF equivalent of reincarnation.

I also recall an episode in which a non-Trill character, actually puts Jadzia on trial for a “crime” he alleged was committed by Curzon Dax. Though that episode does involve a former love of Curzon’s, there was no hint of any rekindled romance between her and Jadzia. Indeed, Jadzia really distanced herself from Curzon in that episode, at one point even going as far as to say she didn’t know why Curzon would behave dishonorably. Though I’m not sure if she was being totally honest there, considering the situation, with her trying to defend herself against murder charges.

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

On the other hand, the episode did make clear that the main taboo was NOT their being of the same sex, but that the romance was based on their “past lives” and that is considered taboo. And yes, I know the lives of past hosts aren’t quite the same as “past lives”, but IMHO the Trills have always struck me as the SF equivalent of reincarnation.

I also recall an episode in which a non-Trill character, actually puts Jadzia on trial for a “crime” he alleged was committed by Curzon Dax. Though that episode does involve a former love of Curzon’s, there was no hint of any rekindled romance between her and Jadzia. Indeed, Jadzia really distanced herself from Curzon in that episode, at one point even going as far as to say she didn’t know why Curzon would behave dishonorably. Though I’m not sure if she was being totally honest there, considering the situation, with her trying to defend herself against murder charges.

The prosecutor in that case was the son of the man who wound up dead supposedly due to Curzon’s actions. It turned out that Curzon was not guilty due to having been sleeping with the man’s wife at the time–the man wound up dead due to his own treasonous actions. Jadzia didn’t want to out the man’s wife nor have to reveal the man as a traitor to his people (and it was likely his son wouldn’t have believed Jadzia–it was his mother’s testimony that clinched it.)

 

[Padres1969]

The prosecutor in that case was the son of the man who wound up dead supposedly due to Curzon’s actions. It turned out that Curzon was not guilty due to having been sleeping with the man’s wife at the time–the man wound up dead due to his own treasonous actions. Jadzia didn’t want to out the man’s wife nor have to reveal the man as a traitor to his people (and it was likely his son wouldn’t have believed Jadzia–it was his mother’s testimony that clinched it.)

You know what Scifi property has had a terrible track record with marriage? Star Wars. There haven’t been any SS relationships to speak of, at least in the current canon yet. But the only marriages I can think of are Anakin and Padme, where he ends up indirectly murdering her in a pique of dark side rage. And spoiler for The Force Awakens, where Han and Leia are married but estranged with a son who has turned into a homicidal monster himself.

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

You know what Scifi property has had a terrible track record with marriage? Star Wars. There haven’t been any SS relationships to speak of, at least in the current canon yet. But the only marriages I can think of are Anakin and Padme, where he ends up indirectly murdering her in a pique of dark side rage. And spoiler for The Force Awakens, where Han and Leia are married but estranged with a son who has turned into a homicidal monster himself.

On the other hand, there’s Owen and Beru Lars, who seemed pretty good together and raised Luke fairly well (okay, a bit whiny, but he wasn’t evil under them, at least.) Owen was a bit overbearing when it came to Luke, but given the hard life of a moisture farmer, plus raising Darth Vader’s kid (and who knew whether or not his stepbrother would show up someday) probably took its toll on him.

There was also Bail and Breha Organa, Leia’s adoptive parents, who seemed great together (what little we saw) and did a great job raising Leia (and probably also had quiet heart attacks over how often she was crossing paths with her biological father.)

 

[Padres1969]

On the other hand, there’s Owen and Beru Lars, who seemed pretty good together and raised Luke fairly well (okay, a bit whiny, but he wasn’t evil under them, at least.) Owen was a bit overbearing when it came to Luke, but given the hard life of a moisture farmer, plus raising Darth Vader’s kid (and who knew whether or not his stepbrother would show up someday) probably took its toll on him.

There was also Bail and Breha Organa, Leia’s adoptive parents, who seemed great together (what little we saw) and did a great job raising Leia (and probably also had quiet heart attacks over how often she was crossing paths with her biological father.)

Touche! I’d completely forgotten the Luke’s crispy foster parents. To be fair, if you take the Troops rendition of it the Lars family was anything but happy…

youtube.com/watch?v=LvswNDAAZCU

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The prosecutor in that case was the son of the man who wound up dead supposedly due to Curzon’s actions. It turned out that Curzon was not guilty due to having been sleeping with the man’s wife at the time–the man wound up dead due to his own treasonous actions. Jadzia didn’t want to out the man’s wife nor have to reveal the man as a traitor to his people (and it was likely his son wouldn’t have believed Jadzia–it was his mother’s testimony that clinched it.)

Well I was trying to avoid spoilers, but yes, those do turn out to be the real reasons Jadzia kept silent for most of the episode. However, even at the end it did seem she saw herself and Curzon as two different people and I didn’t see any sign of any lingering attraction to his former lover. Though since Curzon apparently was a big playboy, this particular affair may not have meant much to him, compared to Torias’s feelings for his then-wife.

As for Star Wars, yes, that franchise really doesn’t seem to handle marriage well, but that’s so for romantic relationships in general. Luke and Leia’s adoptive parents did seem to have solid marriages but they really don’t have enough screentime to say for sure.

Han/Leia came the closest to a believable relationship, but of course the sequel movie blew up that one as well.

 

[gracepoole]

Bah, TOS is overrated and only held in high esteem because it was the original. DS9 is the true standard bearer.

Um…sure…

 

[Potter]

Well, have you seen that skant? The teeming mass of humanity compelled Roddenberry to alter it. No one wants to see guy-legs in a microskirt.

 

[anon67074017]

At least Spock and Kirk are not gay.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve been liking the reboot movies so far but I wish they hadn’t done this.
It’s a sad commentary of our times. most TV shows these days have a gay character.

I’m finding it really annoying - I watch one show that is supposed to be set in the early 1900s, and all of a sudden one of the main characters turns out to be a lesbian (after having several relationships with various men). Obviously, word came down from the network that they had to have a homosexual character, so bam, suddenly she’s kissing a woman.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Takei himself is not overjoyed about the storyline, and he tried to convince the screenwriter to make a new character gay instead making Sulu gay.

But, he says, Gene Roddenberry “was a strong supporter of LGBT equality,”

hollywoodreporter.com/news/george-takei-reacts-gay-sulu-909154

In that one neighborhood of 77,000 residents and under four square miles?
There are stats on this?

That’s a bit much, to claim that 100% percent fornicate. Puh-lease.

I know four people personally off the top of my head who live in Hollywood who do* not * “fornicate”. So your stat is wrong.

.

Don’t some who support same-sex relationships question why didn’t Gene Rodenberry didn’t put on a same-sex couple, and if the show got censured or cancelled, so be it? Star Trek TNG, Voyager, DS9 and Enterprise, it’s rare to find any same-sex romantic interaction. Enterprise was on air in the early 2000s. There were other same-sex relationships on other television shows.

 

[meltzerboy]

Don’t some who support same-sex relationships question why didn’t Gene Rodenberry didn’t put on a same-sex couple, and if the show got censured or cancelled, so be it? Star Trek TNG, Voyager, DS9 and Enterprise, it’s rare to find any same-sex romantic interaction. Enterprise was on air in the early 2000s. There were other same-sex relationships on other television shows.

In 1966, the date of the inception of the original series, it would have been too much for both management and audiences to include a same-sex couple. The show was already far ahead of its time in featuring a multi-ethnic crew. Gene Rodenberry might have thought why endanger the lessons that could be learned from the series by risking cancellation if he pushed the envelope to that extent.

 

[_Abyssinia]

In 1966, the date of the inception of the original series, it would have been too much for both management and audiences to include a same-sex couple. The show was already far ahead of its time in featuring a multi-ethnic crew. Gene Rodenberry might have thought why endanger the lessons that could be learned from the series by risking cancellation if he pushed the envelope to that extent.

Yet despite controversy, Star Trek TOS featured the interracial kiss. Obviously one man and one woman with different skin colours have the complementarity that same-sex couples lack, but there was obviously controversy in that time regarding an interracial kiss… and yet Star Trek went there. It’s just curious.

 

[jmcrae]

Yet despite controversy, Star Trek TOS featured the interracial kiss. Obviously one man and one woman with different skin colours have the complementarity that same-sex couples lack, but there was obviously controversy in that time regarding an interracial kiss… and yet Star Trek went there. It’s just curious.

I still find it baffling that there’s any analogy between interracial romance and same-sex romance. They seem worlds apart, to me. (In the dark, you can’t see skin colour. But I think you’d notice a huge difference even in the dark, if the person was of the same sex.)

 

[meltzerboy]

I still find it baffling that there’s any analogy between interracial romance and same-sex romance. They seem worlds apart, to me. (In the dark, you can’t see skin colour. But I think you’d notice a huge difference even in the dark, if the person was of the same sex.)

Well, not necessarily a huge difference.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Yet despite controversy, Star Trek TOS featured the interracial kiss. Obviously one man and one woman with different skin colours have the complementarity that same-sex couples lack, but there was obviously controversy in that time regarding an interracial kiss… and yet Star Trek went there. It’s just curious.

But the inter-racial kiss only took place in the context of BOTH Kirk and Uhura essentially being mind-raped by aliens. (Not to mention, they didn’t even show the actual kiss). It certainly did NOT take place in the context of a consensual, loving relationship. Indeed, it would be easy to put a racist spin on the episode, that the only way to get decent people to kiss inter-racially, even in near-utopian future, is to FORCE them to do it via mind control.

(Not that white producers are the only ones showing inter-racial romance in a problematic way. One could argue that Spike Lee’s film “Jungle Fever” merely shows inter-racial lust, not an actual inter-racial relationship. And that’s really not that progressive, either.)

Anyway, I find the “lesbian kiss” in TNG between Jadzia Dax and Lenara Khan to also be an example of a scene that, although it was certainly controversial for that era (1990s), was also deliberately presented in a context that made it easy to put a not-so-progressive spin on it. Both characters were, first of all, technically not even human, but aliens. Aliens who are essentially re-incarnations of dead aliens who were in a heterosexual marriage.

So yes, the ST franchise HAS “gone there” before, they had a “inter-racial kiss” that could easily be spun in a racist way as not relevant to Real Life because it happened under mind control, and a “lesbian kiss” that could easily be spun as not relevant to Real Life, because it happened between aliens with vastly different anatomy/physiology from humans.

Some may call this cowardly, or just Rodenberry’s genius in getting a foot in the door to pave the way for future inter-racial and same-sex romance storylines. After all, we eventually wind up, by Voyager, with a long lasting inter-racial AND inter-species relationship ending in marriage and children. And yes, inter-species and inter-racial relationships had been shown before but either (1) between characters played by white actors OR (2) characters played by White and Asian actors (the O’Briens) or (3) between characters played by Black and White actors, BUT shown as not actually working out. Worf (Mike Dorn) is a great example of the latter, and it happened to him TWICE!

ETA: So, I guess in that way “AU Gay Sulu” is just the next step toward an eventual increased visibility of homosexual characters in the ST franchise. A big step forward, indeed, considering there’s a queer theory that Tasha is meant to be a “coded lesbian”. and that the Data/Tasha hookup in TNG showed how homophobic 1980s culture was, that it was considered less shocking for a woman to have sex with a robot, than to have sex with another woman.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Well, not necessarily a huge difference.

How can there not be that difference? There is a massive difference being two people of opposite genders having different skin colours and being the same gender.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I still find it baffling that there’s any analogy between interracial romance and same-sex romance. They seem worlds apart, to me. (In the dark, you can’t see skin colour. But I think you’d notice a huge difference even in the dark, if the person was of the same sex.)

I’m just discussing the issue because of the point of controversy in the time TOS aired in regards to an interracial kiss.

I agree, they are “worlds apart”.