Starting to agree with Martin Luther

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There is only one road…Jesus Christ
In the real world, there is more than just one way, more than just one road to take. I didn’t make up this quote from the CCC. The teachers of our Church did, so you’re really opposing them, not me 🤷
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
That pretty much sums it up for those people who are faithful and loyal to their religon, and therefore, faithful to God, but who are not Catholic.
 
In the real world, there is more than just one way, more than just one road to take. I didn’t make up this quote from the CCC. The teachers of our Church did, so you’re really opposing them, not me 🤷

That pretty much sums it up for those people who are faithful and loyal to their religon, and therefore, faithful to God, but who are not Catholic.
Even those who are invincibly ignorant are still saved by Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it. Those who are not are bound to the Catholic Church. Even if they have only been to the Gospel a single time, they would no longer be invincibly ignorant. Any who consciously refuses the Church is like wise not invincibly ignorant. By consciously refusing the Church, they assume responsibility, that is at the point of refusal it becomes through their own fault.
 
Even those who are invincibly ignorant are still saved by Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it. Those who are not are bound to the Catholic Church. Even if they have only been to the Gospel a single time, they would no longer be invincibly ignorant. Any who consciously refuses the Church is like wise not invincibly ignorant. By consciously refusing the Church, they assume responsibility, that is at the point of refusal it becomes through their own fault.
It’s beyond unreasonable to expect someone to cast aside their religion, one that they’ve been faithfully following – just because they heard one Gospel one time. Have you taken the time to talk to your family priest about this? It’s not that theyr’e consciously refusing the Church, rather they are consciously following their convictions and being faithful to the religion to which they are loyal. That doesn’t mean they don’t seek God, as the CCC states, that just means they seek Him in a different way. They are still seeking God, and therefore they can still be saved. Just as the CCC says.
 
It’s beyond unreasonable to expect someone to cast aside their religion, one that they’ve been faithfully following – just because they heard one Gospel one time. Have you taken the time to talk to your family priest about this? It’s not that theyr’e consciously refusing the Church, rather they are consciously following their convictions and being faithful to the religion to which they are loyal. That doesn’t mean they don’t seek God, as the CCC states, that just means they seek Him in a different way. They are still seeking God, and therefore they can still be saved. Just as the CCC says.
I can’t see how you conclude this from the Catechism. I believe your interpreting it out of context. Firts off you have read the “entire” context of the CCC.

Nonetheless to the OP, I can’t in all honestly state Luther didn’t have some ideas which ultimately helped the CC though I believe he shouls have remained in the church to accomplish this. And we could go as far as to say the Reformation was a Blessing in the sense it helped spread the Gospel. But much futher than that in light of the 500 years since its seperation and establishment, what has it done for Christianity or mankind.

My friend the CC doesn’t teach many paths to God. I teachs “one”. The CCC clearly states outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

CCC-846

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it

CCC-847

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

This is based on the fact that somewhere in the world today there may be a soul who is not aware of the Catholic Church on earth. That is the only exception.

God Bless, Gary
 
It’s beyond unreasonable to expect someone to cast aside their religion, one that they’ve been faithfully following – just because they heard one Gospel one time. Have you taken the time to talk to your family priest about this? It’s not that theyr’e consciously refusing the Church, rather they are consciously following their convictions and being faithful to the religion to which they are loyal. That doesn’t mean they don’t seek God, as the CCC states, that just means they seek Him in a different way. They are still seeking God, and therefore they can still be saved. Just as the CCC says.
The CCC does not say that.
 
I can’t see how you conclude this from the Catechism. I believe your interpreting it out of context. Firts off you have read the “entire” context of the CCC.
Yes, I did, and went over it with my family priest. Have you?
My friend the CC doesn’t teach many paths to God. I teachs “one”. The CCC clearly states outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

CCC-846

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it

CCC-847

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

This is based on the fact that somewhere in the world today there may be a soul who is not aware of the Catholic Church on earth. That is the only exception.

God Bless, Gary
If it were based on ‘the fact that somewhere in the world today there may be a soul who is not aware of the Catholic Church on earth’ and if ‘That is the only exception’, then the Church wouldn’t have had it written into the CCC. You do realize that the Pope had everything compiled into the CCC taking modern and old world references. Not ‘knowing’ the Gospel doesn’t mean not knowing OF it, it means KNOWING it. In other words, understanding it, not just someone claiming its existence and therefore you know it exists. Faith is much more than a mere mentioning. Faith is a life-long journey.

Also note the 'do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart". I think it’s pretty much a given that a Christian who is not Catholic knows the Gospel of Christ and that such a person seeks God with a sincere heart. Notice the CCC says “know the Gospel of Christ OR his Church”. He didn’t write “AND His Church”. This was an acknowledgement by the Pope that there are many different Christian religions and though the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth, the others lead people to Christ as well.
 
Rence ,
The Catholic “Red Book” , a.k. a. The Pontifical Yearbook came out this February , the first three copies are presented to the Pope , and the rest of the publication run ( intended for the public ) has a red cover ( there is no other differnce between the two editions ) . As of 2/19/11 , the edition for the public had not yot been released .
The Yearbook contains information on all Church jurisdictions and organizations , religous and cultural institutes and structures worldwide . The main focus is on statistics from 2008-2009 . In 2,959 Church jurisdictions in the world ,membership increased by 15,000,000 .The total number of living , baptized Catholics in the world reached 1,181,000,000 ( with 68,5000,000 in the U.S. ) .So the metric for membership is Baptism .
The Yearbook showed that the number of bishops & priests grew in direct proportion to the number of Catholics worldwide . For the 1.3% ( 15,000,000 ) more Catholics in the world, there were 1.3% more bishops and priests . At a 1.3% annual growth rate , the Catholic Church would double in size in 55.4 years .
In the 2008-2009 period , the data also show a net increase of priests on every continent , except Europe .
This data was compiled by the Central Statistics Office of the Church .
In 2006 , the Red Book cost $90.60 USD
I wouldn’t judge the relative “health” of the Church by my own individual parish , town or diocese .None of those would portray an adequate random sample of a Church with over 1 billion members . I 'm sure you understand that the U.S.'s deep south is not a heavily Catholic area , which means it’s ripe for conversion .
Re: Catholics you have met , we all don’t display the same level of fervor uniformly throughout our lives , commitment can wax and wane and even have a continual upward trajectory . I regret there are not more Catholics in your immediate area , but always remember that you are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and there are no limits to your opportunities for prayer , devotion and meditation . And you always have the internet .
Much of the info I came across on the Red Book I obtained at the Catholic News Agency’s website .
 
As a former Lutheran I can assure you that Luther did not view Christianity as something that concerns only the individual Christian and God. He firmly upheld the place of the Church as the possessor of sacramental grace through the Office of the Keys, which exercises its responsibility by preparing Christians through baptism and confirmation for reception of the Eucharist.
Wasn’t there also a degree of nationalism in the successors to Luther? ie, where there is a divide amongst Catholic and Lutheran, the people should adopt the faith of the local prince?

Or was that Wycliffe?
 
I think one of the main things Luther stood for was that we all have an indivdual relationship with God. We may repent and ask forgiveness in our prayers. We don’t need to ask for an indulgence form the church. In my rant, I was using his name to put a name on my own frustrations with the church being slow to educate interested people. In my frustrated state, I did not see why someone intrested in becoming a Catholic in January should be waiting until September to START RCIA classes. I think there should be a more fluid system in place for people to gain knowledge on a 1 on 1 basis or small group or one of a thousand solutions instead of “Great, come back in 9 months and we’ll get ya going” I took the attitude of maybe Luther was on to something. Maybe the Church has gotten too big. So big that the individuals are nothing more than I don’t know, numbers on a Parish roster. Where’s the passion? Where’s the bread of life? If someone is hearing God call them specifically to the Catholic Church, why not explore that with a person right away? At the end of the day it just seems like bad business. I think the Catholic Church is a beautiful thing I want to be a part of it. I know I need patience. It’s just sometimes I wish there was more programming for new comers. I remember that was the best part of joining the Church I’m coming from. The people you meet that want you to feel like a part of the church family and they teel you “Don’t forget Bible study on Wednesday”. Sometimes I feel like a beggar, asking for some scraps of spiritual food from the people who are in charge of “new people” Unanswered emails, unavailable for appointments. I’m not trying to bother anyone, I just want what the Catholic Church has to offer and I don’t see why new people have to be treated like we’re not to be told the big secret until we’re ready. Well guess what! He died for my sins too! You can’t keep Jesus all to yourself! That’s what I mean by I deserve mine too. I sincerly believe in the time of Jesus, if someone wanted to know Jesus he would have said bring him/her to me period. I think RCIA is man-made Jesus never required it EVER. He said baptize make deciples. Jesus said “follow me” they put down their nets ans followed period.

My crack about the church dying was in poor taste and I apologize. I was told there is a shortage of priests and churches are closing all over but a couple Priests here in the Twin Cities. Because of past things that happend (like to my mom) the church is suffering a bit I was told there going through a kind of reconciling.
 
Rence, this is precisely what the Apostles did.

Read Acts of the Apostles.

Saint Paul enters Athens and openly proclaims the Gospel in the Areopagus.

Some people decide to hear more from him, and thus become potential converts and catechumens.

Others ridicule him and leave.

Salvation outside of the Militant Church exists in rare cases.

For example, a Muslim in rural Saudi Arabia or Pakistan who has never heard the Gospel, yet practices and adheres to Catholic teachings, may be in a state of grace. Nonetheless, even with this provision, it is always up to God’s mercy, and there is no nominal path to salvation for this individual.
 
rturner76,
I appreciate your enthusiasm and I understand your frustration . If you are in an area where ther are not many Catholics I understand how there are not as many opportunities for RCIA as there is in suburban Philadelphia , for example .
Are there any of the following near you ( in addition to a local parish ) : a Catholic elementary or high school , Catholic University , a seminary or convent or Catholic nursing home or hospital ? You might have to be pro-active to begin your Catholic religous formation outside of the next scheduled RCIA program in your area . Why not speak to a priest and see if you can’t accompany him on a Saturday or Sunday when he visits hospitals and/or nursing homes . You two could discuss the faith in the car between calls and over lunch and during any other down time during the day . Please , get creative .
Sure Catholic schools ( and parishes ) close and/or consolidate , but that is far more the case of demographic shifts than a decline in membership . I grew up in a northeastern inner city with 2 Catholic churches one block apart , each with their own elementary school . What happened was upward mobility and population shift. I don’t want to live where I grew up ,and neither did my parents ( there was an exit strategy ) . Where I currently live my parish had to expand their elementary school , but 15-20 miles away parishes and schools are consolidating .This doesn’t mean there are less Catholics . Re: priests , the Pontifical Yearbook reveals that priests are unevenly distributed , and there can be a problem of getting them where you need them . Personally , I don’t care about the nationality of my priests . Seeing foreign priests reminds me of the universality of our Church . Could we use more priests ? Sure , but the pontificate of John Paul ll did a lot to grow vocations .The average age of seminarians is declining , which is good .
The Main Stream Media is far more likely to report negative or discouraging news about the Catholic Church than they are positive news . If you don’t believe me , tell me where you read or heard about the news in the most recent Pontifical Yearbook I described ? They don’t have to lie , all they have to do is censor .
 
I think one of the main things Luther stood for was that we all have an indivdual relationship with God. We may repent and ask forgiveness in our prayers. We don’t need to ask for an indulgence form the church.
Yes, of course. This is what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is all about. Indulgences are optional. You may learn more about them here on CAF, or the Catechism.
Code:
In my rant, I was using his name to put a name on my own frustrations with the church being slow to educate interested people.
In the early days, you would have been a Catechuman for 3 years. So, waiting until Fall is not that long. When you are received into the Church on the Pascal Vigil, you will be glad you waited.
In my frustrated state, I did not see why someone intrested in becoming a Catholic in January should be waiting until September to START RCIA classes. I think there should be a more fluid system in place for people to gain knowledge on a 1 on 1 basis or small group or one of a thousand solutions instead of “Great, come back in 9 months and we’ll get ya going”
I agree. However, since this is not common, it will help if you take your faith formation onto yourself as your own responsibility. You can begin by studying the Catechism, and posting your questions here at CAF - Probably over in Apologetics.
I took the attitude of maybe Luther was on to something. Maybe the Church has gotten too big. So big that the individuals are nothing more than I don’t know, numbers on a Parish roster. Where’s the passion? Where’s the bread of life?
Apparently you have it all? 😃
If someone is hearing God call them specifically to the Catholic Church, why not explore that with a person right away?
YOu certainly do not need to wait to get yourself a spiritual director. You can ask at the Parish, or the Archdiocese office. Often you can get one at a monastic community nearby.
Code:
At the end of the day it just seems like bad business.  I think the Catholic Church is a beautiful thing I want to be a part of it.  I know I need patience.  It's just sometimes I wish there was more programming for new comers.
I wish this too. Often our ministry claims us through that which nags the most. Maybe it is your calling to fill this gap?
I remember that was the best part of joining the Church I’m coming from. The people you meet that want you to feel like a part of the church family and they teel you “Don’t forget Bible study on Wednesday”. Sometimes I feel like a beggar, asking for some scraps of spiritual food from the people who are in charge of “new people” Unanswered emails, unavailable for appointments. I’m not trying to bother anyone, I just want what the Catholic Church has to offer and I don’t see why new people have to be treated like we’re not to be told the big secret until we’re ready. Well guess what! He died for my sins too! You can’t keep Jesus all to yourself!
I can understand your frustration. But has it occurred to you that God’s plan for your faith formation is that you take part of the journey individually? Maybe there is some asking, seeking, and knocking He wants you to do at His door that you can only do on your own?
That’s what I mean by I deserve mine too. I sincerly believe in the time of Jesus, if someone wanted to know Jesus he would have said bring him/her to me period.
On the contrary, as the Church became persecuted, they were very careful about who was admitted to the Sacraments and the Catechumenate. Potentials had to have a sponsor, someone with good standing in the Church to vouch for them, just like Paul had Barnabas, to make sure they were not enemies.
I think RCIA is man-made Jesus never required it EVER. He said baptize make deciples. Jesus said “follow me” they put down their nets ans followed period.
You are right in that the Church has gotten much bigger, and the porcess is more complex. However, there has always been a Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults.

Acts 2:40-42
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. **42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. **

Catechesis takes a lot of devotion and commitment, and it is wise to count the cost before jumping into it. It sounds like you are resolved on this, so make the most of the time, and begin studying. 👍
My crack about the church dying was in poor taste and I apologize. I was told there is a shortage of priests and churches are closing all over but a couple Priests here in the Twin Cities. Because of past things that happend (like to my mom) the church is suffering a bit I was told there going through a kind of reconciling.
The Church has suffered, primarily because of wolves among the sheep. Some of the buildings and land had to be sold to pay settlements for their wicked deeds. CAF is a great resource to learn about your faith. To be honest, I have learned more here than I ever did in RCIA.

Here are some resources:

archspm.org/news-events/events-detail.php?intResourceID=3878

cnaff.org/

dosafl.com/navSubLanding.asp?HorizSubNavID=104

tunein.com/radio/stations/EWTN-Catholic-Radio-Radio-Stations-a37944/

I highly recommend CAtholic Radio or TV in your area. This will also be more helpful than RCIA. 😉
 
Salvation is not an instantaneous event. It is a lifelong process.
The thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved the moment he expressed faith in Jesus and admitted his guilt (and he was not baptized) (he never had to deal with the doctrine of purgatory either ;)). I agree that the relationship with Jesus is a lifelong process. I also believe that salvation can be forfeited just as was demonstrated by Ananias and Sophira… and Judas … but salvation exists from the moment of repentance (as happened with the thief) and remains as long as the heart maintains the same attitude.
Paul addresses the ‘saints’ in the various churches in his letters. I dont believe that Paul was using some generic term … Those people were and are ‘saints’ in the highest sense of the word… as long as they didnt deliberately walk away from their ‘first love’.
 
note the 'do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart". I think it’s pretty much a given that a Christian who is not Catholic knows the Gospel of Christ and that such a person seeks God with a sincere heart. Notice the CCC says “know the Gospel of Christ OR his Church”. He didn’t write “AND His Church”. This was an acknowledgement by the Pope that there are many different Christian religions and though the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth, the others lead people to Christ as well.
The Catholic Church does not, nor can it teach there are many paths to God. I’m sorry you seem to be the only one here who thinks this, but that ought to give you a clue your wrong.

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it”

The ONE church is the mediator and the way of Salvation! Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the CC was founded as necassary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter of remain in it. 🤷

Pretty much sums it up 🤷

I believe, you believe, your Priest told you what you claim here, but the fact is its incorrect in the Catechism, Doctrine and Dogma of the Church.

Catholic dogma is well known: that one cannot be saved outside the Catholic Church, and that those who knowingly rebel against the teaching and authority of the Church cannot obtain eternal salvation. {Pope Pius} IX Letter Quanto conficiamur maerore, August 10, 1863,}

First error: “Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.” (Proposition XV).

Second error: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation.” (Proposition XVI).

Third error: “Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.” (Proposition XVII).

Fourth error: “Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.” (Proposition XVIII). [Pius IX: Principal errors concerning the Church, Syllabus, Dec. 8, 1884 (CH 260-263)]

“Surely, Catholics desire nothing so much as the disappearance from among Christians of all schisms and dissensions, and that all should be eager to keep unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. That is why the Catholic Church prays and invites the faithful to pray to Almighty God that all those who have left the holy Roman Church may be converted to the true faith, may abjure their errors, and return in grace to her fold, outside of which there is no salvation. Moreover, she prays and orders prayers that all men may come, with the help of God’s grace, to the knowledge of truth. But that Christians and ecclesiastics should pray for Christian unity under the direction of heretics and, what is worse, according to an intention which is radically impregnated and vitiated by heresy, this is absolutely impossible to tolerate.”
[Letter from the Holy Office, Sept. 16, 1864 to the English Episcopate (CH 254)].

You know you could start another Thread on this in the Catholic section of this forum. But you need to be not so, defensive because I assure you, the many paths theory is not Catholic Teaching. And your simply not going to find Catholics who agree with you. Its impossible. As more post you will at some point conclude your wrong, because their is no contrary Catholic teaching. It doesn’t exist.

God Bless, Gary
 
Yes, I did, and went over it with my family priest. Have you?
Good for you! 👍 It would behoove more Catholics to read their Catechism, and talk about what is there.
Also note the 'do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart". I think it’s pretty much a given that a Christian who is not Catholic knows the Gospel of Christ and that such a person seeks God with a sincere heart. Notice the CCC says “know the Gospel of Christ OR his Church”. He didn’t write “AND His Church”. This was an acknowledgement by the Pope that there are many different Christian religions and though the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth, the others lead people to Christ as well.
It is an acknowlegement only that people may have access to a Bible, but not to the Church, or know a Christian, but have neither of the other two.

Of course there is acknowledgement that there is truth in all religions, and that the Holy Spirit works through these to bring souls to Himself. This is also part of the Catechism. But when they come to Christ, they come through the Church, as He cannot be separated from His One Body.
 
The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people? Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
👍👍👍👍
 
the post you are applauding is not to be commended. The attitude it presents is one of rebellion, which is contrary to the laws of God.
It also contains several serious theological errors, not the least of which is a deficient understanding of the Church, the bride of Christ.
 
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