State religion

[ThinkingSapien]

I think you’re confusing “religion” with “church”.

Or it could be that organized/institutionalized religion is what is in mind here. Not all implementations of religion are organized religion.

I would think that a state established religion, as referred to in the First Amendment, means a religion that you must join. Where does one join the Christian religion? I can join the Catholic religion. I can join the Baptist religion. Where is this Christian religion located? What are its tenets? A religion has a set of tenets that must be adhered to in order to be a member.

Torcaso v. Watkins (1961) broke that mold.

One could follow Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Secular Humanism*, Unitarian/Universalist, Wiccan, or others without joining an organization. Many of these were named in Torcase v. Watkins (1961). It’s interesting to note that closely after this case that the cases that impacted prayer and bible reading in school came about, **Engel v. Vitale **(1962), Murray v. Curlett (1963), and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963).

• • Ironically while this is considered a religion in a legal context an emphasis of Secular Humanism is being good without religion.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Usually something along the lines of “accepting Jesus Christ as your savior.”

Here is a statement of faith by one - covlife.org/about/beliefs

T. E. Hanna is a Christian who does not believe that Christians should accept Jesus as their personal savior. You can google his article, 5 Reasons Why Christians Should NOT Accept Jesus As Their Personal Savior.

Then there’s Ray Dubuque. He thinks that all there is to being Christian is being a liberal, and of course ignoring Saint Paul, who distorts Christ’s message. I think he’s a Christian without a church, but I don’t know for sure. .

Then there was a Christian by the name of Adolph Hitler, who wrote: “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.”

So don’t tell me that Christianity is a religion, not in the sense that the First Amendment meant anyway. No religion is big enough to include all these varying beliefs about Christ. Yet, these people profess to be Christians. If you put them all under the same tent, I’d think you’d have to rename that religion, Anarchy or “Believe-what-you-want-to-believe-about-Christ-ism.” .

 

[ngill09]

T. E. Hanna is a Christian who does not believe that Christians should accept Jesus as their personal savior. You can google his article, 5 Reasons Why Christians Should NOT Accept Jesus As Their Personal Savior.

Then there’s Ray Dubuque. He thinks that all there is to being Christian is being a liberal, and of course ignoring Saint Paul, who distorts Christ’s message. I think he’s a Christian without a church, but I don’t know for sure. .

Then there was a Christian by the name of Adolph Hitler, who wrote: “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.”

So don’t tell me that Christianity is a religion, not in the sense that the First Amendment meant anyway. No religion is big enough to include all these varying beliefs about Christ. Yet, these people profess to be Christians. If you put them all under the same tent, I’d think you’d have to rename that religion, Anarchy or “Believe-what-you-want-to-believe-about-Christ-ism.” .

And then we have Catholics who support birth control and gay marriage. How far down the rabbit-hole do you want to go? Is anything a religion? And the same can be said about Islam, Buddhism, etc.

At least now that you’ve established that “Christian” is a meaningless word, we can dispense with calling the United States a “Christian Nation”.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

T. E. Hanna is a Christian who does not believe that Christians should accept Jesus as their personal savior. You can google his article, 5 Reasons Why Christians Should NOT Accept Jesus As Their Personal Savior.

Then there’s Ray Dubuque. He thinks that all there is to being Christian is being a liberal, and of course ignoring Saint Paul, who distorts Christ’s message. I think he’s a Christian without a church, but I don’t know for sure. .

Then there was a Christian by the name of Adolph Hitler, who wrote: “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.”

So don’t tell me that Christianity is a religion, not in the sense that the First Amendment meant anyway. No religion is big enough to include all these varying beliefs about Christ. Yet, these people profess to be Christians. If you put them all under the same tent, I’d think you’d have to rename that religion, Anarchy or “Believe-what-you-want-to-believe-about-Christ-ism.” .

I congratulate you in combining two logical fallacies in to one statement Reductio ad absurdum and no true Scotsman.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia - newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm

In the following article an account is given of Christianity as a religion, describing its origin, its relation to other religions, its essential nature and chief characteristics, but not dealing with its doctrines in detail nor its history as a visible organization. These and other aspects of this great subject will receive treatment under separate titles. Moreover, the Christianity of which we speak is that which we find realized in the Catholic Church alone; hence, we are not concerned here with those forms which are embodied in the various non-Catholic Christian sects, whether schismatical or heretical.

Christianity is the name given to that definite system of religious belief and practice which was taught by Jesus Christ in the country of Palestine, during the reign of the Roman Emperor, Tiberius, and was promulgated, after its Founder’s death, for the acceptance of the whole world, by certain chosen men among His followers.

You can call other forms of Christianity heretical or even absurd if you’d like but that is another discussion. Good thing we don’t have some of them teaching our children in school about Jesus Christ - no?

 

[JamesCaruso]

I think you’re confusing “religion” with “church”.

Did England confuse church with religion? It established the Anglican Church as the nation’s religion. That is precisely the sense that the First Amendment gave to religion. Our founding fathers did not want another state religion, or church, take your pick, that many of the original colonists left England to escape from.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I congratulate you in combining two logical fallacies in to one statement Reductio ad absurdum and no true Scotsman.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia - newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm

You can call other forms of Christianity heretical or even absurd if you’d like but that is another discussion. Good thing we don’t have some of them teaching our children in school about Jesus Christ - no?

Well, sir, I was simply addressing your seeming reference to accepting Christ as your savior as a bottom line condition for Christianity as a religion. If that’s not what you meant, I don’t know what you meant by it. Christianity can not be what the First Amendment meant by the establishment of a religion. I don’t have a clue how one could make “Christianity” the nation’s religion, since there is no consensus what that means. The state could in no way enforce compliance with its establishment of a religion, since anyone could claim they are in compliance with their own set of “Christian” rules. Once the state became specific about what constitutes the religion of Christianity, mandated that it was the only allowed religion, then you have a new Christian sect, and that indeed is a religion as contemplated by the First Amendment.

 

[ngill09]

Well, sir, I was simply addressing your seeming reference to accepting Christ as your savior as a bottom line condition for Christianity as a religion. If that’s not what you meant, I don’t know what you meant by it. Christianity can not be what the First Amendment meant by the establishment of a religion. I don’t have a clue how one could make “Christianity” the nation’s religion, since there is no consensus what that means. The state could in no way enforce compliance with its establishment of a religion, since anyone could claim they are in compliance with their own set of “Christian” rules. Once the state became specific about what constitutes the religion of Christianity, mandated that it was the only allowed religion, then you have a new Christian sect, and that indeed is a religion as contemplated by the First Amendment.

Oh, I see what you’re doing here. Ok, as long as the word “Christian” is utterly devoid of any meaning, then I suppose it is not a religion, any more than “Frigglebiggles” is a religion. But the minute you attribute any religious meaning to the word “Christian”, then it becomes a religion.

Frankly, I’m dumbfounded by this new strategy of Catholics (and yes, it seems unique to Catholics, I haven’t heard this from any other Christian). If you really want to say Christianity is a meaningless concept, go ahead.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Oh, I see what you’re doing here. Ok, as long as the word “Christian” is utterly devoid of any meaning, then I suppose it is not a religion, any more than “Frigglebiggles” is a religion. But the minute you attribute any religious meaning to the word “Christian”, then it becomes a religion.

Frankly, I’m dumbfounded by this new strategy of Catholics (and yes, it seems unique to Catholics, I haven’t heard this from any other Christian). If you really want to say Christianity is a meaningless concept, go ahead.

Nope, not saying that at all. A religion as contemplated by the 1st Amendment is a church that can be joined. The state would not establish a general concept, as that would be unenforceable. The only meaning I can place on the establishment of religion as in the amendment is the establishment of a well defined belief system with the possibility of church membership.

 

[ngill09]

Nope, not saying that at all. A religion as contemplated by the 1st Amendment is a church that can be joined. The state would not establish a general concept, as that would be unenforceable. The only meaning I can place on the establishment of religion as in the amendment is the establishment of a well defined belief system with the possibility of church membership.

Well you’re at odds with the Supreme Court and decades, if not centuries, of legal precedent.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Well you’re at odds with the Supreme Court and decades, if not centuries, of legal precedent.

That puts me in pretty good stead!

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Although I find the concept bizzare at best, where does Nondenominational Christianity fit in to “Christianity is not a Religion”

 

[JamesCaruso]

Although I find the concept bizzare at best, where does Nondenominational Christianity fit in to “Christianity is not a Religion”

A rose by any other name smells the same? I’m not even sure what nondenominational Christianity means. It is, but it isn’t? If it has a meeting place and you can be a member, I guess it defines itself as a church. If it has neither, I guess its a philosophy or slant on life.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

A rose by any other name smells the same? I’m not even sure what nondenominational Christianity means. It is, but it isn’t? If it has a meeting place and you can be a member, I guess it defines itself as a church. If it has neither, I guess its a philosophy or slant on life.

If simply a philosophy - what are the tenets?

 

[JamesCaruso]

If simply a philosophy - what are the tenets?

General stuff like “love thy neighbor”, be a good person, return good for evil, be humble. do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love your enemy, forgive everyone, trust in God, follow the good example of Jesus, follow principles espoused by Jesus, live free or die, “be prepared”, don’t take any wooden nickels. Not completely certain. Whatever people attribute to the philosophy taught by Jesus.

 

[Brendan_64]

Pray wan’t abolished. It just was no longer enforced or sponsored by the school faculty.

Also allowed. Before the pledge to the flag in my school there was a moment set aside for silent meditation, prayer, or what ever you wanted to do with it.

Being from the UK and having almost no knowledge about the US public education system, do kids really have to pledge to the flag? Isn’t that in itself a form of secular prayer?

Is it right to expect people to pledge allegiance to a secular, political-cultural, man-made nation? Even if people are allowed to opt out, the implication is that this is something that people ought to do.

Personally I wouldn’t pledge allegiance to anything other than God.

Interestingly, in UK schools there is no pledge of allegiance in schools to the flag (or Queen or country) but every state-funded school is obliged by law to have a ‘daily act of worship’ of some sort in school. It usually takes the form of an assembly involving a non-denominational prayer to God and perhaps some traditional hymn at the end. But no pledge of allegiance to anything secular in UK schools.

 

[ngill09]

Let’s pull out the definition book and see what a “religion” is.

Merriam Webster:
re·li·gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\

Definition of RELIGION
1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : **the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance **
2
: **a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices **
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Dictionary.com:
re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
**a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. **
2.
**a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. **
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

There you go. Christianity is a religion. I can’t believe we’re arguing about this.

 

[ngill09]

And let’s look at the definition of Christianity:

From Wikipedia:

Christianity is a monotheistic[2] and Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in canonical gospels and other New Testament writings as well as the Old Testament.

From Merriam-Webster:

Chris·tian·i·ty noun \ˌkris-chē-ˈa-nə-tē, ˌkrish-, -ˈcha-nə-, ˌkris-tē-ˈa-\

Definition of CHRISTIANITY
1
: the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies
2
: conformity to the Christian religion
3
: the practice of Christianity
See Christianity defined for English-language learners »
See Christianity defined for kids »

From The-Free-Dictionary.com:

Chris·ti·an·i·ty (krsch-n-t, krst-)
n.

1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

From Conservapedia:

Christianity is the world’s largest religion, having 2.1 billion followers with a presence on all seven continents.[1] It is a monotheistic religion that professes belief in Jesus (in the Hebrew original, “Yeshua HaMashiach”) as the Son of God.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

General stuff like “love thy neighbor”, be a good person, return good for evil, be humble. do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love your enemy, forgive everyone, trust in God, follow the good example of Jesus, follow principles espoused by Jesus, live free or die, “be prepared”, don’t take any wooden nickels. Not completely certain. Whatever people attribute to the philosophy taught by Jesus.

So an atheist Christian isn’t out of the question. Also there are rituals or rules or other trappings.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Let’s pull out the definition book and see what a “religion” is.

Merriam Webster:
re·li·gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\

Definition of RELIGION
1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : **the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance **
2
: **a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices **
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Dictionary.com:
re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
**a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. **
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

There you go. Christianity is a religion. I can’t believe we’re arguing about this.

You’re a smart person. Go back and read the first amendment and see the context in which it was written. It was clearly talking about the fact that the state should not be allowed to dictate a religion in the sense of a church as England had done and which was one of the causes for many to flee to America. Establishment of religion means a state church pure and simple in the context of the first amendment and the early history of this country. .

 

[ngill09]

You’re a smart person. Go back and read the first amendment and see the context in which it was written. It was clearly talking about the fact that the state should not be allowed to dictate a religion in the sense of a church as England had done and which was one of the causes for many to flee to America. Establishment of religion means a state church pure and simple in the context of the first amendment and the early history of this country. .

Actually, having read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, as well as a lot of the writings of Jefferson, it becomes clear that the First Amendment is tied extensively to freedom of thought. While it certainly bans the establishment of a State Church, it goes well beyond that.

You’ve already shown that you’re willing to redefine both Christianity and Religion, I think your dishonest tactics speak volumes for you.