State religion

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Roscoe_Turner said:
I think you are expecting too much from the education system if you can’t see the analogy to other government and private services. I don’t send my children to a doctor or music teacher because of their religious affiliation.

Schools are not in place to teach values. They teach academics. Hopefully your children have been Religiously and value educated by you before and during schooling.
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Do you support programs in public schools that teach that homosexuality is normal? What about sex-ed programs? What about anti-bullying programs? What about teaching kids about the dangers of smoking? Or the importance of eating healthy foods or exercising? The fact of the matter is that all schools teach values. The question is whose values should they teach. I’d prefer to see parents making those decisions, you seem content letting the government decide the issue. This is radically opposed to your professed esteem for the opinions of Jefferson et al.

Your analogy to private services is absurd. Anyone can open a bank for example and display crucifixes - there is no law against that. Is that the case in public schools? Your analogy to public services is equally weak. Are road-workers in loco parentis of my children? Are school teachers?
 
ThinkingSapien said:
That’s not true. Public schools can’t indoctrinate some one with a specific religion or god concept, but references to god-concepts are not prohibited. They are contextually relevant in some classes (history, social studies, literature). Preferential treatment can’t be given to any specific god concept. So within a public school you may hear about Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Thor, Brahman, Ma’at, or Ba’al among others.
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I didn’t say the “god concept” is outlawed in schools, I said theos (god) is. By current law public education is Godless (atheistic). Introducing various gods as concepts in history classes does nothing to reduce the fact that God had been driven from the school system. You may applaud that and I would disagree with you. You instead deny it, and I’m left questioning your sincerity in this debate.

But all of that is quite beside my point. Parents ought to be empowered to choose whether they want to send their children to schools that are God-centered or schools that are God-less. Why should the federal government make that decision for all families? Would you support the government if it decided the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary would accompany the Pledge at the beginning of each school day or do you only support the federal government because they are indoctrinating children into your worldview?
 
PietroPaolo said:
I didn’t say the “god concept” is outlawed in schools, I said theos (god) is. By current law public education is Godless (atheistic). Introducing various gods as concepts in history classes does nothing to reduce the fact that God had been driven from the school system. You may applaud that and I would disagree with you. You instead deny it, and I’m left questioning your sincerity in this debate.

But all of that is quite beside my point. Parents ought to be empowered to choose whether they want to send their children to schools that are God-centered or schools that are God-less. Why should the federal government make that decision for all families? Would you support the government if it decided the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary would accompany the Pledge at the beginning of each school day or do you only support the federal government because they are indoctrinating children into your worldview?
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Again you’re saying that everything that does not specifically endorse your religious dogma is atheistic. That is simply not true. The absence of your preferred indoctrination is not in itself indoctrination to the opposite. You’re never going to get the majority of the country, which is not Catholic, to pay you to indoctrinate your children.

Next your going to complain about how schools spend to much time teaching kids hobbies like nonstampcollecting.
 
PietroPaolo said:
Do you support programs in public schools that teach that homosexuality is normal? What about sex-ed programs? What about anti-bullying programs? What about teaching kids about the dangers of smoking? Or the importance of eating healthy foods or exercising? The fact of the matter is that all schools teach values. The question is whose values should they teach. I’d prefer to see parents making those decisions, you seem content letting the government decide the issue. This is radically opposed to your professed esteem for the opinions of Jefferson et al.

Your analogy to private services is absurd. Anyone can open a bank for example and display crucifixes - there is no law against that. Is that the case in public schools? Your analogy to public services is equally weak. Are road-workers in loco parentis of my children? Are school teachers?
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They aren’t making a moral/value judgement on Homosexuality. That isn’t their job. They aren’t teaching religion. Hopefully my children are informed about sexual reproduction before they get the talk in school. Again it’s nuts and bolts not values. Smoking is dangerous - fact, not a value judgement. Eating healthy and exercise are important to maintaining health -fact not a value judgement.

Again I teach my values at home. They are going into the world, I will not be able to hold their hand always.

Something not addressed yet is, if this the utmost concern, you can always homeschool. You can then control every aspect. It is an education choice available to you.
 
PietroPaolo said:
I didn’t say the “god concept” is outlawed in schools, I said theos (god) is. By current law public education is Godless (atheistic). Introducing various gods as concepts in history classes does nothing to reduce the fact that God had been driven from the school system.
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If you are talking about the entity behind the god-concept that you have in mind, I don’t think there is anything prohibiting said entity from entering the school or any other place at will.
PietroPaolo said:
You may applaud that and I would disagree with you. You instead deny it, and I’m left questioning your sincerity in this debate.
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Debate? It’s my intent to converse, not debate.
PietroPaolo said:
Why should the federal government make that decision for all families?
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I think the federal government is trying to keep schools theologically neutral.
PietroPaolo said:
Would you support the government if it decided the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary would accompany the Pledge at the beginning of each school day…
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During the time that I entered high school the pledge became optional. Once it became optional the students voluntarily decided to no longer say it. Many of the classmates I interacted with closely were Hindu and Buddhist (though one of the Hindu’s was wondering if any of the stuff he had learned about his gods were true, but that’s another topic). Some of my class mates were Muslim. These are not atheist, but these are also people to which the prayers you mentioned above would not be applicable. The Jehovah’s witnesses also don’t recite prayers. They consider recited prayers to not be “from the heart.” Already you may notice that one may be religious and have conflicts with what you are suggesting.

There was a moment of silence that was set aside for which all students had to participate. If a student wanted to silently pray he or she could use that moment to do so. There were also before and after school student led religious groups for those students that wanted to participated.
PietroPaolo said:
or do you only support the federal government because they are indoctrinating children into your worldview?
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I also think the premise to this question is false. So this question doesn’t have applicability to me.
 
ngill09 said:
Again you’re saying that everything that does not specifically endorse your religious dogma is atheistic. That is simply not true. The absence of your preferred indoctrination is not in itself indoctrination to the opposite. You’re never going to get the majority of the country, which is not Catholic, to pay you to indoctrinate your children.

Next your going to complain about how schools spend to much time teaching kids hobbies like nonstampcollecting.
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You oppose choice plain and simple. That is where we part ways. As this is a pluralistic society where we are to tolerate one another, I oppose the government using tax dollars to prop up any one worldview - including your atheistic worldview. You prefer the government to force religious parents of any stripe to pay into schools that support your Godless worldview. You may claim that a Godless educational system is not equivalent to an atheistic educational system but you have failed to demonstrate how this so. You seem to feel that religion is another hobby like collecting stamps, obviously any religious person would disagree. Why should your view of religion-as-hobby dominate publicly funded schools?****
 
ThinkingSapien said:
If you are talking about the entity behind the god-concept that you have in mind, I don’t think there is anything prohibiting said entity from entering the school or any other place at will.

Debate? It’s my intent to converse, not debate.

I think the federal government is trying to keep schools theologically neutral.

During the time that I entered high school the pledge became optional. Once it became optional the students voluntarily decided to no longer say it. Many of the classmates I interacted with closely were Hindu and Buddhist (though one of the Hindu’s was wondering if any of the stuff he had learned about his gods were true, but that’s another topic). Some of my class mates were Muslim. These are not atheist, but these are also people to which the prayers you mentioned above would not be applicable. The Jehovah’s witnesses also don’t recite prayers. They consider recited prayers to not be “from the heart.” Already you may notice that one may be religious and have conflicts with what you are suggesting.

There was a moment of silence that was set aside for which all students had to participate. If a student wanted to silently pray he or she could use that moment to do so. There were also before and after school student led religious groups for those students that wanted to participated.

I also think the premise to this question is false. So this question doesn’t have applicability to me.
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But the question remains, is the fed gov making a theologically neutral space by creating a Godless space? You cannot create a space without God as a neutral ground between atheists and theists - obviously any such space is anything but neutral.
 
RobbyS said:
Yet, paradoxically, the world view of the non-believers dominates the academic world and the public schools.
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👍 In an effort to not be partial to any particular religious view, the state has managed to offend nearly everyone. Forbidding even the mention of God in schools, the state has taken an absurd position in a country where 99% of the populace believes in God. I for one believe that the small faction of atheists who care about this issue should just have to tough it out while the schools set aside a time for prayer and while they allow, even encourage, the mention of God in the classroom curriculum and in addresses to the student body.
 
PietroPaolo said:
You oppose choice plain and simple. That is where we part ways. As this is a pluralistic society where we are to tolerate one another, I oppose the government using tax dollars to prop up any one worldview - including your atheistic worldview. You prefer the government to force religious parents of any stripe to pay into schools that support your Godless worldview. You may claim that a Godless educational system is not equivalent to an atheistic educational system but you have failed to demonstrate how this so. You seem to feel that religion is another hobby like collecting stamps, obviously any religious person would disagree. Why should your view of religion-as-hobby dominate publicly funded schools?****

There is no way you are not a troll.
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JamesCaruso said:
👍 In an effort to not be partial to any particular religious view, the state has managed to offend nearly everyone. Forbidding even the mention of God in schools, the state has taken an absurd position in a country where 99% of the populace believes in God. I for one believe that the small faction of atheists who care about this issue should just have to tough it out while the schools set aside a time for prayer and while they allow, even encourage, the mention of God in the classroom curriculum and in addresses to the student body.
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You are a liar. Why should I want schools to promote a religion that causes people to lie?
 
PietroPaolo said:
. You seem to feel that religion is another hobby like collecting stamps, obviously any religious person would disagree. Why should your view of religion-as-hobby dominate publicly funded schools?
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you missed the reference. YouTube search “nonstampcollector” if you want to understanding. Warning, you might find the content offensive.
 
ngill09 said:
You are a liar. Why should I want schools to promote a religion that causes people to lie?
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Schools should not promote “a religion.” 😉 But they should allow the expression of the general belief of the populace at large. That the Creator was mentioned in our Declaration of Independence was no accident.
 
ngill09 said:
You are a liar. Why should I want schools to promote a religion that causes people to lie?
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Again, it doesn’t matter what you want. It should be up to the parents, not up to the fed gov or ngil09 to decide what educational environment other people’s kids are placed in. Choice, it’s not just for killing babies.
 
PietroPaolo said:
Yeah, I’m a Catholic trolling CAF by arguing that State funds should support Catholic schools… 🤷
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I’m finding it increasingly likely that you’re an atheist trolling CAF to make Catholics look like idiots.
 
JamesCaruso said:
👍 In an effort to not be partial to any particular religious view, the state has managed to offend nearly everyone. Forbidding even the mention of God in schools, the state has taken an absurd position in a country where 99% of the populace believes in God. I for one believe that the small faction of atheists who care about this issue should just have to tough it out while the schools set aside a time for prayer and while they allow, even encourage, the mention of God in the classroom curriculum and in addresses to the student body.
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About 16% of the population in America is non-religious.

religions.pewforum.org/reports

A more recent report puts it at 20%

pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx

Government - “We can’t please everyone, so we’ll please nobody.” 😃
 
JamesCaruso said:
No, According to your link, they are unaffiliated, which does not mean they don’t believe in God… 12% of them are nothing in particular, and more than 2% are agnostic. A mere 1.6 percent are atheist.
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The second one breaks it down more. I tried to copy and paste the chart it but to no avail.
In terms of their religious beliefs and practices, the unaffiliated are a diverse group, and far from uniformly secular. Just 5% say they attend worship services on a weekly basis. But one-third of the unaffiliated say religion is at least somewhat important in their lives. Two-thirds believe in God (though less than half say they are absolutely certain of God’s existence). And although a substantial minority of the unaffiliated consider themselves neither religious nor spiritual (42%), the majority describe themselves either as a religious person (18%) or as spiritual but not religious (37%).
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Roscoe_Turner said:
The second one breaks it down more. I tried to copy and paste the chart it but to no avail.
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Nearly everyone believes in God. Some are on the fence. Only a tiny number are atheists. My point is, forbidding the mention of God is an absurd position to take when nearly everyone believes there is a God and most that don’t are not at all offended by the mention of God. It is a very small number of activists who have pushed for the elimination of even the mention of God in our schools. I don’t think the mention of God violates the first amendment anymore than does the mention of God in the DOI or prayer at a session of Congress.
 
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