wow!
thanks so much for expressing so eloquently what I was trying to state and also what I believe to be truth as put forth by The Catholic church…dude you rock KJK80 post seem to be so erratic to me, seems to be opposed Catholic doctrine or at least has a bad way of promoting the Church? whats with the LOCTITE:shrug: stuff.so you finally come clean, you think gay sex, gay marriage is all good, as I suspected you are not in support of the Catholic doctrine in regards to the issue at hand.I am on board 100% with the Catholic catechism as stated previously.I can having trouble understanding why some Catholics remain with the church if they do have faith in the church? I hope your stance on the gay lifestyle changes as I can assure the Catholic church will never reverse course.I hope you remain Catholic and work out your problems with theological issues.Re: parish/priest. I’m not going to go into any details here, but I would say my issues with this topic were torn fresh due to actions taken in two local parishes including and especially my own. And to clarify, away from the keyboard and process I’m going through right now, you and I would probably come to a quick agreement.
This all saddens me, because I have attended this parish since before I was Catholic, I was married here, I became Catholic here and my children were baptized here. I probably wouldn’t be Catholic without this parish…
On the flip side of the argument, a lot of my “points” come from having friendships with homosexuals from a fairly early age. To be clear, I never ever, even had the thought of “experimenting” within my own sexual orientation… It was never a thought, even when encouraged to do so. My parents never took much time on the subject except to say “yuck” so I would say, if someone could be influenced on this matter, it’d be me… but it never came up.
Furthermore, to be honest, I’m absolutely looking for opposite viewpoints on thoughts I “throw out” mainly to be able to knock them down myself or uphold them, as it goes. I play “the other side” just as hard with those of the opposite viewpoint, believe me.
The problem I’m having here, to get back to the original point, is that there’s little room for me to justify, on any level, the situation at hand. And I think I’m more frustrated at that than anything. I still need to continue forming my opinion on the matter (that’s been forming for a long time) and I still think there’s a simple solution to the complex problem that we haven’t arrived at yet… and I’m sure my exact, personal viewpoint will continue to change about 1,000,000 times, but again, there seems no justification for the situation at hand.
So I don’t know, perhaps I’ll figure a way to come to grips with it, without affecting other’s at the parish and my children negatively–but hey, I became Catholic, I’m already going to hell in the rest of my family’s eyes…
(Oh and to those who want to state that I’m not in accordance with the Catholic church because of my “forming viewpoint” please save your breath/fingers. It’s my process, not yours).
it is your process and you will be judged on the day of reckoning for your actions, as we all will be. We have the ability to chose between good and evil and clearly the gay lifestyle is evil.Your issue seems to be a lack of faith? anyway I am out of here for awhile, got a good life to live:bounce:sorry, this THREAD was to point out KJK80 history of being at odds with Catholic doctrine…which she currently denies:shrug: I must have been tired last night:coffeeread:
I’ve pointed this out in the past, but I don’t think questioning or doubting Church teaching is an issue worth leaving the Church. Of course we are called to obedience, but I don’t think we should ask, or expect, people to leave the Church for doubting or questioning Church teaching.
But for those seeking the truth, and are unsure about the truth, it isn’t as clear. It is clear to you and I that homosexual acts are gravely disordered, and are sinful. Individual guilt for the sins of those acts depends upon the circumstances. But those that are truly trying to discern the truth of those acts, should be encouraged to discuss and remain in the Church as long as they are obedient. Remember, it is acts that separate us from God, not just thoughts.
It is just a matter of time.
Just a couple of points for you.OK, using only the CCC… And this is honestly aside from the other issue, just trying to continue this is a logical fashion.
CCC: "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”
Secular opinion: “In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder. The American Psychological Association Council of Representatives followed in 1975.”
CCC: “They are contrary to the natural law.”
I honestly need to study this more… But this seems to be largely based on Summa Theologica… which I would contend to have little bearing in the secular environment at this time.
CCC: “They close the sexual act to the gift of life.”
Which I would again state that in the secular environment, this can be quickly answered by: “Well, 10% are gay, and that’s the breaks.” My personal opinion here is to question how is this an issue if homosexuals are later called to a life of chastity?
CCC: “They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.”
I’d agree with that.
CCC: “Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
I need more info on what constitutes “approval”
CCC: "This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. "
Wording here disturbs me, I need to sit on that a bit.
CCC: “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”
OK, how how how? Easy, give us the “end result” but I need a better roadmap!! I want a “next step.”
CCC: “These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
OK, what’s God’s will? “Condition” may throw up red flags. “if they are Christians” – wait, you can be homosexual and Christian?
CCC: “Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”
OK, so again, why the earlier point of “gift of life” ? How do you obtain this “self-mastery” ? Who has examples and testimonials of this “inner freedom” ? “Disinterested friendship” is what? Seems an oxy-moron?
Is “Christian perfection” to remain homosexual and live a life of chastity? (Along with the rest of the “rules” that apply to the rest of us.
Please don’t take any of this as me being mean-spirited AT ALL. I’m honestly asking, for those that may have more experience, how do you approach the subject to a non-Christian and/or Christian homosexual based on the CCC? Again, there seems to be a lot of end results with little in the way of “next steps”… and the “next steps” that I observe will not have the results the CCC is after…
So I’m admittedly lost, especially on how to approach this issue based on the CCC that does not include an element of faith in God, the Bible and the Catholic Church…
I truly admire those of you that have the subject summed up so well in your minds. I assume you’ve had a lot more experience dealing with this issue “in real life” than I. So I implore you to please share your examples and experiences of how you have dealt with homosexuals in your life. Especially those who do not believe in God, the Bible or the Catholic Church. But also those that do…
Thank-you!
OK, so the target audience of the entirety of your statement seems to be:
I totally agree, however you can see this is rather frustrating for me, she is asking about the logic of why church doctrine is opposed to the gay lifestyle, ITS RIGHT THERE IN THE CATECHISM, but she refuses to believe what the church stance is on the gay lifestyle…and probably never will? it seems that the catechism is based on what the Catholic church believes to be true and what Jesus would have supported? I mean the Pope is th vicar of Christ and he approves of all Catholic doctrine…right? no problem here with doctrine and therefore I am opposed to the gay lifestyle.
If you posted/ described the situation at hand that you reference I missed it. I guess, from our previous conversation, that it involves active gay communicants in your Parish. Given your history with that Parish … you have standing and credibility. I would find at least one like minded/ concerned person … a Priest or fellow Parishioner and make an appointment with the Pastor. Voice your concerns and hear his views/ response. Base your future actions on that. The problem is that many in the Priesthood are either gay (inactive or active) or they have friends in the Priesthood that fit that description … toward whom they have a deep loyalty.Re: parish/priest. I’m not going to go into any details here, but I would say my issues with this topic were torn fresh due to actions taken in two local parishes including and especially my own. And to clarify, away from the keyboard and process I’m going through right now, you and I would probably come to a quick agreement.
This all saddens me, because I have attended this parish since before I was Catholic, I was married here, I became Catholic here and my children were baptized here. I probably wouldn’t be Catholic without this parish…
On the flip side of the argument, a lot of my “points” come from having friendships with homosexuals from a fairly early age. To be clear, I never ever, even had the thought of “experimenting” within my own sexual orientation… It was never a thought, even when encouraged to do so. My parents never took much time on the subject except to say “yuck” so I would say, if someone could be influenced on this matter, it’d be me… but it never came up.
Furthermore, to be honest, I’m absolutely looking for opposite viewpoints on thoughts I “throw out” mainly to be able to knock them down myself or uphold them, as it goes. I play “the other side” just as hard with those of the opposite viewpoint, believe me.
The problem I’m having here, to get back to the original point, is that there’s little room for me to justify, on any level, the situation at hand. And I think I’m more frustrated at that than anything. I still need to continue forming my opinion on the matter (that’s been forming for a long time) and I still think there’s a simple solution to the complex problem that we haven’t arrived at yet… and I’m sure my exact, personal viewpoint will continue to change about 1,000,000 times, but again, there seems no justification for the situation at hand.
So I don’t know, perhaps I’ll figure a way to come to grips with it, without affecting other’s at the parish and my children negatively–but hey, I became Catholic, I’m already going to hell in the rest of my family’s eyes…
(Oh and to those who want to state that I’m not in accordance with the Catholic church because of my “forming viewpoint” please save your breath/fingers. It’s my process, not yours).
I am a he.
I did not post the situation. I’m trying to avoid that. I’m trying to learn the ins and outs of the issue, in particular from the Catholic perspective as to find any “get out of jail free card” to justify certain decisions. Kind of like having an annulment.
Whether it be a mental disorder or not, does not change the nature of the act. If the act is disordered, there can be numerous reasons for why it is performed. Perhaps a mental disorder is not one of them, which the APA has concluded. But whatever leads one to do the act does not change the objective fact that the acts are disordered.
It is from the SA, but only because it is the best and fullest explanation to date. But I disagree. It does have bearing on the secular environment because the natural law is not a religious argument. It is, in fact, an analysis of how the world is ordered. There is no appeal to God or the Church when making arguments from the natural law.
I’m note sure what you mean. Remember, this is referring to homosexual acts not homosexuals themselves. The very acts themselves are the problem. Thus chastity itself prevents the act. Without an act, there can be no denial of gift of life (in the act itself).
I think this is left to prudential judgment. But I think that any circumstance that offers any amount of legitimacy to homosexual acts would be approval. Gay “marriage” is a prime example. It puts a shroud of legitimacy (through government acknowledgment) on relationships where the act is a normal, and expected behavior, even if those acts never occur (such as with vows of chastity).
What part? The **acts **are objectively disordered, not the people. And those with such inclinations are a burden to bear, and a trial of effort to resist.
By the same way we treat alcoholics, the suicidal, the violent, and others that participate in objectively disordered acts. We respect the dignity of their person, while recognizing their acts as disordered (and perhaps sinful). Thus we are not to judge the states of their souls or treat them as second class citizens (say refusing to hire, treat at a hospital, provide financial assistance, etc). Their treatment as people should not be conditioned on their inclination, but only on their actions. Is it just to ostracize anyone struggling with any inclination for sinful acts? No, we are to treat them “with respect, compassion and sensitivity.”
By condition, it is meant the inclination to perform homosexual acts. It is a struggle for many (if not all) to resist those urges. But inclinations do preclude one from being Christian. One can be homosexual and Christian.
As explained above, it was the act, not the person, with regard to the “gift of life”. And self-mastery applies to resisting homosexual acts. A great comparison is we are all called to self-mastery with regard to masturbation. And those who struggle with masturbation rely upon the “support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace,” to resist said sin and “gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”CCC: “Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”
OK, so again, why the earlier point of “gift of life” ? How do you obtain this “self-mastery” ? Who has examples and testimonials of this “inner freedom” ? “Disinterested friendship” is what? Seems an oxy-moron?
I don’t think so. I think it mean to live a life free from the sin of homosexual acts. As long as one continues to be challenged by the temptation of homosexual acts, then one is to live a life of chastity.
That is what I explained earlier–an appeal to the natural law. The natural law does not appeal to God, the Bible, or the Church. It observes the natural ends for which something exists. Some level of judgment of actions is required, but the basic assumption is that any act that is contrary to the natural law is to be avoided.
… The fact that it has gotten to the point (not just in your situation) that there is no one to talk to without the risk of irreparable damage … speaks volumes.I did not post the situation. I’m trying to avoid that. I’m trying to learn the ins and outs of the issue, in particular from the Catholic perspective as to find any “get out of jail free card” to justify certain decisions. Kind of like having an annulment.
The problem I have, is due to circumstances I’m not an impartial party. So speaking to anyone within the parish regarding this issue is not an option. It’s not a matter of integrity, only circumstances. And the person in question, I hold as a valued friend. There’s a fair amount at stake for me to discuss this within the parish as even a concern.
When it comes to the teaching of the Church, the target audience is all of mankind. Truth is Truth. It may be that only Catholics will adhere and/or care what the Church teaches, but it applies to all.
).Thank-you!… The fact that it has gotten to the point (not just in your situation) that there is no one to talk to without the risk of irreparable damage … speaks volumes.
I’ll be praying that God gives you the crystal clear wisdom that you need. … and the courage to implement it. … as well as the strength to live out your convictions.
Thanks!Not sure…they have the Ask an Apologist section for faith questions, but I don’t know about “private with full disclosure.” You might want to try calling Catholic Answers’ main switchboard at 619-387-7200 to see if they can help direct you to someone that can help.Let me ask this. Is there someone on here or another resource available where I could discuss this issue with in private with full disclosure so I can explore my alternatives and to also see if I may be overreacting?