M
Megan7
Guest
Thank you McCall! God bless you.:tiphat:
- Status
P
pepipop
Guest
Here is the ‘controversial’ aspect of the so called ‘interview’.
*But are African participants listened to in this regard?
**No, the majority of them [who hold these views won’t speak about them].
**
They’re not listened to?
**In Africa of course [their views are listened to], where it’s a taboo.
**
What has changed for you, regarding the methodology of this synod?
I think in the end there must be a general line in the Church, general criteria, but then the questions of Africa we cannot solve. There must be space also for the local bishops’ conferences to solve their problems **but I’d say with Africa it’s impossible [for us to solve]. ***
Cardinal Kasper states that the African bishops ‘cannot’ speak about their views. Then he says the African bishops views (i.e. homosexuality is outlawed in their country), are of course listened to in Africa.
His second answer **"But they should not tell us too much what we have to do." a German thought obviously translated into English, is quite correct the African bishops’ views on how to handle homosexuality are completely opposite on how the West must handle the the issue, it’s like night and day.
I can only assume that African bishops will have to ensure protection of homosexuals from bigotry and keep any situations related to them totally secret.
How can African bishops pastor to a group that are not allowed to exist, where homosexuality is taboo, where the person will get arrested and jailed if he ‘acts’ like a homosexual, or acts too feminine? So what advice can the African bishops offer to pastoring homosexuals that have the right to legally marry and adopt children - the two situations couldn’t be any further apart.
His comments had absolutely nothing to do with the African bishops, personally - as they all sing from the same hymn sheet - it is to do with their completely different geographic and government situations.
independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/welcome-to-cameroon-where-drinking-baileys-can-lead-to-imprisonment-9729669.html
*A human rights lawyer has described the horrendous treatment experienced by gay people in Cameroon – where drinking a Baileys could put you in prison.
Michel Togue, a Cameroonian lawyer, said he had defended dozens of gay people but few were ever caught in the act. Mr Togue, speaking to the ThinkProgress blog, said the African country uses gender stereotypes to convict gay individuals.
Homosexuality is banned in Cameroon and since 1972 has carried a prison sentence of five years. In one instance, a client of Mr Togue’s was convicted for his feminine mannerisms and drinking Bailey’s Irish Cream – a choice which the judge felt was a woman’s drink.
The atmosphere is having a negative effect on healthcare in the country, particularly HIV testing. They can’t go to the hospital for the treatment or even for a test because they’re afraid,” Togue explained.
In one case he had heard of an individual who was investigated by police after he admitted to a nurse that he’d had same-sex relations and she informed the authorities. *
O
One_point
Guest
You are exaggerating too much. It is one thing to suggest that different countries face different pastoral challenges. It is quite another to say that because of this, those Bishops should not contribute to their brothers in other countries or that their contributions are worthless to the West. If this was so, councils and synods are completey stupid. The church should just discuss all pastoral problems at local level without disussing at the universal level.
But There is nothing different in essence between an African Bishop’s approach to African gay people and Western Bishops. They are both working from the same script: love the person, hate the sin. The only difference I see for some Western Bishops is that “the hate the sin” part is beginning to be pushed in the background or softened while Africans state it bluntly. Western Bishops have been influenced too much by an attacking Secular culture that hates the Church and is always putting them on the defensive. To me, they seem like a mildly persecuted church. The church in Africa is not persecuted by the madness of the West so they can speak honestly and encourage their brothers in the West to be courageous, so to say “Don’t tell us what to do” makes no sense and is indefensible in the context of a SYNOD.
J
JackyB
Guest
As someone who has lived in Africa for most of my life, and now living in the UK, what you say here I completely agree with, Cardinal Kasper cannot deny what he said.You are exaggerating too much. It is one thing to suggest that different countries face different pastoral challenges. It is quite another to say that because of this, those Bishops should not contribute to their brothers in other countries or that their contributions are worthless to the West. If this was so, councils and synods are completey stupid. The church should just discuss all pastoral problems at local level without disussing at the universal level.
But There is nothing different in essence between an African Bishop’s approach to African gay people and Western Bishops. They are both working from the same script: love the person, hate the sin. The only difference I see for some Western Bishops is that “the hate the sin” part is beginning to be pushed in the background or softened while Africans state it bluntly. Western Bishops have been influenced too much by an attacking Secular culture that hates the Church and is always putting them on the defensive. To me, they seem like a mildly persecuted church. The church in Africa is not persecuted by the madness of the West so they can speak honestly and encourage their brothers in the West to be courageous, so to say “Don’t tell us what to do” makes no sense and is indefensible in the context of a SYNOD.
P
pepipop
Guest
Cardinal Kasper said in broken English “But they should not tell us too much what we have to do.”, which could be translated into more user friendly English that the African bishops ‘could’ not offer, rather than ‘should’ not offer much advice as to how the Western parishes should handle pastoral care in relation to homosexuality, where homosexuality is fully recognised and legal in Western society.You are exaggerating too much. It is one thing to suggest that different countries face different pastoral challenges. It is quite another to say that because of this, those Bishops should not contribute to their brothers in other countries or that their contributions are worthless to the West. If this was so, councils and synods are completey stupid. The church should just discuss all pastoral problems at local level without disussing at the universal level.
But There is nothing different in essence between an African Bishop’s approach to African gay people and Western Bishops. They are both working from the same script: love the person, hate the sin. The only difference I see for some Western Bishops is that “the hate the sin” part is beginning to be pushed in the background or softened while Africans state it bluntly. Western Bishops have been influenced too much by an attacking Secular culture that hates the Church and is always putting them on the defensive. To me, they seem like a mildly persecuted church. The church in Africa is not persecuted by the madness of the West so they can speak honestly and encourage their brothers in the West to be courageous, so to say “Don’t tell us what to do” makes no sense and is indefensible in the context of a SYNOD.
Comments made by African Cardinal Turkson, Ghana, in 2010.
*Just as I hesitate to speak globally about Africa, as if it were one and the same, we also need to be careful about generalizing about Western values. In Africa just as in the rest of the world, culture is changing, lifestyles are changing.
Traditionally, it’s of utmost importance for African societies to ensure growth for survival. Therefore, when people say that traditional African societies consider homosexuality taboo, for instance, it’s because any lifestyle that does not lead to the growth of the community is seen as dysfunctional.
A lot of traditional families will have that view. And sometimes that’s exaggerated to the point that when women are infertile, they are ostracized and mistreated.
Of course, as cultures are changing, this view will be challenged. But in a traditional African society, people wouldn’t even tolerate or listen to talk about homosexuality.
*
O
One_point
Guest
I do not understand how anything you wrote is a response to what I wrote. I am in Africa I know African assumptions very well which is why I said earlier that if you went to the more rural African area where western exposure is extremely limited unlike the cities, and asked about a poll on homosexuality, I will be shocked if you don’t get a response coming close to 100% negative response, maybe 99%. To a typical African mind that is nothing short of madness. it is like telling them about marriage with a tree or something like that and that is not exaggeration. it not just “wrong” but something approaching “crazy”. it also not just African minds. it the default human view in my opinion. only the western countries for only very few decades have created a very strange idea which everyone in the world is wondering what is going on to these people who are supposed to be the leaders in everything and the example we are all following? it a shock to other people looking into the west, not just Africans and muslims. this because in the traditional society it one of those things that seem clearly obviously wrong.
the taboo the bishop is talking about is not about homosexuality. Africans don’t talk publicly about sex even if it normal sex especially around family or elders. that is taboo. All sexual topics. when I was growing up, it was a total shock to see anyone kissing in public. people will stop and stare at you even today in many plces if you do that. but things are changing. in south Africa it just like a western country so people will talk even about homosexuality. but the rest of black countries, if you insist on that they will think something is wrong with you. but younger people in the cities are different. they know about the world and that people are different and especially the west they know it through media. so they are more open and even tolerant towards gay people and many these days do things in public that would have been completely shocking in earlier years but will be resistant to an imposition from outside about homosexuality. that is still too far. first openness to women equality and other modern notions to sink in before you go to homosexuality or anything that seems to be crazy from African assumptions about procreation and the point of life. I even get surprised why we have many celibates in Africa because the African assumption is to look completely down on something like celibacy because the person will have no continuity in the society through his progeny.
but saying Africans bishops “CANNOT” or COULD not (That is even wors than “should not” in my opinion
) they can still help each other in a synod. African bishop may have no need to preach against homosexuality publicly but instead to encourage gay people in confession with love and compassion not emphasizing harshness while western bishop has need to emphasize sinfulness of homosexuality to stop confusion. in Africa, polygamy is very African and easily acceptable to Africans because African mind is all about the large family unit but it still clearly taught and believed to be against the church and Christianity. so young Africans many who value Christianity they stay away from it, it dying. but marriage between blood relatives or things like homosexuality are not a big problem in terms of confusion because they match African traditional morals. this impression that people go around beating gays is not true, they don’t go round beating people until recently only in some places. it western liberals who have incited a violent reaction because it seen as imposition. they think that they want to bring gay marriage that’s the problem but before, the person would be talked about badly like gossip but not killed or anything like that.
P
pepipop
Guest
Of course they can help each other at the synod as they’re all Catholic shepherds who have dedicated their lives to the Catholic Church.I do not understand how anything you wrote is a response to what I wrote. I am in Africa I know African assumptions very well which is why I said earlier that if you went to the more rural African area where western exposure is extremely limited unlike the cities, and asked about a poll on homosexuality, I will be shocked if you don’t get a response coming close to 100% negative response, maybe 99%. To a typical African mind that is nothing short of madness. it is like telling them marriage with a tree or something like that and that is not exaggeration. it also not just African minds. it the default human view in my opinion. only the western countries for only very few decades have created a very strange idea which everyone in the world is wondering what is going on to these people who are supposed to be the leaders in everything and the example we are all following? it a shock to other people looking into the west, not just Africans and muslims. this because in the traditional society it one of those things that seem clearly obviously wrong.
the taboo the bishop is talking about is not about homosexuality. Africans don’t talk publicly about sex even if it normal sex especially around family or elders. that is taboo. All sexual topics. when I was growing up, it was a total shock to see anyone kissing in public. people will stop and stare at you even today in many plces if you do that. but things are changing. in south Africa it just like a western country so people will talk even about homosexuality. but the rest of black countries, if you insist on that they will think something is wrong with you. but younger people in the cities are different. they know about the world and that people are different and especially the west they know it through media. so they are more open and even tolerant towards gay people and many these days do things in public that would have been completely shocking in earlier years but will be resistant to an imposition from outside about homosexuality. that is still too far. first openness to women equality and other modern notions to sink in before you go to homosexuality or anything that seems to be crazy from African assumptions about procreation and the point of life. I even get surprised why we have many celibates in Africa because the African assumption is to look completely down on something like celibacy because the person will have no continuity in the society through his progeny.
but saying Africans bishops “CANNOT” or COULD not (That is even wors than “should not” in my opinion
I don’t really understand what the problem is in relation to C Kasper’s comments. When I said ‘could’ not, I meant in relation to the fact the situation in Africa is light years away from the West in relation to pastoral care for homosexuals in their respective societies.
How ‘could’ someone, living in a society that outlaws homosexuality, advise clergy how to pastor, e.g. a legally married homosexual couple or long term partnership, that now wish to return to the church. As Catholic Cardinals of course, they can offer advice but it will not be a situation they will ‘ever’ have faced in their country and will have no experience.
E.G. advice from a Cardinal living in San Francisco would be a lot more informative, for the Synod group, as he will have day to day experience of such occurrences, for many, many years.
I really do not understand the umbrage against C Kasper’s comments, he does not mean them in a dismissive way, it’s just a matter of fact and the way it is.
To put it another way, the advice from Western Cardinals will be not as informative to African Cardinals, as they do not live in their situation, as homosexuals cannot openly declare themselves or openly ask for pastoral care except in confession, which sacrament all clergy will know how to minster wherever they are in the globe.
The synod is in relation to ‘pastoral care’ and is a think-tank of ideas, which differ between individual country’s societal situations, however a general way forward will be agreed upon as a guiding document for all nations.
O
One_point
Guest
Africans still have people in homosexual lifestyles. the only difference is that the general public leaves them alone while not looking at their behavior as something good but more of a social illness while in west the medi has pushed public into thinking it is normal. that is not light years away. just few decades ago, westen people and Africans would have completely agreed. and the same voices bullying westerns are now in Africa trying to bully Africans using western political and economic muscle. it is presumptuos to think an African bishop cannot talk to a western bishop about pastoring someone living a gay life, Africans pastor Africans in polygamous unions that are supported by African state laws and society. especially when the western bishop is starting dancing with heretical notions approving of those lifestyle in the name of pastoring, the African can tell him a lot how to teach people in difficult situations without insulting them or giving approval. this vast gap you are creating as if Africans come from mars is misrepresentative. African bishops are also pastors, not of saints but of sinners. so a cardinal cannot tell the media that certain Africans “could or should not tell us what to do”. you can defend that all you like but it is a clear mistake.
T
Tigg
Guest
Public figures, surrounded by reporters on a high-profile issue, and knowing full well every word is being devoured by the press, have a much greater obligation to speak clearly and practice much caution with their words. This is quite elementary and I would think that a high-ranking prelate of the Church, who knows the eyes of the world are upon him and this synod, would either exercise more than usual prudence, or refuse the interview altogether, which would be well within his prerogative to do.
O
OraLabora
Guest
You have to nuance this though, by the fact that he was responding in a language in which he has limited proficiency. That can make things come across as sounding awkward. On that basis I am obliged to give the benefit of the doubt.
I’ve seen with a mix of amusement and horror what havoc language issues can wreak. At a Benedictine Oblates’s congress in Rome in 2009, an speaker said (in French) that we “venerate” the Virgin Mary, which is correct. I was listening to him in French as that’s my native language. But the simultaneous interpreter rendered it as “worship” the Virgin Mary in English. About a third of the 200+ participants were English and there was a huge outcry of scandal.
The poor speaker was obliged to issue a correction during lunch in the refectory. He had never said “worship” (“adorer” in French), he said “venerate” (vénérer in French).
I would hope he issues a statement in his native German that is then correctly translated rather than relying on his poor English language skills to try to guess what he was really thinking.
The charitable thing is to assume that those poor language skills are at the heart of the controversy.
C
clem456
Guest
In any event, handwringing, doubting, parsing, give the impression that Catholics are an uneasy and distrustful bunch who proclaim good faith and trust in God’s providence and each other… but don’t practice it.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
Elizabeth Scalia has nicely summarized the whole ordeal:
patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2014/10/16/pentin-on-kasper-i-did-tape-the-talk-didnt-mention-zenit/
She says, and I’m inclined to agree, that we should probably cut Cardinal Kasper a little slack here. He probably just didn’t articulate his point as clearly as he could have. I know I’ve been there many times.
I mean, do any of us really think he’s racist against Africans? Really? I disagree with his proposal regarding Communion for certain divorced and remarried couples, but I sure don’t think he’s racist. It seems to me he was trying to make the point that the situation in Africa is different than in the West. And it is.
patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2014/10/16/pentin-on-kasper-i-did-tape-the-talk-didnt-mention-zenit/
She says, and I’m inclined to agree, that we should probably cut Cardinal Kasper a little slack here. He probably just didn’t articulate his point as clearly as he could have. I know I’ve been there many times.
I mean, do any of us really think he’s racist against Africans? Really? I disagree with his proposal regarding Communion for certain divorced and remarried couples, but I sure don’t think he’s racist. It seems to me he was trying to make the point that the situation in Africa is different than in the West. And it is.
M
McCall1981
Guest
Here’s link to a video interview with Edward Pentin where he addresses Card Kasper’s interview:
southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2014/10/i-would-say-that-god-surprised-pope-and.html
southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2014/10/i-would-say-that-god-surprised-pope-and.html
- Status