Statues: Biblical or Unbiblical?

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Brother Pablope, im not expert in all the catholic ways. but i know the concept of pergatory, where men have to suffer to make them ready for heaven. This implies they need more than the cross for salvation. Is this not true? The simple fact is,…there is no pergatory, but its the thought that counts.
 
brother Tantum, i mentioned no particular prayer you do, i just quoted scripture. Jesus said…do not vain repititions as the heathen do. I seem to get flack for just quoting the bible.
Pablope, personally i have no problem with works of art depicting certain events from the bible. But i firmly believe god doesnt like them because he want people to worship him in spirit. God did want us to have a small pic of the throne room in his temple.The cherubs and what not. he didnt want people to bow to those images. Blessed are they who have not seen but believe. Some religions are all about things you can see. I believe that hinders your relation with an invisible god.
 
Kim, why do you care what Catholics believe when you yourself are not even a believer according to your stated religion which says “none”…? Are you actually a Born Again Christian, or are you truly w/ out Christian Faith… Be honest.
 
Is the depiction of baby Jesus in Marys arm a graven image? You mean the statues? Im affraid they are. They didnt fall from the sky. Some man fashioned them out of rock or cement or what have you. Listen, if i was god, i wouldnt be down on statues so hard. But god seems to hate the use of statues for religious purposes. Dont jump on my case about it.I can see where bowing to them would rub me the wrong way if i was God.
 
ive talked to a few catholics who say they have never bowed befor a statue.
And as we’ve been telling you, Exodus 20:4-6 is not a command against bowing; it is a commandment the worship of these graven images. If you bow to a graven image, in a way that you’re worshiping the image, then you’re breaching the First Commandment (i.e. thou shalt not commit idolatry).

Simply bowing to a statue out of respect and/or remembrance of the person’s life does not break the First Commandment, because you are not worshiping the statue by bowing to it.
Its just a couple though, i mean like 2 out of hundreds.
And you can read the minds of these “hundreds of Catholics” that are supposed worshiping statues as if they were gods?
Ive saved lots of pics off the internet of the faithful on their knees befor the mary statue, and sundry others.
Really? This is your argument?

Ludicrous, I say. 🤷 :rolleyes:

I too can find an equal amount of pictures on Google Images of Protestants, such as yourself, kneeling before something other than Jesus. One of them, in fact, makes it look like the Protestants are worshiping a box of Kleenex.

Where, exactly, is your argument now, friend?
Mary seems to be the fave.
Catholics generally have a strong devotion to Mary, and why not? She was specifically chosen, above all women, to carry our Lord and Savior within her. She was spared from the stain of Original Sin from the moment of her conception, remained a virgin her entire life, and was later died and was assumed into Heaven.

Heck, even Scripture supports given Mary honor. What exactly do you make of the “every generation shall call me [Mary] blessed” verse?

And even with the hyperdulia given to Mary, we still give a much higher form of honor to Jesus Christ. In fact, the latria we give God is so much higher than hyperdulia or dulia, that the latter two cannot even begin to be compared. 😃
It seems Christ sacrifice isnt good enough.
Pray tell, how do indulgences make Christ’s sacrifice worthless?
To me its my salvation.
You need to study up on Catholic theology. Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient. Christ’s utterance of “it is finished,” however, does not mean that there is nothing we need to do as Christians. If you assert otherwise, then please cite the scriptural references that support your position.
The finished work of Christ.
What the Catholic teaches as far as “works” goes does not “add to the finished work of Christ.” To say otherwise is to be ignorant of Catholic teachings.
To others, there still needs work to be added.
Then are we commanded, by Christ no less, to do certain works?

Here are just a few of many:

“If you love me, then keep my commandments.”

“Take up your cross and follow me.”

“Eat my Body and drink my Blood.”

“He who does the will of the Father will be saved.”

“You helped the lesser of your brethren. What you do for the lesser, you also do for me.”

Christ reiterated that we have to follow the Ten Commandments.

The Beatitudes are characteristics that we are told we need to exhibit.
What a horrible thing to lay on people. And to little children too!
It’s a horrible thing to urge people to do what Christ Himself commanded us to do? Your logic has just blown my mind.
 
brother Tepo, when i was 17 there was a poster in my hi school that said…Free music, free food, fre love. So i went, hoping to catch a girl. To my horror, it was one of those Jesus festivals. Well i was there, long bus ride, no turning back. SO later a girl took me aside and made me pray to have Jesus come into my heart. I believed what she said about jesus being alive and wanting to be lord of my life. I was glad to get out and be on the bus back home. But a funny thing happened on the bus. All of a sudden i saw the world different. Billboards and storefronts all looked vain and vanity. I got home and started rambling out bible quotes and the verse, even though i never cracked a bible. my parents got scared.I went to take the bible off the bookshelf and they wouldnt let me. So the next morning i got it and the words were life to me. i could see jesus all over it. Somehow, i knew Jesus, without having seen him i knew him. Reading just filled in the blanks of what he did here while on earth. He let me know that we were togeather by granting favors i would ask.He leaves no doubt. In other words, i was given a new spirit.Its impossible to explain.
 
Some man fashioned them out of rock or cement or what have you.
Wait, what? And what makes you think all things made out of rock or cement are “graven images”? Castles are generally made out of rock, so does that make them graven images too?

Where does Scripture give the definition of a graven image as “a man-made creation, fashioned out of rock or cement”?

Again, with your literalist interpretation of Exodus 20:4-6, we cannot have any form of artwork period. The commandment specifically states, according to a literalist interpretation, that “you shall not make for thyself a graven image of any thing that is in heaven above, on the earth, or the below the earth.”

Where, exactly, does God state that “graven images” have to be made out of rock or cement? He doesn’t; He, instead, makes a very broad statement which says nothing in Heaven, on Earth, or whatever is below the Earth.

So, by the logic of your literal interpretation, I am breaking the First Commandment by having a picture of my dog, Felix. My friend is equally breaking this Commandment by having a hand-drawn portrait of her mother. After all, these are things, fashioned by man’s hand, depicting things that are on Earth. 🤷
But god seems to hate the use of statues for religious purposes.
Then He wouldn’t commanded for the bronze serpent to be made. Simple as that. 😉
I can see where bowing to them would rub me the wrong way if i was God.
And you can see into God’s mind?
 
“If you love me, then keep my commandments.”

“Take up your cross and follow me.”

“Eat my Body and drink my Blood.”

“He who does the will of the Father will be saved.”

“You helped the lesser of your brethren. What you do for the lesser, you also do for me.”

Christ reiterated that we have to follow the Ten Commandments.

The Beatitudes are characteristics that we are told we need to exhibit.

Brother Phenix, do any of those actions save you? If you break a commandment are you barred from heaven? There is one requirement for salvation. Do you happen to know what that is? To the first or anyone who can tell me, i will shower with accolades.
 
Maybe the Amish have the right idea: No photoes, no statues, and Amish dolls do not have faces. God told the Isrealites not to worship idols and then told them to put two Charabim on the lid of the Ark to be put in the Holy of Holies. :D:eek::bigyikes::knight1:
 
Brother Pheonix, the bronze serpent wasnt used for worship. Uhh, and its the 2nd command you break when bowing to images. Not the first. Well, if you break one youve broken them all. I am the leader of breaking the commandments
 
“If you love me, then keep my commandments.”

“Take up your cross and follow me.”

“Eat my Body and drink my Blood.”

“He who does the will of the Father will be saved.”

“You helped the lesser of your brethren. What you do for the lesser, you also do for me.”

Christ reiterated that we have to follow the Ten Commandments.

The Beatitudes are characteristics that we are told we need to exhibit.

Brother Phenix, do any of those actions save you? If you break a commandment are you barred from heaven? There is one requirement for salvation. Do you happen to know what that is? To the first or anyone who can tell me, i will shower with accolades.
Faith in Him. …and now – the accolades please!!!
 
thats right Tabycat. Say, were the people able to see the 2 cherubs on the ark? Did they file by it and kiss it? No, cause they would die if they looked at it. You might have to find another reason why its a beautiful thing to bow befor graven images. My fave is that i have a pic of mom in my wallet is why the 2nd command is negated.
 
Brother Phenix, do any of those actions save you?
According to Jesus, these actions do have an effect on one’s salvation.

For example…
  1. Jesus tells us in John 6 that if we do not eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, then we do not have life within us. Pray tell, how can we be saved if we “do not have life within us”?
  2. One of the Beatitudes is “blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.”
“Suffering for persecution for the sake of justice” is most certainly an action. Unless, of course, you can prove the contrary.
  1. “Not every who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved, but he who does the will of my Father will see Heaven.”
Pretty straight-forward, if you ask me. 🤷 Simply proclaiming to have faith in Christ isn’t enough; we need to have works of love too.
  1. James bluntly tells us “faith without works is dead.” So you cannot have works without faith, and be saved. You likewise cannot have faith without works, and be saved. Faith and works are a package deal when it comes to salvation.
  2. The Parable of the Sheep and Goats tell us that the sheep were “saved” because they helped the lesser of their brethren. The goats, on the other hand, were “condemned” because they failed to help the lesser of their brethren. Both sides firmly believed in Christ, yet Christ does not commend or chastise either party for their faith.
If you break a commandment are you barred from heaven?
St. Paul tells us that if we commit certain sins, such a murder or adultery, then we will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

So yes, breaking a Commandment can certainly jeopardize one’s salvation.
There is one requirement for salvation.
It’s grace working through faith and love (i.e. our charitable works).
Do you happen to know what that is?
Again, it’s grace working through faith and works. Simply “believing in Christ” does not save one. If simply “believing” in Christ saved someone, then why aren’t the demons saved? Scripture states that they believe in Christ and tremble, after all. 🤷
To the first or anyone who can tell me, i will shower with accolades.
Really?! I’m waiting, friend. 😃
 
Brother Pheonix, the bronze serpent wasnt used for worship.
But the commandment states “you shall not MAKE for thyself a graven image,” friend. According to your literalist interpretation of Scripture, God commanded the bronze serpent to be made is a breach of this commandment. 🤷

However, a further reading of Exodus 20:4-6 tells us that graven images are fine so long as we don’t worship them as gods. What a relief! 😃

But in any case, you’re exactly right! 👍 The bronze serpent wasn’t used for worship. It was, however, used for a religious purpose. And, as we all know, not all religious practices necessitate “worship.”

Catholics use religious images… well, religiously. There is, however, no worship attached to this religious use. 😃 And that means they’re A-OK! 👍
Uhh, and its the 2nd command you break when bowing to images.
Catholicism and Lutheranism combines Exodus 20:2-6 as the First Commandment. Why? Because those verses deal with the exact same thing: idolatry.

Pray tell, if you put something before God, what are you doing? You’re committing idolatry.

Likewise, if you worship something other than God, what are you doing? You’re committing idolatry.

Is the Catholic/Lutheran numbering wrong? No, it is not. In fact, there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments! Which one is correct: the Jewish, the Catholic/Lutheran, or the Orthodox/Protestant one?

The reason there are three different verses of the Ten Commandments is because there are more than ten imperative statements in Exodus 20, and the original version would not have had verse numbers. Further, God does not state anything like “this is the FIRST Commandment” or “this is the SIXTH Commandment.”

So… do you have any scriptural evidence to support that Exodus 20:4-6 is, in fact, THE Second Commandment?
Not the first.
Like I said, Exodus 20:4-6 is part of the First Commandment in the Catholic and Lutheran numbering. And, unless you can provide evidence to suggest the contrary, our numbering is just as valid as your numbering.
 
Oww, Pheonix was close but stopped short. Uhh, cancel the ticker tape parade. Brother Phoenix, thats a pretty broad knife you cut with. As long as we dont worship the statue as a god its OK to make them and bow befor them. Weve all come short the glory of god. Bowing to statues isnt going to send you to hell. It doesnt help your walk with the lord, but we all do things that arent right. Look at me. I am chief amongst sinners.
 
Brother Pablope, im not expert in all the catholic ways. but i know the concept of pergatory, where men have to suffer to make them ready for heaven. This implies they need more than the cross for salvation. Is this not true? The simple fact is,…there is no pergatory, but its the thought that counts.
Kimberly…Then you have a misconception of Purgatory…it is not to make suffer…it is to purge our sinful nature before we get to Heaven.

Have you not read of this passage from Revelations…21: 27…Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life

So let me ask you…if you die this very minute…can you say for sure you are without sin?

Have you purged the sins off your soul?

This article details the biblical basis and the Jewish roots of purgatory…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html
 
brother Tantum, i mentioned no particular prayer you do, i just quoted scripture. Jesus said…do not vain repititions as the heathen do. I seem to get flack for just quoting the bible.
Pablope, personally i have no problem with works of art depicting certain events from the bible. But i firmly believe god doesnt like them because he want people to worship him in spirit. God did want us to have a small pic of the throne room in his temple.The cherubs and what not. he didnt want people to bow to those images. Blessed are they who have not seen but believe. Some religions are all about things you can see. I believe that hinders your relation with an invisible god.
Sister. . .I quoted the Bible too. Pslam 118 is full of repetition. Christ Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane prayed THREE times using the SAME words. This is Scripture.

Why when I quote the Bible do you not address it?

You seem to be under two misapprehensions:

That people are 'bowing to graven images" as though ‘bowing’ is understood to be worship.

It is not. I have given you several examples which apparently you have accepted which show that ‘bowing’ to someone or something is NOT worship.

The second misapprehension you have is that a statue **in, and only in, a Catholic Church or a Catholic home, **is a graven image.

They are not.

Other statues you do not conceive as graven images (EVEN ‘religious statues’ or pictures in a museum).

And no Catholic statue is worshipped. Ever.

Look, we Catholics know what we are doing.

IF we worshipped statues we would SAY so. We do **plenty of other things that Protestants object to, and we say why we do so. . things like accepting the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist which is VERY Scriptural (John 6), things like having a ‘head’ of the Church in the Pope (Matthew 18), things like Purgatory (Maccabees, Revelation, St. Paul). . . So if we DID worship statues we would come right out and say so. **

It is very insulting for non-Catholics to come here and accuse us of either being dishonest by worshipping statues and then claiming we don’t, or of being so STUPID that we do it without knowing, or that we are so IGNORANT of Christian teaching that we are ignoring Scripture and Sacred Tradition, NEITHER of which states that a statue of a saint, or even of Christ Himself, IS that person, or is an ‘idol’ representing a ‘plaster god’.

BTW, are you also going to our ORTHODOX friends, who use ICONS, and accusing them of worship?

Isn’t it strange that the two oldest CHRISTIAN groups, Catholic and Orthodox, have managed to use statues/icons despite being the ones who came up with the entire canon of Scripture?

Isn’t it strange that even many PROTESTANT groups such as Episcopalians have statues (BTW, are you also going to our Episcopalian friends and accusing them of idol worship? )
 
You have all heard this phrase…personal relation with Jesus. Its true. You can have one. During judgment, the ones god sends to hell, he says…Depart from me, i never knew you. Even though you wear the biggest cross around your neck, attend church every day, if you dont know Jesus personally, you have to depart from him at judgment. He doesnt say, Ok, youve done the most penance, come on in. He doesnt say, you didnt do the rosary enough, depart from me. he says" I never knew you, depart from me. One simple criteria.
 
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