Statues: Biblical or Unbiblical?

[Cruxis117]

This is a thread to continue a debate that started on another Catholic website. My argument is that we can bow to statues in veneration of what those statues represent, because of such passages as Exodus 25 and Ezekiel (with the vision of the New Temple). User kimberly87 should respond shortly.

 

[PJM]

=Cruxis117;9866383]This is a thread to continue a debate that started on another Catholic website. My argument is that we can bow to statues in veneration of what those statues represent, because of such passages as Exodus 25 and Ezekiel (with the vision of the New Temple). User kimberly87 should respond shortly.

My vote is that it’s BIBLICAL

2Kgs.17: 12, 15 “and they served idols, of which the LORD had said to them, “You shall not do this.” They despised his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and the warnings which he gave them. They went after false idols, and became false, and they followed the nations that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had commanded them that they should not do like them

BUT WHAT PRECISELY DOES THE LORD MEAN?

NOTE: in these to example God Himself commanded of Moses to make “graven images.” The Critical understanding is the PURPOSE of them. To lead One To and towards God as do Mary and the Saints; OR to compete WITH God. [the Incorrect Protestant understanding of what we Catholics actually do]

1 Chr. 18 “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD”

Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

 

[roveau]

There are other examples of representational statuary in the Old Testament.
The two cherubim in the sanctuary as noted above (see I Kings 6.23, 8.6), carved figures of cherubim, palm trees and open flowers on the walls of the inner and outer rooms, (I Kings 6.29, 35 etc). Cast pomegranates (I Kings 7. 18). A great basin resting on twelve oxen (I Kings 7.25). Panel stands with (low relief?) depictions of lions, oxen and cherubim (I Kings 7.29, 36).

The Bible says we are not to bow down and worship statues.

 

[tabycat]

Biblical. God commaned angles to be on the lid of the Ark to hover over the Mercy Seat. :knight1::harp::heaven:

 

[thistle]

This is a thread to continue a debate that started on another Catholic website. My argument is that we can bow to statues in veneration of what those statues represent, because of such passages as Exodus 25 and Ezekiel (with the vision of the New Temple). User kimberly87 should respond shortly.

catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues#.UHISkZjMi80

 

[kimberly87]

Hello, and thanks for this talk. The commandment says not to bow. God is not concerned with your motive. OK, so god had heavenly images in his house. Thats nice.I hope no one bowed to them or put gold crowns on their heads or kissed them. i see the tried and true excuses are still the mainstay of those who like to bow down befor images. The cherubs on the Ark and the bronze serpent. Here is some food for thought : did the people get to file by the Ark and gaze at it and kiss it and lift up the young ones to kiss them too? Not a chance. No one saw it but a high priest, and that was only once in a while.
The other great reason for bowing befor graven images: the poor old bronze serpent. People who use that in arguments either A: dont know the rest of the story, or B: dont want to mention that other half of the story. Hezekiah, did what was right in the eyes of the lord…II Kings chp 18. He smashed all the images the hebrews loved to bow to and he broke in pieces the bronze serpent, because those idolatrous hebrews were venerating the serpent, and even gave it a name. It seems that god hates using objects for worshiping him. I think its Deut chp 4 where god say he showed the house of israel no form when he came down on the mount. He knew they would make images of him, and he doesnt want that.So next time you use the serpent as the wonderful reason you bow to hundreds of statues, also relate that god had Hezekiah get rid of it because it was being venerated. Thanks for your time

 

[patrick457]

The way this is traditionally formulated, in the OT the Israelites were forbidden to make images because at that time, God had not yet revealed Himself in a tangible form that could be artistically portrayed. But ever since Jesus, “the (eikon) of the invisible God,” was incarnated as a man (and thus visible and tangible), it became permissible to make images (eikona).

 

[Dubay]

Beware of false Gods.,

 

[kimberly87]

Hi friend. Ok, so now it OK to make images for worship, or used in worship. Could you show me where this is said the the new test, or old if you need. Thanks

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Beware of false Gods.,

Just don’t fall into the iconoclastic trap (it was declared a heresy back around the 8th century or so) that would assume that statues are gods.

One wonders if all those people who walk past the Lincoln Memorial and bow their heads in respect are worshipping the ‘false god Lincoln’. . .

I doubt it.

I wonder if all the people who bow their heads when the casket of their parent, spouse, or friend (with the picture of friend on top) are worshipping that picture or casket or person as God. . .

I doubt it.

I wonder if all the people who bow their heads when their friend from Japan comes over are worshipping their friend as God. I doubt it. Or if the person who bows when finishing a performance on stage is worshipping the audience as god. I doubt it.

Above all, I wonder if all the people who bow their heads at a statue of Mary, or St. Joseph, or St. Francis, etc., are worshipping those STATUES or those people as God.

I doubt it.

Apparently, God doubts it as well. . .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi friend. Ok, so now it OK to make images for worship, or used in worship. Could you show me where this is said the the new test, or old if you need. Thanks

Well, Kimberly, the thing is, statues are not worshipped. So there you go.

Is the statue of Lincoln made to be worshipped? No. It represents a great leader, not a god.

Is the statue of say your hometown mayor made to be worshipped? No. it represents a leader.

How about the statue your child made in art class of a female head? Did the child make it to be worshipped? No. He made it as a representation of a woman, for esthetic pleasure, and hopefully a decent grade.

So, is the statue of Mary in a church worshipped as a god? No. Does the Mass said in Church speak of “in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Mary”? Does the priest offer the bread and wine, Body and Blood, of MARY? Do the people speak of her as creator, redeemer, or sanctifier?

No.

No worship, no problem with statues. . .or pictures. . .or stained glass windows. . .

None of them being god. . .

 

[Pheonix]

Hello, and thanks for this talk.

First off, welcome to the Catholic Answers forum! I hope you enjoy whatever time you choose to spend here.

The commandment says not to bow.

Hold the phone there, friend. If you’re going to interpret the commandment that literally, then you have to take the whole commandment into account.

Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven image, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)

According to this commandment, we are not to images of anything. Period. This means that if we have pictures of our mother, our father, our husband, our wife, our children, our best friend, our dog, or our cat, then we are breaching this commandment.

The point of the commandment is worshiping these said graven images. Why did God get angry with the Israelites in the golden calf episode?

He didn’t get mad at them because they simply had a golden calf statue. No, my friend, He got mad at them because they were worshiping the golden calf as if it was God.

That’s a pretty big difference, if you ask me. I recommend looking up the etymology of the word “worship.”

God is not concerned with your motive.

And what evidence do you have to support such a unsubstantiated assertion? Are you God’s prophet?

OK, so god had heavenly images in his house.

Which clearly refutes the idea that images, icons, or statues are forbidden. God practices what He preaches. Therefore, if He really meant no religious images period, then He would not have commanded religious images to be made. It’s that simple.

Thats nice.

Nice puerile, sarcastic attitude.

I hope no one bowed to them

Bowing does not necessarily equate to worship, now does it? People bow to each other in Japan as a greeting gesture. Therefore, if I ever meet Shigeru Miyamoto from Nintendo, then I will bow to him out of respect for his country’s customs. According to your logic, however, it means I am worshiping Miyamoto as if he was God.

Ludicrous, I say.

And besides, don’t you bow and/or courtesy to a king or queen when you enter into his or her presence? Does that mean you’re worshiping the king or queen as if he or she were a god? Absolutely not.

or put gold crowns on their heads or kissed them.

Please provide a strong, logical, coherent argument as to how putting a gold crown on something or kissing something some how equals worship.

i see the tried and true excuses are still the mainstay of those who like to bow down befor images. The cherubs on the Ark and the bronze serpent. Here is some food for thought : did the people get to file by the Ark and gaze at it and kiss it and lift up the young ones to kiss them too? Not a chance. No one saw it but a high priest, and that was only once in a while.

The other great reason for bowing befor graven images: the poor old bronze serpent.

Amen! The bronze serpent is perhaps the best support for the religious use of icons.

And again, if God really meant no statues period when He gave Moses that commandment in Exodus 20:4-6, then He simply wouldn’t have Moses to make a statue. Period.

You simply can’t get around this argument, friend. Either God practices what He preaches, or He does not. Which is it?

People who use that in arguments either A: dont know the rest of the story,

I know the story quite well, and don’t see how it could actually be used as a deterrent to using religious icons… well, religiously.

or B: dont want to mention that other half of the story. Hezekiah, did what was right in the eyes of the lord…II Kings chp 18. He smashed all the images the hebrews loved to bow to and he broke in pieces the bronze serpent, because those idolatrous hebrews were venerating the serpent, and even gave it a name.

I find it quite ironic how you use this part of the bronze serpent story to refute bowing to statues. Why? Because it actually refutes your assertion that statues cannot be used religiously.

Look at the part in bold. The reason why Hezekiah destroyed the bronze serpent was because the Hebrews began to worship it as if it was God. He didn’t destroy it simply because they had the bronze serpent.

It seems that god hates using objects for worshiping him.

If this was true, then God wouldn’t have commanded the religious use of icons.

God is, however, against making images into a god that you worship instead of Him. This idea is clearly showcased in all the scriptural passages you bring up. You, however, have no Scripture to support the idea that we cannot use religious icons in a pious manner.

 

[kimberly87]

Hello phonex. I hate to be a stick in the mud, but the hebrews didnt worship the serpent as god. I dont know where you got that.Plus, i know the more sophisticated humans arent worshiping the statue. But the more backwards people in south america take the idols seriously. The priests down there dont discourage it.
The commandment says not to make a graven image nor bow to it.In your haste to justify this practice, you used bowing to a human as a reason its OK to bow to stone idols. You are going to have to restructure your argument. Humans arent made by human hands,…they arent graven images, neither is a pic of your mom a graven image. Its a pic of a human.Bowing to humans as a form of greeting is a sad way to justify bowing to cement. and wood.Hey, i didnt write the 10 commandments, i just try to follow them. If thats your thing, bowing to graven images, dont let me stop you.If you feel it OK, well, you are entitled to act your conscience. I was invited here by a new friend. Are you that person?

 

[TEPO]

Unbiblical… Err, maybe biblical…?

Anyways, I don’t think that there are any religions left who actually worship physical objects, especially statues. To worship a statue as God, you would have to believe that the statue first of all can see and hear you. You would also have to believe that the statue has powers…

Closest thing to that that I can think of would be a voodoo doll, but even there the doll is lacking its “god” status, so that’s not “worship” either.

 

[Pheonix]

I hate to be a stick in the mud,

And I hate to be a stick in the mud, but your arguments are seriously unconvincing.

but the hebrews didnt worship the serpent as god. I dont know where you got that.

They weren’t worshiping the bronze serpent? Really? Scripture seems to say the opposite, my friend.

He destroyed the high places, and broke the statues in pieces, and cut down the groves, and broke the brazen serpent, which Moses had made: for till that time the children of Israel burnt incense to it: and he called its name Nohestan. (2 Kings 18:4)

So the Israelites were burning incense to the bronze serpent and even gave it a pagan name. That’s not worship… how?

Plus, i know the more sophisticated humans arent worshiping the statue. But the more backwards people in south america take the idols seriously. The priests down there dont discourage it.

You have to provide evidence that these “backwards people” from South America are actually Christians. If they are not, then you cannot blame them for what they do. After all, for all you know, they do not know God through no fault of their own.

The commandment says not to make a graven image nor bow to it.

You need to read more of the commandment. God clarifies what He means by this “bowing to a graven image.” He states “you shall not worship them.” As long as we are not worshiping a graven image as if it were God, and bowing =/= imply worship, then the religious use of statues is fine.

In your haste to justify this practice, you used bowing to a human as a reason its OK to bow to stone idols.

No, my friend, my reply to you was not “in haste.” My argument was is logical, strong, and coherent, as well as having scriptural support.

It is you who, in haste, have completely ignored my argument because you cannot refute it.

You are going to have to restructure your argument.

No, I don’t. Not until you properly refute my argument, at least.

Humans arent made by human hands,…

Irrelevant. If bowing to a statue counts as worship, then so too does bowing to a human.

they arent graven images, neither is a pic of your mom a graven image.

And what evidence to do have to support this? Pictures are created images, so they most certainly fit into the “don’t make for thyself a graven image” commandment.

Its a pic of a human.

And religious icons are generally of other, pious individuals. What’s your point?

Bowing to humans as a form of greeting is a sad way to justify bowing to cement. and wood.

Bowing is a sign of respect. How, then, is it wrong to bow to a statue of say, Blessed John Paul II, one of the most pious men to have lived in remembrance of how he lived his life?

Hey, i didnt write the 10 commandments, i just try to follow them.

And bowing down to graven images is not the point of the commandment. It’s worshiping those graven images as if they were God Himself.

I was invited here by a new friend. Are you that person?

I was not. Catholic Answers is the only online religious forum I visit.

 

[Wiseowl]

Just don’t fall into the iconoclastic trap (it was declared a h****eresy back around the 8th century or so) that would assume that statues are gods.

One wonders if all those people who walk past the Lincoln Memorial and bow their heads in respect are worshipping the ‘false god Lincoln’. . .

I doubt it.

I wonder if all the people who bow their heads when the casket of their parent, spouse, or friend (with the picture of friend on top) are worshipping that picture or casket or person as God. . .

I doubt it.

I wonder if all the people who bow their heads when their friend from Japan comes over are worshipping their friend as God. I doubt it. Or if the person who bows when finishing a performance on stage is worshipping the audience as god. I doubt it.

Above all, I wonder if all the people who bow their heads at a statue of Mary, or St. Joseph, or St. Francis, etc., are worshipping those STATUES or those people as God.

I doubt it.

Apparently, God doubts it as well. . .

I think most not all of what you described can and are worshipped , so being careful and cognizant of this is very smart.

 

[kimberly87]

Thanks for the response. I have to clarify this all the time, and i forgot to this time. If you look at everything i have written, you wont once find that i accused anyone of worshiping a graven image. Not once. I know you guys dont worship the statue. But your retorts are all the same. You all say i accuse you of worshiping the statue. I came here to debate a person i met in another site . He was going to show me why its OK to bow to staues and images. I use the word bow, you you see it as worship.Youre not wrong, cause it is a form of worship. I know you all have seen this befor and have dealt with this. The commandment says not to make them nor bow thyself down to them. Thats pretty clear. Serving them is stuff like dressing them in clothes, putting necklaces and crowns of gold on them. Burning incense in front of them. Sound familiar? The Israelites were burning incense to the bronze serpent, so god had Hezekiah get rid of it. Nowhere in the bible are gods people instructed to bow to images. Another thing Hezekiah did was smash all the graven images in Israel.Its funny, ive been accused of interpreting the bible wrongly. I just quote it and believe it. It says dont bow to images, i dont bow to them. Wouldnt the verbal acrobatics used to justify bowing to them be considered interpreting them? We have seen this befor. Who was it who said…Yea, hath god said not to eat this fruit,but its OK because of this reason and that reason. Yea, god hath said not to make or bow to graven images, but its Ok because of this reason and the other reason.

 

[Wiseowl]

Praying, kneeling, incense , repeated prayer, poems, songs, adoration.

Is that worship? It’s really up to interpretation.

 

[kimberly87]

I wonder if all the people who bow their heads when their friend from Japan comes over are worshipping their friend as God. I doubt it. Or if the person who bows when finishing a performance on stage is worshipping the audience as god. I doubt it.

Above all, I wonder if all the people who bow their heads at a statue of Mary, or St. Joseph, or St. Francis, etc., are worshipping those STATUES or those people as God.

I doubt it.

Therefor its a most wonderful thing to bow to statues and images, even kiss the foot of Jupiter in the Vatican.Ive seen it, The faithful have kissed off the shoestrings.I dont worship my piano as god, so that means its a great thing to bow to the thousands of graven images provided by the church. Hey, i didnt write the commandments. Its not me who you have to convince breaking the 2nd command is a wonderful thing.But i do believe that using material things to aid in worship keeps you from a relation with the invisible god.

 

[kimberly87]

Praying, kneeling, incense , repeated prayer, poems, songs, adoration.

Is that worship? It’s really up to interpretation.

I guess those are OK, except that i heard that repeated prayer is vain.Im not accusing anyone , in here, of worshiping statues. Im here to find out why people make and bow to the work of their hands and why the practice is supported by a major “christian” religion.