Stay Catholic or change religions?

[CMatt25]

interesting carv how everyone seems to be misinterperting what you are trying to say… A lot of misunderstandings…maybe you should mean what you say and stop backpeddeling!

not everyone

 

[DebCat129]

not everyone

quite a few people, i think i’ve seen you have to re-explain you position at least 20 or 30 times!

 

[CARV]

Look I am basing my observations on your own words, and they are clear…I can do the same and scoff at all those who attend church on Sunday, but live secular lives the rest of the week, and who believe contrary to Church teachings…But then I would get caught up in that… and I have a lot to work on within myself. I am a sinner I don’t deny that, but I’m not going to give credence to what my fellow parishioner is or is not doing…because I can have it all wrong, they may be struggling. So again I say…work on your own wholeness and be prayerful.

And I said instead of telling him or her to find a new church, (which IS pushing him or her off the cliff), You should not advise them to leave but to seek out a priest’s guidance…you may not realize it, but you will be called to account for anyone you cause to leave…you can twist what I say, but you cant fool the almighty…

You don’t seem to relaize that she already has left…over 10 years ago. I had nothing to do with that. She is asking whether she start attending again, after 10 years, without actually believing, or even showing a desire to believe, what Rome teaches. The common sense answer is that she would probably be more at home at another church. I understand that you have some deeply held convictions about Roman Catholicism but please try to understand many Christians genuinely disgree with Rome’s assertions and that it is less than polite to threaten them with God’s judgement for doing so.

 

[CARV]

interesting carv how everyone seems to be misinterperting what you are trying to say… A lot of misunderstandings…maybe you should mean what you say and stop backpeddeling!

She has alraedy apologized for the misunderstnding. Keep reading.

 

[CMatt25]

quite a few people, i think i’ve seen you have to re-explain you position at least 20 or 30 times!

I’m not sure what position of mine you are talking about. But you’re right I know if you’re talking about how I have had to explain who is a Catholic in the eyes of the Church a lot of times to supposedly some of the most devout, all knowing, purist, faithful Catholics on the planet! :yup: Far more though than 20 or 30 times it seems. Sometimes it seems 20 or 30 times to the same person! :yup:

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

CMAT25

You are assuming that one missed Mass means you are going to hell? Missing Mass just pulls you away from God…something I wouldn’t want for anyone.

I hope you don’t mind that I’m going to put you on my prayer list to more clearly see the fullness of Christ and His Bride… (I just want everyone to be in love like I am).

 

[guanophore]

To proselytize someone means to try to convince them to adopt your beliefs. I have done nothing of the sort.

Well, we see it differently. Perhaps you don’t realize that your posts communicate a proselyzing message, but they do.

I don't care whether or not the OP chooses to be catholic or episcopalian or anything else. But her views are already clearly protestant, and I didn't say a word to convince her of the beliefs she already held before she got here. I merely suggested that she go to a church that conforms to what she believes. I never once suggested she go to my church, just not yours (because she clearly doesn't believe the Catholic faith). That isn't proselytizing. That was just good advise.

And what about your comment to CMatt “you are always welcome”? Your posts are saying “your beliefs place you over here, let me hold the door open for you”.

Besides, to encourage someone who identifies as Catholic not to go to Catholic Church is clearly an effort to draw them away, rather than to encourage them to examine and explore why it is they identify as Catholic and yet, do not have Catholic faith.

You also posted lies and misinformation about the Catholic faith in your encouragement for her to go elsewhere. This is placing a stumbling block. If she chooses to leave, let it be because she has examined the real Teaching of the Church, and chosen to reject it. Not leave on the basis of lies and misinformation! What terrible spiritual guidance to give to anyone. It is as far from “good advise” as one can get.

This is a non-catholic forum where we compare and contrast beliefs. I don't believe I've crossed any lines but I feel I've worn out my welcome.

Yes, it is a place to compare and contrast. It is for discussion, and your opinion does have a place here. Of course you are welcome! CAF was created for people like you. How else are you to find out that what you have been given to believe about Catholicism is false?

 

[CARV]

Well, we see it differently. Perhaps you don’t realize that your posts communicate a proselyzing message, but they do.

And what about your comment to CMatt “you are always welcome”? Your posts are saying “your beliefs place you over here, let me hold the door open for you”.

Besides, to encourage someone who identifies as Catholic not to go to Catholic Church is clearly an effort to draw them away, rather than to encourage them to examine and explore why it is they identify as Catholic and yet, do not have Catholic faith.

You also posted lies and misinformation about the Catholic faith in your encouragement for her to go elsewhere. This is placing a stumbling block. If she chooses to leave, let it be because she has examined the real Teaching of the Church, and chosen to reject it. Not leave on the basis of lies and misinformation! What terrible spiritual guidance to give to anyone. It is as far from “good advise” as one can get.

Yes, it is a place to compare and contrast. It is for discussion, and your opinion does have a place here. Of course you are welcome! CAF was created for people like you. How else are you to find out that what you have been given to believe about Catholicism is false?

What lies did I post about catholicism? I treated the OP like an adult giving her what seemed to be common sense advise. Many treated her like a child who did know what she was talking about and just assumed she was ignorant. jmcrae even went as afar as to assert that it was “physically impossible” to have an informed conscience and disagree with catholicism. Catholics would do well not that habitually look down on others who sincerely disagree with them by labelling them ignorant. Perhaps many of us non-catholics understand catholicism perfectly, we just disagree with it.

 

[CARV]

A christian should be happy given that joy is a fruit of the Spirit. What I meant was that as long as a Catholic could be content serving the Lord despite being considered heretical by his pastors and fellow churchmen then so be it. I won’t tell such a person that the should leave. I just think it would be a good idea especially if children were involved.

 

[guanophore]

As I former catholic, I am accustomed to the rules. And according to Catholic teaching, denying that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins is heresy.

Perhaps you can show where this teaching is found?

 Using contraception is a mortal and damnable sins. If one doesn't repent of these things, then you are damned. That's what the Catholic Church teaches. Take it or leave it.

I would also like to see the defnition of “mortal and damnable sins” according to the Catholic Church.

I would also like to see where the CC teaches that anyone is “damned”.

And I'm not leading anyone out of Catholicism. She is really only nominally catholic. She had already left for 10 years. Why lay that on me?

I do not, and I agree, she is nominally Catholic. You have encouraged her to keep going out.

Her question was should I attend a Catholic Church even though I don’t, and don’t show much desire, to accept all of Rome’s doctrine and my honest answer was no. Had she said “I believe in Rome’s teaching…should I go to a Catholic Church?” i would have said yes.

This is a good thing, but an even better one is to encourage her to understand the teachings, and why she objects to them. Like yourself, many ex-Catholics, Nominal and “cafeteria” catholics really have not studied the doctrines, and dont even understand why the Church teaches these things.

Do you know why contraception is considered sinful?

I have not once suggested the episcopal church to the OP. I just said that the Catholic Church isn’t a good fit for her. We all have to make a decision, which, if any, church we attend.

What she is saying is that she was baptized a Catholic, and that she has some leanings to stay Catholic because her family of origin is Catholic. I agree, we all have to make that decision. If she was not ambivalent about it, she would not have posted here!

You are suggesting that her present beliefs should govern her choice.

It appears that she has decided (well before I said a word to her) that she doesn’t believe Roman Catholic dogma. Why on Earth would someone advise her to attend a Catholic Church if that is the case?

I am not at all convinced she has “decided” anything of the sort. It does not seem to me that she has taken the time to explore and study the faith into which she was baptized as an infant. Why would someone? Because someone might be more concerned with the Truth than they might be assuaging their own preferences. One might realize that God disclosed Truth to the Church, and that we have an obligation to receive and live according to what he has revealed, whether we like it nor not, or whether we agree with it or not!

Obviously, a Roman Catholic who sees one of their former sisters as a lost sheep searching for the way home might take that position. But I saw a woman who had made up her mind about a few things and gave her what I believe was sound advise.

Yes. I accept that. we do not consider that advice sound. We think it is wrong to walk away from the responsibility to study to show ourselves approved. If one is going to walk away from something that important, it is necessary to make an informed decision.

I didn’t see an opportunity to steal a sheep from your flock. I never once even invited her to the EC. Episcopalians aren’t exactly known for proselyting. Catholics are much more prone to that behavior.

No, I did not think you did. You just told her she would not be welcome, which is not true.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Catholics would do well not that habitually look down on others who sincerely disagree with them by labelling them ignorant. Perhaps many of us non-catholics understand catholicism perfectly, we just disagree with it.

Ah…but many of you don’t fully get it…I know…I was one of them with misunderstandings (maybe sincere misunderstandings). There were a lot of us that misunderstand the Catholic faith. Your heart has to be in the right place…for me that took awhile before I was ready to listen.

God Bless!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

A christian should be happy given that joy is a fruit of the Spirit. What I meant was that as long as a Catholic could be content serving the Lord despite being considered heretical by his pastors and fellow churchmen then so be it. I won’t tell such a person that the should leave. I just think it would be a good idea especially if children were involved.

Just a question–do you agree with everything your church teaches? If you do then good for you…you are in the right place.

Is there no one in your congregation that might look at you and judge your destination? Seriously? Cause I’ve seen a lot of these in Protestant denominations too…

It seems weird to me to pick a religion out…based on your feelings…kind of like window shopping. I mean this is worship to God…not a sale at KMart. (I say this to everyone…not that I’m saying that is what you have done)

 

[guanophore]

As long as you are happy, that is all that matters.

No CARV, it is NOT.

What matters is the Truth, and obedience to God. Sometimes the truth hurts,and sometimes obedience is not fun,b ut it is necessary.

Like I said before, most Catholics don’t believe all of what Rome teaches but they still feel at home there.

They are self deceived.

I guess it wasn’t for me because I wasn’t a cradle catholic so leaving wasn’t all that hard. I had no cultural or family ties so when I changed my beliefs I simply changed my church again…

There is nothing in the history of the Church founded by Christ that would support such an approach.

 

[CARV]

Perhaps you can show where this teaching is found?

I would also like to see the defnition of “mortal and damnable sins” according to the Catholic Church.

I would also like to see where the CC teaches that anyone is “damned”.

I do not, and I agree, she is nominally Catholic. You have encouraged her to keep going out.

This is a good thing, but an even better one is to encourage her to understand the teachings, and why she objects to them. Like yourself, many ex-Catholics, Nominal and “cafeteria” catholics really have not studied the doctrines, and dont even understand why the Church teaches these things.

Do you know why contraception is considered sinful?

What she is saying is that she was baptized a Catholic, and that she has some leanings to stay Catholic because her family of origin is Catholic. I agree, we all have to make that decision. If she was not ambivalent about it, she would not have posted here!

You are suggesting that her present beliefs should govern her choice.

I am not at all convinced she has “decided” anything of the sort. It does not seem to me that she has taken the time to explore and study the faith into which she was baptized as an infant. Why would someone? Because someone might be more concerned with the Truth than they might be assuaging their own preferences. One might realize that God disclosed Truth to the Church, and that we have an obligation to receive and live according to what he has revealed, whether we like it nor not, or whether we agree with it or not!

Yes. I accept that. we do not consider that advice sound. We think it is wrong to walk away from the responsibility to study to show ourselves approved. If one is going to walk away from something that important, it is necessary to make an informed decision.

No, I did not think you did. You just told her she would not be welcome, which is not true.

It is hard to respond when you cut up your points. I’ll do my best. Catholic teaching states that some sins are mortal and some are venial. Contraception and heresy are considered mortal sins. Which means she shouldn’t recieve communion until she repents of these sins and confesses them to a priest. If she fails to do this before she dies, then she will be damned. I am pretty sure you already know this.

I haven’t encouraged her to do anything other than go to a church that preaches a faith that she is willing to practice. Again common sense.

I don’t understand why you insist on labeling those who disagree with catholicism as being necessariliy ignorant of it. As if it is impossible to understand yet disagree. I understand why Catholics assert that contraception is sinful but let’s not get off track. I would ask you not to be so quick to doubt my knowlege of a religion I converted to as an adult and remained in for years.

I am suggesting that she follow her conscience in choosing a church not basing it solely on family history.

I understand that as a Catholic you feel an obligation to convince others to join or remain in your church. You feel it is your duty to proseylize and I accept that. I would ask you to recognize that as a noncatholic I have no such duty to convince a person to be or stay catholic. A question was asked I gave a sincere answer. And for it I have been labeled an ignorant proselytizer who is going to face God’s judgement.

 

[DebCat129]

No CARV, it is NOT.

What matters is the Truth, and obedience to God. Sometimes the truth hurts,and sometimes obedience is not fun,b ut it is necessary.

They are self deceived.

There is nothing in the history of the Church founded by Christ that would support such an approach.

AMEN

 

[CARV]

Just a question–do you agree with everything your church teaches? If you do then good for you…you are in the right place.

Is there no one in your congregation that might look at you and judge your destination? Seriously? Cause I’ve seen a lot of these in Protestant denominations too…

It seems weird to me to pick a religion out…based on your feelings…kind of like window shopping. I mean this is worship to God…not a sale at KMart. (I say this to everyone…not that I’m saying that is what you have done)

The Catholic Church and the Episcopal Church are very different. The Catholic Church teaches that if you don’t accept certain teaching, pretty much the whole CCC, then you are a heretic and you must refrain from communion and repent or burn. Protestants churches often times don’t have such a comprehensive list of required beliefs.

No one is picking a church based on feelings. Protestants have sincere, deeply held beliefs as well as catholics.

 

[guanophore]

Sigh. Guan, is the priest you’re in front of in Christ’s physical flesh too while you’re sitting there?

He embodies Christ in a way that is physically present. I hope you are not expecting me to be able to explain the mysteries?!

Yes Guan I pointed out some benefits in a previous post to you.

Ok, well, you may be right, and I just did not agree, or maybe I did not see them, or maybe I could not fathom how they were benefits, so please help me again!

How is it of any benefit to be an apostasized Catholic, or excommunicated?

Here’s what you said Guan, “He (meaning me) does not seem to realize that being Catholic is like being pregnant. You either are, or you are not.” And you said that despite me having told you over and over I realize you either are or you are not a Catholic according to how the Church defines a Catholic in her teaching.

Ok, but you still seem to believe that you are in good standing with the Church if you reject her teachings. You reject the authority of your bishop over you, and you do not embrace the substance of what it means to be Catholic (refuse to believe all that the Church holds and teaches). This being the case, what benefit is it that you identify yourself as Catholic? Your brethren on CAF have also affirmed that your theology is Protestant.

I am more than a starting point baptized Catholic Guan. Catechized, confirmed, with an informed conscience too!

No, CMatt. When you listen to Fr. Corapi it will become clear that no one who has an informed conscience will reject the teachings of the Church.

Your conscience has been contaminated with Protestant heresies. it is informed, alright,but it is not Catholic in form or function. This is what it means when it says “seared as with a hot iron”. One can excuse oneself in rejecting the teaching of the Church on the basis of “conscience”.

 

[CARV]

Ah…but many of you don’t fully get it…I know…I was one of them with misunderstandings (maybe sincere misunderstandings). There were a lot of us that misunderstand the Catholic faith. Your heart has to be in the right place…for me that took awhile before I was ready to listen.

God Bless!

Just listen to yourself. What if I repeatedly asserted that many Catholics aren’t protestants because they don’t fully understand. In other words many catholics are just too stupid and self decieved to see the truth. If that is what you really believe then lets just stop talking right now. What’s the point?

 

[guanophore]

Ted, first welcome to the thread, and CAF, and thank you for being honest about your affiliation. You have more integrity than others here, who pretend that they embrace the faith by representing themselves in a disingenuous manner.

So it’s a spiritual discipline intended to help me grow in my faith - to be obeyed under penalty of burning in hell forever? What rubbish! That’s like a parent telling a child “You must go to school because it’s important for your future, and if you don’t go I will kill you.”

No, it is not. The bishop does not kill any members of the flock. Sin is what kills us. All disobedience is sin. It is the disobedient and rebellious heart that results in eternal damnation. The bishops have been given the responsibility to watch over our souls. We are to receive them, listen to them, and obey them as we do Christ. To rebel against them is to rebel against Him. If we reject Him, He will also reject us.

It makes no sense because the punishment for disobedience (eternal damnation) is worse than the consequence the bishop is ostensibly trying to avoid (a possible reduction in faith or grace) by threatening the punishment.

The bishop is not “threatening punishment”. The eternal consequences of sin are built into the sin. It is the bishops job to remind us of what they are, and to guide us into life.

I’ve learned through long experience to be very wary of people who claim authority over me. They rarely have my best interests at heart. Sorry, I just can’t put that much faith in a mere man.

no, but perhaps you can be healed by God so that you can place it in Him. We really have no need to fear of authority, because the Lord is our shepherd. As long as our shepherd is not leading us into sin, we can follow along without resistance.

Have you ever considered that this is God’s way of healing your authority wound?

 

[DebCat129]

It is hard to respond when you cut up your points. I’ll do my best. Catholic teaching states that some sins are mortal and some are venial. Contraception and heresy are considered mortal sins. Which means she shouldn’t receive communion until she repents of these sins and confesses them to a priest. If she fails to do this before she dies, then she will be damned. I am pretty sure you already know this.

Changing churches does not make anyone exempt from Gods Law, that is common sense…you can believe otherwise but you will be sadly mistaken in the end.

I haven’t encouraged her to do anything other than go to a church that preaches a faith that she is willing to practice. Again common sense.

I don’t understand why you insist on labeling those who disagree with Catholicism as being necessarily ignorant of it. As if it is impossible to understand yet disagree. I understand why Catholics assert that contraception is sinful but let’s not get off track. I would ask you not to be so quick to doubt my knowledge of a religion I converted to as an adult and remained in for years.

I am suggesting that she follow her conscience in choosing a church not basing it solely on family history.

I understand that as a Catholic you feel an obligation to convince others to join or remain in your church. You feel it is your duty to proselytize and I accept that. I would ask you to recognize that as a non catholic I have no such duty to convince a person to be or stay catholic. A question was asked I gave a sincere answer. And for it I have been labeled an ignorant proselytizer who is going to face God’s judgement.

We are all going to face Gods judgement and because you attend another church that is more liberal, and you are obedient to that churches teaching, and if it falls out of line with Gods teaching you will not be exempt from judgement. We all believe in the same God, and that God laid out some basic laws to follow, and we as Catholics love our brothers and sisters and when we see them believing a man made religion, that at best is a fallible interpretation of the Word, we merely want to help educate and evangelize…No one is saying you are ignorant, I did not see anyone accuse you or label you of that, you are just so conflicted…and argumentative…maybe it is you that has labeled yourself subconsciously…just a thought…