Stay Catholic or change religions?

[guanophore]

So now what? The non-Catholic section of CAF is supposed to now only be for a small community too of those who consider themselves the devoutest, purist Catholics?

The member to whom this is directed has indicated that his comfort is of primary importance.

CAF non is a place to compare and contrast. It may get uncomfortable. For such a person, a forum where discomfort is reduced might be more appropriate.

 

[guanophore]

Prove that.

Prove which? That the priest is there in the person of Christ, or that a well informed conscience accepts the Catholic faith?

Both of them are matters of faith, not science. These are truths that have been revealed to us by God. Revelation of God is not subject to human proofs. If you need scientific proof in order to believe, then it is no wonder you are fallen away!

 

[guanophore]

:clapping:

This is an example of becoming a stumbling block to others, CMatt. you are applauding anti-Catholic sentiment, while publicly purporting that you are Catholic.

Had you considered “dissident Catholic”. It seems you are real proud of calling yourself a Catholic, so maybe there is a way to include this without causing so much public scandal.

 

[CARV]

Changing churches does not make anyone exempt from Gods Law, that is common sense…you can believe otherwise but you will be sadly mistaken in the end.

We are all going to face Gods judgement and because you attend another church that is more liberal, and you are obedient to that churches teaching, and if it falls out of line with Gods teaching you will not be exempt from judgement. We all believe in the same God, and that God laid out some basic laws to follow, and we as Catholics love our brothers and sisters and when we see them believing a man made religion, that at best is a fallible interpretation of the Word, we merely want to help educate and evangelize…No one is saying you are ignorant, I did not see anyone accuse you or label you of that, you are just so conflicted…and argumentative…maybe it is you that has labeled yourself subconsciously…just a thought…

I only opined on the OPs question. Because my honest opinion was not to attend, a couple of people started digging in to me. I understnd that conservative catholics believe that it is their duty proselytize and to combat those that Rome labels as heretics. So I will take no offence and just accept that is just the way you are. But continuing a discussion seems rather pointless. You are convinced that the Roman Catholic religion is the one true religion and all people need to just recognize that and submit to your church. I am not going to do that.

 

[guanophore]

Ted, it can’t be proven. I’m sure they’ll try though. But it’s just what they believe apparently. It could get interesting seeing them try though.

Here you clearly state that Catholic belief belongs to “they”, as opposed to “us”. This is one of the most honest admissions you have made on CAF. Now, if you can follow it up with a more accurate self description, you will be making real progress.

 

[guanophore]

You don’t seem to relaize that she already has left…over 10 years ago. I had nothing to do with that.

Yes, she did, and no you did not.

She is asking whether she start attending again, after 10 years, without actually believing, or even showing a desire to believe, what Rome teaches.

Think about the situation here, CARV. She is posting her question on a Catholic Forum, looking for feedback. Why would a person do that who had no desire or interest? Now, you may be right in the end, shey may choose to reject what the Church teaches, but you can hardly say she is showing no desire. Her being here and posting refutes that by itself.

The common sense answer is that she would probably be more at home at another church.

Yes, common sense might answer this way. However, what might seem right to the way of man is not God’s way.

I understand that you have some deeply held convictions about Roman Catholicism but please try to understand many Christians genuinely disgree with Rome’s assertions and that it is less than polite to threaten them with God’s judgement for doing so.

God set things up so that there are eternal consequences for our choices. It is the duty of the Church to make people aware of these. The Church does not create heaven or hell, and neither does she have the power to send people to either one. Therefore there is no “threatening” here at all.

 

[guanophore]

What lies did I post about catholicism? I treated the OP like an adult giving her what seemed to be common sense advise.

Yes.

What you fail to observe is that what might seem like common sense to you may well be contrary to the will of God. I identified the lies and misinformation in another post above.

Many treated her like a child who did know what she was talking about and just assumed she was ignorant.

there is nothing wrong with being ignorant. We have all been ignorant of the faith at one point. Her faith may not have grown since she was a child,and it needs to mature with her. There is nothing wrong with that either.

jmcrae even went as afar as to assert that it was “physically impossible” to have an informed conscience and disagree with catholicism.

Well, I don’t know about physical, but it is true that a well informed conscience will accept all Catholic Teaching.

Catholics would do well not that habitually look down on others who sincerely disagree with them by labelling them ignorant.

There is nothing "down’ about not having all the information.

Perhaps many of us non-catholics understand catholicism perfectly, we just disagree with it.

So far, you have not demonstrated that understanding. On the contrary…

 

[John_Martin]

In another post someone listed scriptures that seemed to say “penance was not necessary”; you could go directly to God. The Church’s teaching and doctrines have a reason for being; they are not simple rules, but each have deep content.
Here was my reply to that post:

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’"
Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
Rom 4:5-7 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”

Penance is necessary – Why?
Luke and Paul and John understood more than what you read in the verses above:
They received commission to forgive or retain sins in representation of the King. If you “believe in His Name”, then you also take seriously the commission he gave to them for where to “get” the forgiveness – there is no “going directly to God” on your own for forgiveness. It is only within and by the action of the Church, carrying out Jesus command to forgive sins. “I will forgive your sin, and here I am sending you my representatives to deliver this forgiveness to you.”
God justifies the ungodly by putting a Holy People here in our midst, on earth, that carries his forgiveness to you. “Your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake” by a Priest who is fulfilling Jesus’ commission to act in His Name’s sake.

What is Penance – it is the Priest calling you to do some deed, some task – and what kind of tasks? These “tasks” of penance are things that a child of God, a citizen of the Kingdom of God would naturally do without being told. “Say an Our Father”, “return what you stole”, “give a gift to the poor”, etc. What is the priest asking of you? He is asking you to gain practice at doing the deeds that are the marks of your real citizenship, your real “being” as a child of God. He is asking you to gain practice and proficiency at acting as a Christian, as a Catholic, rather than acting as an unbeliever (which is what you repented of when you confessed your sin – you turned away from sinful practices, and now he is giving you practices to perform as a Catholic would do).
Penance is a joyful thing – learning to take Catholic steps and forgetting how to take sinful steps.

 

[John_Martin]

Great job John! Welcome to CAF and to this thread. Please copy this post over in the infant baptism thread. It is really needed there. Search "baptize infants’ if you have trouble finding it I will help you.

I posted it to “Baptism of Desire” and “Dedication of Children” - did you have a different thread in mind?
John

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I’d like to thank all those who, in this thread, try to put the Church in a bad light, or say they are Catholics and then proceed to verbally flay Catholicism and say they only follow their ‘conscience.’

You make me realize how much I value my recent swim across the Tiber. You make me more eager than ever to finish reading the Gospels. You make me see the light!

 

[guanophore]

I only opined on the OPs question. Because my honest opinion was not to attend, a couple of people started digging in to me.

You did, and we did. It was both the content of your advice, with which we disagree, and the manner in which it was given. Since it was couched in lies and misinformation about the Church, it triggered a rather vigorous response. Some of us are just not able to read such calumny and ignore it.

I understnd that conservative catholics believe that it is their duty proselytize and to combat those that Rome labels as heretics.

This statement contains more lies and calumny about Catholicism. I agree that it is our duty to proselytize. It is the duty of every Christian to do so. It is also the duty of non-conservative Catholics, though some of them don’t accept it.

It is erroneous to say that we believe we have a duty to “combat” people. People like the OP, and yourself I will add, are the ones to whom we are to reach out in love. As you have testified, combat is not a very effective method. Jesus tells us nowhere to “combat” people. Characterizing our reaction in this way is prejudicial. I do not deny that there are some conservative Catholics that are combative,but they are in the minority

Secondly, we are called upon to combat heresy, true, but according to the Church teaching (and you would know this if you had studied the Catholic faith before leaving it) modern Protestants for the most part do nto qualify for the status of heretics. In order to be considered a heretic one must have once embraced the truth, then with full knowledge chosen to reject it. Most modern protestants are like you and CMatt, they have not known the full gospel we have received from the Apostles. They have accepted what they have received, but in many cases, this began to be abbreviated 500 years ago, and they are not responsible for that.

And finally, your phrase “Rome has labeled as heretics” seems like a slur against the Apostolic doctrine as it has been preserved by the Latin patriarchy in Rome. Heresies preceeded this patriarchy, and are contested in every patriarchy of the Apostolic Church. Embracing heresy is one of the main factors by which souls pass through the gates of hell. Of course we have a duty to stand up for the faith delivered to us by the Apostles. That faith is not “Roman” as your accusation intimates.

 So I will take no offence and just accept that is just the way you are.

Clearly you are offended, or you would not be responding with bigoted and disparaging remarks.

But continuing a discussion seems rather pointless. You are convinced that the Roman Catholic religion is the one true religion and all people need to just recognize that and submit to your church. I am not going to do that.

The Catholic faith is not 'Roman", but you are correct, we do believe that the Catholic Church is that which was founded by Christ, and that He has preserved her infallibly from error.

All people are under the authority of the Church, whether they recognize it, or not. Jesus gave to Peter the duty to feed and care for the sheep. He meant ALL the sheep. The Roman Pontiff has received this charge from his predecessors, and your soul is as much his responsibility as the college of Cardinals.

At this point, you are a rebellious subject, but a subject nonetheless.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Awww don’t be such a prude. Christ died on the cross and took our sin and suffering with him. All we have to do now is feel good.

Forget the martyrs. Forget Thomas More. He shouldn’t have been such a stickler for the “rules.” He could have agreed with Henry VIII on the “essentials.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

:wave:Still waiting. Why does CMatt insists on belonging to a church he doesn’t agree with. :coffeeread:

Why join the club if you don’t want to follow the rules? :ehh:

 

[guanophore]

there is no “going directly to God” on your own for forgiveness

If this were true, then we would not have the Act of Contrition included in private prayer, and we would not have the Confiteor during the Liturgy.

I also think it is a mistake to fall into the trap of this language with our separated brethren They suggest that going through the sacraments is an obstacle, rather than “direct” encounter with God. We must take care not to feed into this notion. Encountering God in the sacraments is every bit as "direct’ as praying a prayer of repentance at home alone.

.

It is only within and by the action of the Church, carrying out Jesus command to forgive sins. "I will forgive your sin, and here I am sending you my representatives to deliver this forgiveness to you."

Yes, but there are some faithful christians that don’t know this, and God does not hold their ignorance against them. He hears the sincere prayer of repentance from whereever it comes.

Penance is a joyful thing – learning to take Catholic steps and forgetting how to take sinful steps.

I think many of our separated brethren have received a hostility toward Penance because of past abuses.

 

[CMatt25]

CMAT25

You are assuming that one missed Mass means you are going to hell? Missing Mass just pulls you away from God…something I wouldn’t want for anyone.

I hope you don’t mind that I’m going to put you on my prayer list to more clearly see the fullness of Christ and His Bride… (I just want everyone to be in love like I am).

Annabelle Marie, No I’m not assuming that but I’ve been told I am facing hell for it. Perhaps some of the posters here get a litle zealous at times in their judgment though. I don’t know.

And no I don’t mind at all. Prayer never hurt anyone and we all need them. Thank you and I’ll say a prayer for you as well. God bless you.

 

[guanophore]

:wave:Still waiting. Why does CMatt insists on belonging to a church he doesn’t agree with. :coffeeread:

Why join the club if you don’t want to follow the rules? :ehh:

I don’t think he really joined. I think he was baptized as an infant, and now he knows he is Catholic no matter what.

He seems like he is using his status as a person baptized into the Catholic Church to spread insidious misinformation about the faith, and become a stumbling block to others.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

:wave:Still waiting. Why does CMatt insists on belonging to a church he doesn’t agree with. :coffeeread:

Why join the club if you don’t want to follow the rules? :ehh:

One possible reason (and I am NOT saying it is Matt’s) is that those who are part of an organization and wish to change it feel that they can do so better as an ‘insider.’

If I were trying to ‘change’ the Democratic party’s platform, I would have a lot more influence if I were a solid member of the party than if I were a Republican or Libertarian, wouldn’t I? I’d be seen as “one of the group.” My point of view would be considered to be one that was based on the GOOD of the party and I’d be more likely to be listened to.

 

[guanophore]

I posted it to “Baptism of Desire” and “Dedication of Children” - did you have a different thread in mind?
John

Great! I was thinking of the one on baptism of infants but it maxed out and was closed!

 

[CMatt25]

Well, we see it differently. Perhaps you don’t realize that your posts communicate a proselyzing message, but they do.

And what about your comment to CMatt “you are always welcome”? Your posts are saying “your beliefs place you over here, let me hold the door open for you”.

Besides, to encourage someone who identifies as Catholic not to go to Catholic Church is clearly an effort to draw them away, rather than to encourage them to examine and explore why it is they identify as Catholic and yet, do not have Catholic faith.

You also posted lies and misinformation about the Catholic faith in your encouragement for her to go elsewhere. This is placing a stumbling block. If she chooses to leave, let it be because she has examined the real Teaching of the Church, and chosen to reject it. Not leave on the basis of lies and misinformation! What terrible spiritual guidance to give to anyone. It is as far from “good advise” as one can get.

Yes, it is a place to compare and contrast. It is for discussion, and your opinion does have a place here. Of course you are welcome! CAF was created for people like you. How else are you to find out that what you have been given to believe about Catholicism is false?

Good Morning Guan, since you brought me into the picture, allow me to assure you and everyone I did not, as a Catholic, in the least bit feel I was being proselytized by CARV. I already knew I would be welcomed by various Protestant churches. It is you yourself afterall who keeps saying every chance you get that my Baptism and I guess you would include Confirmation, does not make me Catholic or at least not Catholic enough. Whatever that means since you also say one is either Catholic or not. But anyway ii is you who every chance you get keeps saying I am Protestant! Peace.

 

[guanophore]

Annabelle Marie, No I’m not assuming that but I’ve been told I am facing hell for it. Perhaps some of the posters here get a litle zealous at times in their judgment though. I don’t know.

I dont’ know if that is necesarily zealous. If you think about it, we are all “facing hell” from the time we emerge from the womb. It is only God’s grace that saves us. If you refuse to come to Mass and receive God’s grace through it, then the road to hell is paved and waiting.

If you refuse the authority that Christ has appointed over you to shepherd your soul, then wide and easy is the way into the fire. These are just the facts. They are still the facts whether they are zealously presented or not. You seem to feel that you are exempt from certain spiritual principles. Unfortunately, this does not spare you from the fact that they function.