Stay Catholic or change religions?

[Tantum_ergo]

Do you think of the Catholic Church as a club? Don’t you think that’s rather frivolous?

I’m being absolutely serious here. I think that the “liberal” or “dissenting” Catholics who stay in the Church even though they question a lot of stuff are showing a better grasp of what Church means than those of you think that it’s a kind of theological club that you belong to because its teachings match your own beliefs.

Edwin

In a sense, Edwin, but imagine this: Imagine that you belong to a group of, let’s say, Jane Austen scholars or “Janeites”. While there is room for a lot of different ‘positions’ among your group, suppose you had as a card-carrying member with all the rights and privileges thereof a person who made it his habit to say, publically, that Jane was a stupid whore whose works were ‘ghosted’ by her brothers, whose novels were drivel of the worst sort? Now, what really is this person doing as member of a club which is set up because the people care about Jane Austen and believe she has made a real contribution to literature? Do you think that other members would be comfortable with this member representing himself to John Q Public as a person whose view of Jane should be considered as equally valid and valuable as other members, when he completely dissents, disparages and distorts in all he says of her?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Do you think of the Catholic Church as a club? Don’t you think that’s rather frivolous?

I’m being absolutely serious here. I think that the “liberal” or “dissenting” Catholics who stay in the Church even though they question a lot of stuff are showing a better grasp of what Church means than those of you think that it’s a kind of theological club that you belong to because its teachings match your own beliefs.

Edwin

I take my faith very seriously. I take the teachings of the Church very seriously. I do wonder why people who disagree with the Church on such fundamentals as the Eucharist, in such a flippant manner as CMatt does, would want to associate themselves with her. It’s like saying I don’t believe in TULIP, but call myself Reformed, or Calvinist.

For you to say dissenters have a better grasp of what Church means than I do is painting people with a very broad brush. Do you honestly believe CMatt has a better understanding of Church than CS Lewis, than St. Thomas More?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Agreed.

 

[jmcrae]

So it’s a spiritual discipline intended to help me grow in my faith - to be obeyed under penalty of burning in hell forever? What rubbish! That’s like a parent telling a child “You must go to school because it’s important for your future, and if you don’t go I will kill you.”

Actually, if the child doesn’t go to school, then his chances of getting into college become much slimmer (although there have been truants who went to college - Thomas Edison did) and the prospects of a bright future become much less likely. Not non-existent - there are happy, wealthy people who didn’t go to school when they were kids - but they are few and far between. The most likely outcome is poverty and homelessness. The parents can warn the children about this, without actually being the ones causing it.

Is it “fair” to “punish” someone for not liking their teachers with a life-time of homelessness and dire poverty? No - but it’s the reality that we have been given.

It makes no sense because the punishment for disobedience (eternal damnation) is worse than the consequence the bishop is ostensibly trying to avoid (a possible reduction in faith or grace) by threatening the punishment.

It’s not the Bishop who is giving out the punishment - it’s the Devil. God allows the Devil to do this to those who don’t want to follow Him. Why, I don’t know. But it’s the reality we have been given.

I’ve learned through long experience to be very wary of people who claim authority over me. They rarely have my best interests at heart. Sorry, I just can’t put that much faith in a mere man.

Then have faith in God, who tells us to obey our Bishops.

 

[CMatt25]

:wave:Still waiting. Why does CMatt insists on belonging to a church he doesn’t agree with. :coffeeread:

Why join the club if you don’t want to follow the rules? :ehh:

Oh hi Christine. Sorry if I missed you. A hopping thread. First of all I didn’t have a say on joining and the Church IDs me. A permanent bond and all that I’m sure you know. I’ve posted teaching about it. Not only baptized as Guan likes to claim and label me but confirmed, informed and catechized too. And I also listed reasons for Guan to digest if you don’t mind me not having to repeat myself continuously. Thank you! God bless and peace!

 

[CMatt25]

Yeah, I guess I am one ignorant mofo, along with you. hahaha. You are right though, we are United in Him. Christ isnt “selective”. Those who believe in him, whether they are Catholic or a non-Cath Christian, they are not denied. Christ’s love isn’t prejudice. Maybe I am wrong for thinking that…if I am, then I don’t know…haha, I guess I am just a stupid idiot.

Nah Laneo, stick around and then you might become as ignorant as I am. Or worse yet I know you say you have been Catholic since birth but you might even become Protestant!

 

[jmcrae]

Penance is a joyful thing – learning to take Catholic steps and forgetting how to take sinful steps.

That’s beautiful!

 

[laneo]

Nah Laneo, stick around and then you might become as ignorant as I am. Or worse yet I know you say you have been Catholic since birth but you might even become Protestant!

hahah. I’m sticking around, for free coffee and donuts…

 

[CMatt25]

Ok I hesitate responding and risk being told I am misunderstanding what you said. But so now I am trolling when I discuss beliefs on the non Catholic section and respond to posts and to the zillion things Guan keeps asking me?

 

[jmcrae]

And I know. I don’t understand it either. I will never understand the thinking that I am always right and you are wrong when it comes to faith and beliefs. Now if someone asks me if the grass is green outside my window today and I say no it is red, then yeah I am wrong.

Spiritual facts are just as true and real as physical facts. Just because we can’t see them doesn’t mean they aren’t there - or that they don’t have an actual effect on our eternal destiny, or on the quality of our lives in the here and now.

But in matters of faith and belief? :nope: That’s almost like saying I believe chocolate is the absolute best ice cream flavor in the universe (which I do!) :yup: and you say no strawberry. Strawberry is what you believe. Who am I to argue and label you ignorant. We both still have our eyes on the prize. Ice cream. Or in the case of our Christian faith, on Christ!

If you re-define Christ to be something other than what Christ actually is, then you don’t believe in Christ; you only believe in a fantasy. The fantasy has no power to save your soul - only the real Christ can do that. He is not a flavour of ice cream - He is the Saviour of your soul. If you don’t do what He tells you to do, you will fall out of the path, and you will not be saved.

 

[CMatt25]

Would you say a person is wrong if they didn’t believe in the Trinity, yet called himself a Christian? What if the person is color blind and the green grass looks red to him? So why don’t you just call yourself a Muslim? Who are you to argue that Jesus is the prize? A Muslim would disagree with you on that.

Have you ever been on the Islam threads? Would you defend your Christian faith there, or is one religion as good as another in your belief system?

Well what I believe is anyone who professes Christ Lord and Savior is a Christian. And I don’t call myself a Muslim because in my belief system Chrisitanity is my faith. No I don’t spend much time on Islam threads. But have some really good Muslim friends in real life who have a picture of Allah in their home. Their young child is the precious thing even though she attends Islam school. And we have exchanged gifts at Christmas and I have wished them a good Ramadan as well. We even have shared meals! Although admittedly, I am human and like all sometimes fail, I’m still striving to practice the Golden Rule. Hope that helps! God bless you and peace!

 

[guanophore]

And I know. I don’t understand it either. I will never understand the thinking that I am always right and you are wrong when it comes to faith and beliefs.

I hope you never do, since it would not be a worthy spiritual pursuit. There is a big difference between receiving the infallible revelation from God, and knowing it is 100
% reliable, and thinking that, as in individual “I am always right”. Individuals can only have confidence they are adhering to the full truth if they are embracing the apostolic faith preserved by the HS in the Church. It is not “their” truth (that comes from themselves, or their own convictions) but the Truth that has been handed down.

 Now if someone asks me if the grass is green outside my window today and I say no it is red, then yeah I am wrong.  But in matters of faith and belief?  :nope:  That's almost like saying I believe chocolate is the absolute best ice cream flavor in the universe (which I do!)  :yup: and you say no strawberry.  Strawberry is what you believe.  :shrug:

Except that these are about a persons personal opinions, likes, dislikes and perceptions. We all have these, and no one else can say they are 'right" or “wrong” because they reflect individual differences. The Teaching of Christ stands outside of individual differences and opinions. Unlike our tastes and preferences, it does not come from within ourselves, but from God.

Who am I to argue and label you ignorant. We both still have our eyes on the prize. Ice cream. Or in the case of our Christian faith, on Christ!

You can make an observation that I have departed from the One Faith. If it appears that I have done so because I don’t know any better, then I may have done it in ignorance.

 

[CMatt25]

What is Communion?

You don’t know? I’ll answer assuming you mean as it pertains to a Sacrament or reinactment of the Last Supper in a church setting. Well depending on the church it is believed to be receiving Christ in the Eucharist either in His physical presence or in His spiritual presence or for some it can be more symbolic. Again depending on the church. Of course I think it’s pretty safe to say since God is everywhere, He is at least present in spirit if not body everywhere. Hope that helps!

 

[CMatt25]

hahah. I’m sticking around, for free coffee and donuts…

Your parish has free coffee and DOUGHNUTS! Wow one I used to attend doesn’t. Another has bagels. But doughnuts? You’re especially blessed!

 

[guanophore]

Yeah, I guess I am one ignorant mofo, along with you. hahaha. You are right though, we are United in Him. Christ isnt “selective”. Those who believe in him, whether they are Catholic or a non-Cath Christian, they are not denied. Christ’s love isn’t prejudice. Maybe I am wrong for thinking that…if I am, then I don’t know…haha, I guess I am just a stupid idiot.

No, laneo, you are a priest, prophet, and king in Christ, so don’t go around calling yoruself names like this. It does not glorify God! He gave His life for you so that you can proclaim Him, not put yourself down.

We share unity in our baptism, but for many, that is where it ends. Unity comes from adherance to the Truth. If one says that the Truth cannot be known until Jesus comes again, then one is denying the faith into which they were baptized. Jesus sealed the Apostles in His Truth, and they passed this Truth to their successors. He has preserved His Truth infallibly in the Church, just as He said He would. It IS possible to know and follow the Truth. We all start out ignorant, but don’t have to stay that way.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You don’t know? I’ll answer assuming you mean as it pertains to a Sacrament or reinactment of the Last Supper in a church setting. Well depending on the church it is believed to be receiving Christ in the Eucharist either in His physical presence or in His spiritual presence or for some it can be more symbolic. Again depending on the church. Of course I think it’s pretty safe to say since God is everywhere, He is at least present in spirit if not body everywhere. Hope that helps!

So which church’s version do you believe in?

Do you believe Christ is physically present in the Eucharist?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You don’t know? I’ll answer assuming you mean as it pertains to a Sacrament or reinactment of the Last Supper in a church setting. Well depending on the church it is believed to be receiving Christ in the Eucharist either in His physical presence or in His spiritual presence or for some it can be more symbolic. Again depending on the church. Of course I think it’s pretty safe to say since God is everywhere, He is at least present in spirit if not body everywhere. Hope that helps!

“Depending on the church?” You mean that it’s not GOD who chooses reality but the ‘preception’ of an individual or his church?

You mean that God, because He is ‘everywhere’ is present to the ‘symbolic’ crowd in the way they ‘perceive’, and that this is ‘just as good’ as the “Catholic perception?” Just as “true”? Symbolic is not ‘real’, but hey, if symbolic is what somebody wants then it is just as ‘good’ and ‘true’ as Real?

How. . . indifferent that seems.

 

[guanophore]

Here’s just one place in CCC 846 if you consider these folks “anyone”.

" they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

This is describing conditions that will result in permanent separation from God. It is the duty of the Church to spread the teachings of Jesus. The Church does not “damn” anyone. We cannot know the heart of a person. That is between themselves and God only. We can only proclaim that which we know. We know that there is no salvation outside of Christ - there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. Those who know who Christ is, and refuse Him, will have his permission to make the choice to be separated from Him for eternity.

No requirement to refrain from Communion? What a novel idea. Oh no wait I already knew that. And it really isn’t all that novel. As long as you believe in Him, Christ already said He would turn no one away when called to Him by the Father. (Jn 6:37) And ppl wonder why you said they are welcoming!

Communion is the celebration of our unity with one another and with Christ. Why would you want to participate in an act that is basically a lie? A person who receives and does not believe is not in unity.

When one comes to Christ, and is “in Christ”, one does not pick and choose the parts of His teaching one will embrace. One is either all in, or not. That is why the “cafeteria” concept indicates one who is outside of communion.

Guan, of course I do not expect you to explain the mysteries of FAITH.

Whew! I was worried there for a sec.

Sigh. Ok Guan let me repeat some. We will know for a fact any benefits when we meet Him face to face or He comes again whichever is first. But in the meantime you can worship in the CC.

Thank you for your permission to do this. I was really worried what I was going to do if you did not give it.

Speak for yourself, though. Catholics already know the benefits (and lack of them) because Jesus has revealed this to His Church. He did not leave us orphans, as you sugggest. Persons such as yourself, who have chosen to leave the Apostolic faith, become spiritual orphans by your own choice.

And Guan, I hear so much about Fr Corapi on these forums that I’m almost expecting God to choose him the next Pope!

I sure wish He would! But, God knows best. Fr. Corapi says he would not make a good pastor, because he does not care a rat’s behind about what anyone thinks. Maybe a Pope needs more diplomacy?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And Matt, before you respond yet again about how ‘buttoned down’ and intolerant I am with my insistence on 'the Church being right all the time". . .sugah, been there and done that.

I had a LOT of friends back in my ‘indifferent’ period, myself. I was the Catholic who was all about “unity”. I was so fond of saying that there were ‘many’ paths to God and that we were all at different ‘points’ on our faith journey. I was so supportive of all people and whatever they ‘choose’ to be their morality because, hey, God just wanted us to be ‘happy’ and to emphasize ‘unity’. I ‘picked and choose’ from the cafeteria and ‘adapted’ from other traditions as I saw fit.

Sound familiar?

What happened, I’m sure you’re thinking. What happened to turn this lovely, embracing, INTELLIGENT person into the straight-laced traditionalist who cheerfully submits in obedience to some "Monolith’ church?

God happened, that’s what. Praise the Lord, He can ‘open the eyes’ and melt the heart of even the blindest, proudest, most secular and smug among us. He did it for me even though I surely didn’t deserve it. That’s why I’ll keep hoping and praying for you, Matt. People I never knew as well as some I came to know later were praying for me in just that way. And they’re praying for you too, Matt! God bless.

 

[guanophore]

That is just it, it is not his faith. He refers to Catholics as “they”, and self professes that he does not believe in the teachings of the Church. That way, he can sit back and mock Catholicism without owning it.

No but I’ve considered “Baptized, Confirmed, properly catechized, informed dissenting” but that might not fit into the space and then you wouldn’t like that either.

Yeah, it is a small space. Well, you might as well leave off the baptized and confirmed, since those conditions do not describe your current condition of faith, nor will they be of any eternal value unless you return to their purpose. I think you would have a hard time defending that you were properly catechised, given the number of errors in your posts. Same with informed.

Dissenting will fit and is certainly accurate!

I would stop railing on you for causing scandal, too.

So since the Church considers me Catholic, that's good enough for me.

That same church is informing you that people who are baptized and confirmed will not be saved if they reject the faith. How is this “good enough” for you? How is it you want to identify yourself with a Church that considers you to be on the road to hell?