Stay Catholic or change religions?

[guanophore]

Guan, I’m not telling the Apostles anything. Jesus did that. And Jesus taught us to know them by their fruits. God bless you.

Yes, Jesus did tell us we could know them by their fruits. However, He also empowerd His Apostles with the ability to forgive and retain sins. Now, if you were going to follow the instructions in James to confess your sins, why would you NOT want to confess them to the person Jesus empowered to forgive them?

:yawn: Guan, have heard it all before. You and all the others who dissent with the Church on who is Catholic should rewrite Catholic teaching on who is Catholic in the eyes of the Church. Otherwise feel free to join me in line. :coffeeread: God bless you on your journey. Peace.

Yes, I think you have heard it all before. However, you did not answer my question. What eternal (or even temporal) benefit is it to a person baptized Catholic if he has excommunicated himself from the Church by rejecting the teachings?

Also, what benefit is it for you to call yourself Catholic, when you do not believe and practice the Catholic faith?

You seem to be really hung up on being required to attend the All Saints Day Mass in your Diocese.

What is it about that particular Mass that offends you so?

It wasn’t the Mass, it was his authority problem. He is kicking against the goads because he was told it was a mortal sin that he did not attend.

That can be said for all of us at times. We’re discussing beliefs though.

Yes, of course! However, there is a difference between what the Apsostles taught as Truth, and what any one person thinks is right for them. Well, there does not necessarily HAVE to be a difference, but in this case, there is.

What I don’t understand is somebody (Catholic to boot!) like CMatt saying that he 'goes to the Father direct" as though this ‘differs’ from going to the Father through the Church, through the saints, etc. and is somehow ‘better.’

I dont’ think He recognizes Jesus present in the sacraments. His theology is Protestant.

**Catholics have though more responsibility as they do have an authority through which they can know the truth and through which they go ‘directly’ to God (can’t imagine being more direct than receiving Him in the Eucharist!) so if they are ‘listening for Him’ and hearing teachings that contradict Catholic teaching, they can and should submit to the authority as being correct and that they are either misunderstanding the teachings that contradict Catholic teaching (such that they really are the same teachings but the person listening doesn’t understand correctly), or else what they ‘hear’ is not really from God if it contradicts Catholic Teaching. **

I am not sure he believes in the Real Presence, either.

He does not feel obligated to submit to any Catholic authority as far as I can tell.

Is that all Christ really said, “All you have to do is believe?” If that’s what you believe, why be Catholic?

Catholics don’t believe in a works-based salvation. You cannot believe in God on your own.

He is only masquerqding. He beleives he can pick and choose what parts of the Catholic faith he can embrace. He does not seem to realize that being Catholic is like being pregnant. You either are, or you are not.

For some they believe by the Holy Spirit. Christ told us He is the truth and the Truth shall come again. In the meantime it’s all faith and belief. God bless you in yours. Peace.

This is one of those anti-Catholic mantras I see in your posts, CMATT. Jesus promised to lead the Church into all Truth, and he has done so. Your assertion that we cannot know the Truth until He comes again is false.

If He needs to correct the Apostolic successors if they have strayed then who are we to say He does not have that power if that is what someone believes.  He did afterall teach by their fruits we shall know them.

Indeed, he does correct them to guide them into all Truth. He does not do this by leading men to fracture the unity of the body, and through the creation of heresies. this is another reference to your support of the Protestant Reformation. You suggest that it was God’s will for these people to disobey the authority appointed by Christ. Perhaps this is how you justify doing it yourself.?

 

[guanophore]

I just thought most were like me and others I grew up around. I guess that is not true. Either way, sorry I don’t agree with everything. Just stop wasting your time on me; I am not worth the trouble.

Unless man added to the rules. Easy. The Church He set up is made up of the body of His believers. Christ was big on us believing in Him. Not so much on rules. Just ask the Pharisees.

ou are the reason we are here, laneo! SOrry we all laid into you rather strong. I don’t think we took your situation into account very well. At least, I did not. I have a pet peeve with those who claim to be Catholic, and don’t embrace the teachings of the Church. It is nothing personal.

 

[guanophore]

Unless man added to the rules. Easy. The Church He set up is made up of the body of His believers. Christ was big on us believing in Him. Not so much on rules. Just ask the Pharisees.

This is an example of those anti-Catholic statements you make, CMatt. No, Jesus did not set up a “body of believers”. He built His Church upon the Rock of Peter, and Peter’s faith. The body of believers came along later. The structure of the church founded by Christ has Apostolic authority. You have embraced a Protestant view of the church, which is deficient. It represents a departure from what the apostles believed and taught.

Christ was big on obedience, to the commandments, and to His authority, which He gave to the Apostles. Faith and obedience go together. Those who are disobedient have a conmpromised faith.

No I think perhaps he’s just shocked about how some treat people who disagree with them here. But speaking for myself, I did think I’d come here and find all the so called self professed hardcore knowing the Church definition of who is Catholic though. So that surprises me a bit.

Yeah, we get a little over vigorous at times. I have a pet peeve with people who call themselves Catholic, but are not Catholic in their faith, and post anti-Catholic material under the guise of being of the One Faith.

It is not the Church definition of who is Catholic, CMatt. The issue is, what benefit is it to you to be a lapsed Catholic, or an apostate Catholic. How is that helpful?

How is it helpful to mislead the innocent, but posting anti-Catholic sentiments under the guise of being a Catholic?

 

[jmcrae]

I’d be careful though just walking into any nearby church. The nearest one to me has a priest who says his answer to the poor is simply to get a job.

And how do you know he doesn’t give them work? Our pastor here has the “give a hand up, not a hand out” approach, as well - and he is always helping the poor, by giving them honest work to do, and setting them up at the job bank for temporary work, until they become well-known enough in the community to be able to get full time permanent work - yes, even in the middle of a recession.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Has Richard Dawkins ever consulted with a priest, or humbled himself and considered the idea that not everything that there is to know is contained in his mind?

Sorry I meant to use him as an example of a person that studies, but with a mind closed to the Holy Spirit. He is a very learned man that rejects Christ. So studying alone will not help one discover the One True Faith.

 

[guanophore]

Why baptize?
.
• Explanations do not do a lot to solve this focus, because these explanations are assuming that a certain understanding of the “physical side” of Baptism exists with people. But few people in the modern world have an understanding of the “physical side”.
o When the question arises of “How does Baptism save us?” the explanations are something like, "It is not merely water, but a life-giving washing of regeneration (a sacrament) because it is based on Christ’s command and promise and it is performed in his name.
o That, too, is a focus on the “spiritual side” as an explanation of what is spiritually happening within the physical side, but not telling what is really happening on that physical side.
o Basically, people find it difficult to see how a human action of pouring water on me by a priest in a white robe can do anything to save my soul.
• So, what is really happening on the “physical side” of baptism?
o Do you remember how the whole hope and all the promises of the Old Testament were focused on the promise of the Messiah, who would establish an eternal kingdom? “Messiah” means “Christ” in Greek, and it means “Anointed One” in English.
 They were waiting for the one whom God would anoint as King to establish a new government that would be on his shoulders, a new nation, a new kingdom - not created by men, as our ancestors did when they used weapons to establish the United States.
 The physical side of Baptism began with Jesus being baptized (anointed) as that King –
• The physical activity of John baptizing him was his appointment to the office of King (and High Priest). Jesus became the first citizen of that Kingdom when he was baptized.
• The spiritual side of Jesus’ Baptism was the Dove from heaven, and then the voice from heaven, both confirming what everyone physically saw happen.
 Jesus’ Kingdom was ON Earth, but it was not OF men (men did not establish it). It was OF God - God established it. It was a kingdom OF God, not a kingdom OF men.
 That is the Gospel – the “Gospel of the Kingdom of God” – it is real, it is here, and you are a citizen of it, as described below.
o Here, then is the physical side of baptism –
 Jesus commanded his disciples to make people into new disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit –
• In other words, he commanded his disciples to grant citizenship to people into his Kingdom on earth by baptizing them.
• It is a kingdom with citizens,
• But it is a kingdom with no land (yet), as Jesus said, “Foxes have dens, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head” (“Son of Man” was the title for the Messiah, the Anointed King, from the prophets of the Old Testament).
• If our King had nowhere to lay his head in his kingdom on earth, then neither do we who are citizens of that kingdom on earth - we are resident aliens on earth, in the human established nations where we live.
 The church is the association of people who are citizens of that kingdom on earth.
• Jesus appointed leaders with the command and authority to grant citizenship and teach the new citizens.
• So, the church baptizes people (grants them citizenship) and then teaches them that it is greater than just an earthly kingdom, but has the spiritual side also.
• When you were baptized you became a citizen of Jesus’ kingdom on earth, but he is risen from death; you who are his subjects on earth will also be with him in his spiritual, eternal kingdom.
• All participating in Jesus’ kingdom on earth, by faith also know they are part of a kingdom that transcends earth into the heavens where He sits at his Father’s right hand.
• They know that their baptism was physically “the granting of citizenship into a kingdom on earth”, and they know it was also a washing of new birth into sonship in the heavenly kingdom. Their True Nationality is “Christian”.
o No one is “born” into Jesus’ kingdom by human birth – you were not born a Catholic. Babies are not “automatically” Christians.
 People desiring to be in Jesus’ kingdom are accepted in, baptized into citizenship
 However, since its beginnings, the Church has always welcomed whole families into citizenship together, baptizing children, teaching them as they grow up about the true nature of the kingdom of God – that they are part of it on earth and will be part of it when their King returns to claim them.
 If we do not baptize our children, then we cannot comfort them by saying, “you are Jesus’ brother / sister”, “you are one of his people”, “Jesus chose you and made you his own”, etc. Instead we would have to say to them, “When you are old enough to choose for yourself, then you can be a part of Jesus’ kingdom, but you cannot be a part of his people yet because you cannot think clearly yet until you reach a certain age.”
• That may sound cruel, but the kingdom is here, and it has a physical point of entrance (baptism) – don’t hold back your child / baby from being brought into the kingdom, and then learning to know who their king is.
• Jesus declared the same when people brought babies and children to him (Luke 18:15-17) – his Kingdom belongs to them and all who receive it like they do. Jesus rebuked his disciples for stopping these parents, so since then the Church does not refuse citizenship to babies and children who are brought to Jesus’ Kingdom by their parents. The Church grants this blessing of citizenship to the babies and children by baptizing them, and then teaches them about their King as they grow.
This physical reality bearing the spiritual reality is not present anywhere else in the world.

Great job John! Welcome to CAF and to this thread. Please copy this post over in the infant baptism thread. It is really needed there. Search "baptize infants’ if you have trouble finding it I will help you.

 

[TedDC]

Those pesky rules. I hate rules, don’t you? I am looking for a religion that will assure me of salvation without any rules. Until I find it, I will just remain Catholic and obey the rules.

That statement reflects a distinctive “Catholic mentality” that seeks a defined structure and is uncomfortable with ambiguity, and is willing to trade independent thought and judgment for assurances from authority. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing; I just think it explains why we see such strong differences over Catholicism, with some people drawing great comfort from the faith while others simply can’t accept it.

 

[guanophore]

"CARV:

In my opinion, you are probably not a good fit for the Catholic Church. You would have to live in opposition with what your church teaches. Your children would probably be taught that thier non-catholic father is going to hell and that you’re going to hell because you use contraception (if you do, that is).

Carv…the nerve of you!!! Wow, what you are doing right here IS A MORTAL SIN!

I dont think we can assume this. He seems to be sincere in what he is saying, which likely means that he does not know any better. If he really believes this is what would happen, then he does not have the knowledge required for a mortal sin.

It would be a mortal sin if one of US did it, since we know his statements to be untrue.

What you are doing is condemning jlengle,and telling her to leave the church, instead of hearing jlengle and addressing his or her objections,

How is he condemning her? It seems to me that this is an attempt to be supportive. Clearly he considers church affiliation something that relates to one’s comfort level, rather that the amount of Truth that is present. Since he seems to believe these lies about Catholicism, he is just encouraging a more comfortable situation.

you are telling them they are going to hell, and to leave the Church! Wow…put the brakes on, you don’t have that authority…

No, I dont think so . I think he is saying that Catholics will tell her she is going to hell.

God help you, because if you cause jlengle to leave the church that will be on your soul forever, and you will be called to account for that!

I am sure he thinks he is helping. Anyway, God is bigger than all the lies that were ever created. And, He can write straight with crooked lines.

Thansk for sharing your testimony, and for your encouragement of this inquirer.

You have a powerful witness.

 

[CARV]

Don’t kid yourself…that’s exactly what you seem to be trying to do. By saying that if you raised your kids Catholic that eventually they wouldn’t have any faith in Christ at all.

Seriously…if I saw a post that was “stay episcipalian or change religions” I sure won’t go on there and BLAST your faith…

I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that if you are raising your kids in a particular religion (be it Catholic or otherwise) it would be prudent to actually believe that religion yourself. Your kids are eventually going to pick up on the fact, by the way you live, that you don’t live according to the tenets of your own faith. It would probably cast a lot of doubt on the concept of religious faith itself. I can comfortably raise my family in the Episcopal Church because I am a professed and practicing protestant Christian.

 

[jmcrae]

I can comfortably raise my family in the Episcopal Church because I am a professed and practicing protestant Christian.

Which is why it’s a mystery, why you are proselytizing on CAF. There are plenty of Protestant forums where your views would be the majority view. Surely they would be more comfortable for you.

 

[guanophore]

If I may;
I was in very much the same situation about 2 years ago. The best thing to try is to talk to your parish priest and see about RCIA. No one is going to ask you for a commitment before you discern what the Lord is calling you to do. I was a Cradle Catholic, received the sacraments of First Eucharist and Confirmation, then due to family issues left home. I always felt God pulling me back. After meeting my current husband I attended the Lutheran Church with his family and eventually married in that church. Along the way I experimented with different faiths and found myself learning about the LDS, Mormon, faith. I joined and spent 10 years there with my sons. I did not join from conviction, comfort and family atmosphere. I was not where I was suppose to be and knew it. I worked up the courage to go to mass and felt that it was right, actually more than right! I met with our parish priest just knowing that I had burnt my bridges and would not be able to come home. I was so wrong! The Church is not punative. The rules are not what I thought they were. It took going in and asking the questions to get the real answers. A lot of people out there think they “know” church teaching, maybe not!

A lot has happened since I started asking questions. My husband is not and most likely will never be a Catholic. My marriage was convalidated, recognized, by the church and I am back in full communion. My yougest son was received into the Church at Easter Vigil 2010, my older son is still investigating and learning.

The reason for my wandering was bad/incomplete education in the Catholic Church as well as not asking questions from people in postition to have the correct/authentic answers. Find out all you can and pray about what you are learning. May God bless you on your journey.

Thank you for sharing this great testimony.

 

[CARV]

CARV, I fully understand where you are coming from. I struggle. But the way I’ve handled it to date is like this. I have no idea where God may lead me tomorrow. But in the meantime one does not need to be without doubt in regard to some beliefs in order to worship in the Catholic Church. And I haven’t lost my faith in Christ by doing so. I know His struggle in bearing the cross which He did for each of us and the sacrifice He made for us on that cross He bore, was far greater than any struggle I may have. But I understand where you’re coming from as well. And btw best wishes on the little one on its way! God bless!

My best wishes to you. But it seems that you bear many convictions akin to protestant Christianity that are shunned by your own. Remember that you are always welcome.

 

[CARV]

Which is why it’s a mystery, why you are proselytizing on CAF. There are plenty of Protestant forums where your views would be the majority view. Surely they would be more comfortable for you.

I am not trying to proselytize anybody. I only opined on whether or not one should stay in the Catholic Church if one doesn’t believe what they teach.

 

[CARV]

Carv…the nerve of you!!! Wow, what you are doing right here IS A MORTAL SIN! What you are doing is condemning jlengle,and telling her to leave the church, instead of hearing jlengle and addressing his or her objections, you are telling them they are going to hell, and to leave the Church! Wow…put the brakes on, you don’t have that authority…I’m sure as my spiritual director tells me…we don’t know what happens in the heart between the time that someone knows they are going to die and when they die…Gods grace abounds, and he wants us all to make it to heaven, its not your place to condemn. God help you, because if you cause jlengle to leave the church that will be on your soul forever, and you will be called to account for that!

You have misunderstood me. I obviously wasn’t condemning her. I was explaining that the Catholic Church views her actions as sinful and her views as heretical. In the church’s view, if she doesn’t repent then she will be damned. That’s your church’s view not mine.

 

[CARV]

The problem here is you are not seeking out the truth…you poison your children anyway when you either don’t teach them or you teach them half truths. People need to have the courage to face the truth and only then will they grow…People need to remember that faith and truth are a gift given by God.
Don’t assume you know about others lives…I will give you an example why you should not assume… My husband and I have only 1 living son…we lost twins at 24 weeks gestation, and we lost another son at 8 months…We don’t use contraception, we do NFP…people such as yourself judge us every day, saying we are hypocrites and phonies because we only have one living miracle, our beautiful son…on top of that when I get pregnant I become very ill, nonetheless we want more kids, but we have not been blessed to conceive again…Keep your judgements to yourself, you may be wrong…I never miss mass, I go daily, however on weekends we attend other parishes in our area… we have particular priests that we enjoy listening to and visiting…so…someone such as yourself my assume that we miss church often, you’d be wrong…we have not missed church once in over 10 years…not for any reason…I’d be careful with your faulty assumptions. Also, you are not doing yourself any favors by leading others astray…you can call it what you want, the action is creating doubt because you are lacking…but it does not have to be that way…you can soften your hardened heart, just ask the Lord to guide you.
If you would spend more time on your spiritual well being, and less time making assumptions about others, you might be in a better place…and you might have a leg to stand on…You are not the rule you are the exception…If you got to know those that you are judging you may realize how wrong you really are…Yes there are those who think they are Catholic, but pick and choose what the want to believe, but Church was not given to us by Jesus for only perfect people to attend, he gave us the church so that we can get better spiritually, to heal ourselves of our selfish thoughts and actions…otherwise if we were all perfect why would we need God??? We are not so he gave us the next best thing…a road map on how to make it Heaven…its not an easy road, but its worth the journey… He calls all of us…and in his time he will reveal himself to those fallen away, those living protestant lives…but when they come home…what a glorious day…

Honestly, who is judging who. I merely pointed out the Catholic Church’s teaching to the OP and suggested that she find another church if she doesn’t accept them, which she indicated that she doesn’t. You have accused me of leading people astray, making assumptions about people, and even warned me of my impending damnation for giving her my sincere opinion.

 

[guanophore]

Christ also warned us not to simply blindly follow without using our God given minds to look at the fruits of those we follow so as to know them. I’ll assume though you mean only a Catholic Bible study with its interpretations is good though, right?

Did you think someone here was encouraging you to “simply blindly follow”? Do you think that is what the other Catholics on CAF do?

Your comments make it sound like you don’t know any faithful Catholics. Is that the case?

I really think you need Fr. Corapi’s Catechism series.

Jm, I will never be God but you don't have to exclude anyone either.  God according to the CC has already decided.

People exclude themselves, CMatt. when you decide to reject the teachings of the Church, you exclude yourself! That is why it is a lie with your body if you receive communion in such state. That is why Paul commands that a man must examine himself.

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... **All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ**; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

1. It remains clear, in any event, that **the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond **which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection
   vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Peace as we strive to walk in unison, in our unity in Him, with our fellow baptized Christians all as members of the Body of Christ.

Unity is not achieved by denying the Truth, CMatt.

My best wishes to you. But it seems that you bear many convictions akin to protestant Christianity that are shunned by your own. Remember that you are always welcome.

I am glad that he can get this affirmation from another Protestant. He seems reluctant to accept that his convictions are protestant. We don’t shun him, however. He is always welcome in the Catholic Church. As our beloved brother, though, he will be subject to admonishment for his hypocritical and disingenuous representation of himself.

 

[guanophore]

I am not trying to proselytize anybody. I only opined on whether or not one should stay in the Catholic Church if one doesn’t believe what they teach.

Yoiu are proselytizing, Carv. You have done it in several of your posts.

I do agree that you were giving your honest opinion along with your proselytizing though,and I agree with you on that point. Parents should not raise their children with values they do not embrace themselves. Kids see right through that.

 

[CMatt25]

Guan, Our Heavenly Father gave us the Lord’s Prayer and in it words asking for forgiveness of our trespasses. James gave us confessing to one another not only to priests. And it’s also fine to confess in front of a priest. I am not arguing against the Sacrament of Penance as a means of forgiveness.

I answered your question as to any benefits. You just don’t like the answer. But we shall know when He comes again. In the meantime the Church is here if you want to avail yourself to Her for worship, as a means of reconciliation thru the Sacrament of Penace and Anointing of the Sick, and so forth. And you say I do not realize who is Catholic. Yet it is you who appears to continue having difficulty accepting the Church’s definition of who is Catholic. Not I. So yes of course one is either a Catholic by the Church’s teaching or is not.

But when bishops are not even on the same page in regards to Mass Holy Day obligations required to avoid mortal sin and fellow Catholics worldwide are not all under the same edicts and obligations on something as serious as mortal sin, then I believe they are manmade. And I submit to Christ’s authority first and foremost. You can believe Christ is telling one bishop one thing and another something else and that Christ determines the obligation of Mass attendance based on location. I do not. And in another example, the Ascension either occurred on a Thurs 40 days after His Resurrection from the tomb or it occurred on a Sunday as observed in Canada.

I don’t recognize Jesus in the Sacraments? Huh? Guan, was it not I who told you God is in the confessional with you?

But Guan the main difference is not what you or I think the Apostles taught or what anyone else thinks. The difference is recognizing the difference between faith and belief vs presuming to think one knows with absolute 100% certainty everything there is to know about someone as perfect as God. For me to claim I know everything there is to know about God, and thinking with all certainty that I have every dotted 'i" and crossed “t” absolutely correctly, I believe is to place myself on the same level as Him. We have not yet attained our Heavenly home, Guan. He has not yet come again for us. It is there where we shall abide in all perfection and truth.

Guan, you can continue questioning the Church on Her definition of who is Catholic. I am not going to continue responding every single time. But yes I know some who are more faithful and some less.

I sometimes wonder if when many of us or with faith and hope all of us, meet abiding in His Heavenly presence someday, how we will rejoice together and may share a laugh at some of the things we “argued” about here on CAF. God bless you, Guan, on your lifelong journey of faith with Him. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

Honestly, who is judging who. I merely pointed out the Catholic Church’s teaching to the OP and suggested that she find another church if she doesn’t accept them, which she indicated that she doesn’t. You have accused me of leading people astray, making assumptions about people, and even warned me of my impending damnation for giving her my sincere opinion.

No, CARV. You transmitted lies and misinformation. I am williing to accept that you may not know any better, but what you “pointed out” is NOT Catholic teaching!

I agree with you that the OP should not pretend to be Catholic if she cannot accept the catholic teachings. But she needs to study them first, understand what they really are. You are encouraging her to leave before this has been done, and that is a mistake.

You are leading people out of Catholicism, or trying to, and you are making assumptions (some of them false) about what the Church. I don’t think you are facing impending damnation for your opinion, but it is wrong for you to spread lies about Catholicism.

 

[CARV]

Yoiu are proselytizing, Carv. You have done it in several of your posts.

I do agree that you were giving your honest opinion along with your proselytizing though,and I agree with you on that point. Parents should not raise their children with values they do not embrace themselves. Kids see right through that.

To proselytize someone means to try to convince them to adopt your beliefs. I have done nothing of the sort. I don’t care whether or not the OP chooses to be catholic or episcopalian or anything else. But her views are already clearly protestant, and I didn’t say a word to convince her of the beliefs she already held before she got here. I merely suggested that she go to a church that conforms to what she believes. I never once suggested she go to my church, just not yours (because she clearly doesn’t believe the Catholic faith). That isn’t proselytizing. That was just good advise.

This is a non-catholic forum where we compare and contrast beliefs. I don’t believe I’ve crossed any lines but I feel I’ve worn out my welcome.