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Xantippe
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Exactly.
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mavdragon
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on_the_hill
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Right. But if staying together means you publicly place a scarlett letter on her for everyone to know about…you are committing a sin yourself.
Which is more acceptable to you? Living a life of misery, or divorcing with no hope of reconciliation and building a life as best you can?
It is worthy to continue to fuel this awful arrangement you have with her wherein you get to talk about her and she digs in her heels to make you suffer?
I do think there is something about dusting your sandals off when there is no hope of conversion.
Either the situation is fixable or it isn’t.
It’s really not that hard. It’s been 2 years. If 10 priests and some marriage counselors have not been able to help you fix it, is it irreparable? Or is only your wife unwilling to get it fixed?
There’s not really any option except to accept it and move on, or stay there and keep your mouth shut about it.
Trashing her to your friends and strangers on the internet, again, is not going to make her view you favorably, and will not be conducive to a reconciliation.
It appears SHE has made her decision.
And these responses are neither hostile nor unsympathetic. They are expressing reality.
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pianistclare
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pianistclare;13210022:
If she asked me about this thread I would have no problem with her reading all of my posts. She already has decided to view me unfavorably, and It arguably has nothing to do with my actions. (by this I mean her non-acceptance of me I believe primarily has come from the very act of adultery she committed. Then she started to look at her memory of the past and began to re-write our history remembering everything I possibly could have done to wrong her in order to justify what she had done.) This is very common for betrayers according to books I have read on this subject by people who have way more experience with this that I do.
Sadly I have to agree with this statement. But what gives me hope is that she has to continue making this decision every minute of every day. I have to continue to make the decision to love her even though she continues to make this decision. What typically wins? Love or Hate? Did Jesus win or did Satan? Contrary to popular opinion Women can change their mind. Will this one? God only knows. I will be sure to post here if she does.
I can only go by what YOU have written.
You spoke to a number of priests. YOU said that.
Is a priest a confessor? Was he just a casual friend? Does it matter?
You have not heard the answer you want.
What is it exactly that you want to know, and how exactly do you think you will accomplish that end?
If I’m making stuff up…then you are as well.
We get our info about YOUR marriage from you.
Good luck.
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Still_Hoping
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I think the OP is in dire need of a male figure who was or is in the same situation. I wonder if there are any group therapy meetings for this. Either that or start a group here at CAF for husbands and/or wives who are still married to their adulterous spouses. Maybe the OP might get the answers he is looking for.
Mavdragon, in your original post you mentioned that your relationship improved greatly with your two younger children. What about your eldest?
Mavdragon, in your original post you mentioned that your relationship improved greatly with your two younger children. What about your eldest?
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Still_Hoping
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I agree but in this situation, the OP followed the counsel in Matt 18. Therefore, he should make it plain what has happened and if things are going to get fixed, the wife has to step up to the plate.
I chose to believe in marriage and my husband and I are still together. Do I regret it? Sometimes, and only because he never apologized and because it caused great grief to our children especially my eldest. I feel embittered by this indignation which I carry. I pray for God to free me completely, and He is helping me and as such, my husband is deeply devoted to me. The OP may dissolve the threat of divorce and convince the wife to remain married. However, if she never apologizes, the OP has to accept this.
Forgiveness and compassion are great gifts but they should free us not chain us. False compassion can be risky. We, as mature Christians must be discerning (not always easy). All I can say is go with your gut and if the OP wants to stay, good but it will be challenging. I say he has the courage and the strength. God will put it in his heart if he should separate himself from his wife.
Blessings
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mavdragon
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My eldest is 17 and going thru normal teen age rebellion. normal stuf really.
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on_the_hill
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Which, apparently, evidently, ostensibly, the wife has absolutely no interest in doing. Which means it’s never going to be resolved. It’s not even a marriage at this point, just a painful living arrangement.
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Still_Hoping
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It seems that way but miracles can happen. Remember the prodigal son? If ever she comes back to her senses there would be more cause for joy than to sever the ties now and forever. I think that is what the OP is hoping for. Let us just pray for him and his family. Through prayer and intercession, even the lost can be found. I applaud the OP for his courage and persistence.
Mavdragon, if you are to pursue this path make sure you do not become embittered with regret, because dear brother, this is worse. You must find it in your heart to live through God’s grace even under these circumstances. She will frustrate you to no end but you must remain intact in body and mind and that means you don’t CONTROL her or DEMEAN her in any way. You must endure indignation and insult whether verbally or unspoken. This is your cross to carry and may the Lord help you till the end. As for the children, DO NOT fight in front of them nor be passive aggressive. Find activities to keep you and them busy and use your “pull statements” technique (or whatever it is) with your wife until she gets it. Be affirmative and gentle with her.
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Still_Hoping
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Really? I am glad to hear and this doesn’t affect him at all? And the younger ones?
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E_7
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Wow a whole month living chaste, after too much bad stuff recently, that is great! Please don’t give in, keep it up. And do not leave or she will take you the house and kids and bring her lover and son to your house! Don’t make it easy for her. I’m sorry you are having it really tough, but don’t be the one to give up the marriage. This is a heavy cross you carry, but try to find consolation in God, make Jesus your spouse. Fall in love with Jesus, make him happy . By loving Him, you are loving your wife and kids. Consult everything with God and ask His approval. Meditate. Keep persevering.
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mavdragon
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I have trouble determining if his attitude towards me and his mom are just normal rebellion or if he harbors some resentment towards one or both of us. When directly asked about it by me he said something like as long as we are all in the same house together, then i’m good.
All the children seem to appreciate that they still have mom and Dad in the same house, and are concerned about the distance between us, but still have hope that things can get better, and hope that things don’t get worse. They are still being loved by both of us to the degree that we can without the bond of love between us.
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mavdragon
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Still hoping, thank you for the encouragement and advice. I am making attempt to do all these things you mention here. It is not as easy as just deciding to do them. It takes a lot of work and stretches me often. I fall and I get back up, again I fall and I get back up.
last night I found a small bag with a couple of glass cups and some ceramic salt and pepper shakers that we had received from her aunt for xmas one year. I took them out and showed them to her and put them out on the kitchen table. She told me they were a gift to her alone and a family heirloom, depression glass, and proceeded to put them back into the packing paper and to put them away again. This glass meant nothing to me, and I didn’t care what she did with them. She made such a big fuss over these pieces of glass, and seemed offended that I had taken them out of their packaging. I felt hurt that this glass was so important to her, but our family was not. I proceeded to tell her that she cared more about that glass than our family. I then went back to me room to go to sleep for the night and she comes into my bedroom turns the light on and is looking for a piece of paper that came with the glass that was proof I guess of what she was saying about how it belonged to her alone and proof of the extra value of the glass. I pointed to where it was and asked her to please leave the room, please turn off the light, and please close my door. I’m not really proud of my response, and it is not in line with what you just mentioned.
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Still_Hoping
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I know exactly what you are feeling. Don’t be so hard on yourself, if you realize you said something in a harsh tone just say “i meant…” in a gentle tone. If she doesn’t appreciate it then at least you have your conscience clean.
Mavdragon, falling is normal getting back up is courage. Don’t quit. I am praying for you.
I am so happy that your children are ok. Just love them the best you can. I am going through things and I feel like there is a battle to wage and be won. I fell this morning and asked the power of the Holy Spirit to guide me because there is a lot at stake. I know how you feel. I too feel like a doormat, but this morning the Lord showed me how to be assertive and loving. We humans tend to become aggressive/defensive when we want to prove our point. The Lord showed me that I must remain calm, but take my stance, to be merciful but not to give in to threats. I am anxious a lot but the Lord knows best. Did He not promise us He will give us what we ask for in His name? Will He not deliver us from evil? You and I know He will be with us if we remain faithful and hopeful. God bless.
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Still_Hoping
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Now I understand your determination even more. The children are ok then you should be ok. Time will heal all things and the Lord knows best when. Just keep praying and believing that the Lord will bring back your wife. BELIEVE. As I said, she will frustrate to no end and this is mostly because some evil force has a hold on her. Pray for it to be broken.
Dear brother, we must endure, so offer it up to the Lord, all your pain, bitterness, weakness, anxiety, anger etc. It is so tough, I can’t tell you how many times I still fail. It is only when I am before the cross that I realize what I must endure and it becomes bearable because of my Lord’s promise and His suffering. May the Lord grant us His mercy so that we may imitate Him and cast all fears and evil away. Amen.
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Evania
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Consider checking this out: divorcebusting.com
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hydin
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Your last statement is one that is popular but usually followed by “if otherwise in a state of Grace.” Sounds great until you really look at what a Catholic who divorces must do. Divorce is Grave Matter = Mortal sin according to the CCC 2384
Divorce is a grave offense (just DIVORCE mentioned) against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: (1650)
Notice that remarriage "ADDS to the gravity …). Divorce for selfish reasons, irreconcilable differences, not happy, deserve better any condition not approved by clergy…wisdom here by the church, to avoid false claims of abuse. Abuse should never be tolerated and is cause for SEPARATION with the expectation of RECONCILING when the danger is removed…) I won’t repeat every line because it is all listed earlier in this thread. if you did not follow church teaching on Divorce you are in danger of Mortal Sin. CCC mentions innocent party, other must be guilty! Hard but true. Canon Law also is strict on divorce/separation. If you ignore it or say you didn’t know you are still culpable since it is a moral issue… not knowing in cases of moral issues does not take away mortal sin. See developing conscience in CCC. See earlier post for details… if you are reading this then you now know and are responsible for getting in line with this teaching… refusing to do so means you are not repenting… your sin is not forgiven and all other sins await forgiveness until this sin is dealt with … sorry church teaching…
As is common today you jump from one extreme to the other - divorce or stay married and get abused… Would I want a person who is truly abused to remain married? Yes and if you are Catholic you would too… but I would want them to be Separated with the Bond Remaining (unless the marriage is found to never have existed and a decree of nullity granted), as is the only option for a valid sacramental marriage in our church. I also realize that only 1-2% of marriages fall under the dangerous category… look for real research and it NEVER mentions the % of marriages… just stats concerning once abuse (which is horrible… and thank God rare…) has taken place.
Sorry for the detour in this thread but so many speak on divorce and the Eucharist and have no idea what the true teaching is. Priest’s and others do not help much when they do not take on the subject head on and include the “qualifier” as long as they are in a state of Grace… etc. Got a question? Look it up at the usccb site. Canon Law and the CCC are very clear. Also check out reconciliation and how that affects the state of Grace. If you spouse wishes to reconcile, as the church always expects, when danger is removed, and you refuse… not forgiven… If you broke up a Sacramental Marriage and believe it is “what God wanted”… look at this story of God’s expectation of the spouse… see Hosea, chap 1. If you divorced and did not follow Church teaching check with a knowledgeable Priest before assuming you are in a state of Grace… our personal opinions do not matter, see the CCC on moral conscience…
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hydin
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mavdragon, the falling back has got to stop. I realize how tough it is to stay focused on the goal. Every movement and word that is not headed at your goal of renewing and resurrecting your marriage. Know that while it makes sense to you to react as you have (and it is perfectly normal… but normal is not working for you…) your wife also sees the fall and it makes perfect sense to her… you have not changed. It really sucks that it is this way. Yes a spouse should understand for example… not factual… that their spouse is only doing the thing that drove them crazy and justified their actions 1 time a month versus the 3 times a day it used to occur. Unfortunately her Lizard brain reacts like it was a year ago… there it is… danger… with no qualifiers. Really is unfair but it is human to look for those facts that support your actions… “see he hasn’t really changed…” It soothes her soul to see that one slip.
In her mind that one time proves she is right…
So, actionable stuff to try - when you do slip up as soon as you realize your slip go to her. Tell her what you did specifically, that is was wrong, that you are working to fix it. and ask for forgiveness - (don’t hate me… eye on the goal… it is unfair… it is also your only hope. She will not comeback to the old spouse…) Number two… what she is doing makes sense to her… (everyone makes sense all the time… alturtle.com… at least to themselves) It makes no difference if it doesn’t make sense to you… NONE. If you slip and tell her it doesn’t make sense you are telling her she is wrong, that you know the right way. You have your truth and she has hers… to her the truth she sees is real and is “the truth”. You have to do those things that make her challenge “her truth”. She must start to doubt “her Truth”, which will cause her to reevaluate her actions toward you and your marriage. You can do nothing to change her or make her see your truth… She has to see things and trust things that challenge her truth. Your focus of all discussions is you. I feel (not you make me feel… no one can make you feel anything… you choose to feel), I felt like, it makes me sad when I hear, it makes me scared when… I worry that. No YOU no when you do … or when you say… (when I hear… I feel… - does not blame her for your feelings… since they do not make sense to her anyway… gives you ownership of them, no her)
As far as packing things… one move you need to make very quickly, without her knowing if possible, is to get copies of all important documents (taxes, bank stuff credit card stuff, take photos of all rooms showing stuff that is in them (use newpaper showing date in the photo to show when taken). As far as property is concerned… property given to you as a couple and/or used by you as a couple is common property, no matter the history… exceptions in most states are inheritance if not mingled into marital assets. Any money that is deposited into a joint account becomes joint the second it hits in most states, no matter what the claim is. "Google “the list” for a great list of actions a guy should take if divorce is even possible. You are working two paths… one of the heart… get your wife back and one that is a pure business transaction, preparing for the worst. You must do this… if she files you get 30 days to respond… if she has all the info you are not going to make that date… if you rush and leave something off then you could lose it (see, it was not important to him…) It hurts to do this when hoping… I lived it. But it is a loving act to you and your kids future. Always be more than fair to you wife but being foolish will not be seen by her as love… Divorce is business, it contains no love… Hope and pray for the best but prepare for the worst…
The statement by you child shows his situation more than you may realize. He is glad you are both in the house… but wonders everyday if that will be the last day. Let them know you realize how tough this is on them and reassure them it has nothing to do with them. That you and your wife love them the same as always… this is just an issue between your wife and you… unfortunately you can’t protect them from it. pledge to never ask them about your wife, and give them permission to tell you "I don’t feel comfortable answering that… or to otherwise avoid what “they” see as a tough conversation. She will always be their Mom… help them see her in the best light possible (they see the bad stuff, you do not need to keep telling them). Be their rock. You were told what they want… it is what you also want… eye on the goal for both of you. Never tell her what they want… she knows… Your will to do anything necessary to save your marriage will be tested at every turn and harder than you can imagine. You deserve better. You can’t make her give “better” to you… but you can be better…
Remind yourself each day… Best today, better tomorrow. You are doing well. Do not lose heart…you will be tested. It is unfair. Of course unfair simply doesn’t matter. When you start to think about how things should be, what your wife should do, what your friends should do… what they should think? Even if you are exactly right… watch this clip …laugh but also realize it is true… Trust, pray… trust more… bill murray Meatballs… youtube.com/watch?v=-TogGxzlfhM
In her mind that one time proves she is right…
So, actionable stuff to try - when you do slip up as soon as you realize your slip go to her. Tell her what you did specifically, that is was wrong, that you are working to fix it. and ask for forgiveness - (don’t hate me… eye on the goal… it is unfair… it is also your only hope. She will not comeback to the old spouse…) Number two… what she is doing makes sense to her… (everyone makes sense all the time… alturtle.com… at least to themselves) It makes no difference if it doesn’t make sense to you… NONE. If you slip and tell her it doesn’t make sense you are telling her she is wrong, that you know the right way. You have your truth and she has hers… to her the truth she sees is real and is “the truth”. You have to do those things that make her challenge “her truth”. She must start to doubt “her Truth”, which will cause her to reevaluate her actions toward you and your marriage. You can do nothing to change her or make her see your truth… She has to see things and trust things that challenge her truth. Your focus of all discussions is you. I feel (not you make me feel… no one can make you feel anything… you choose to feel), I felt like, it makes me sad when I hear, it makes me scared when… I worry that. No YOU no when you do … or when you say… (when I hear… I feel… - does not blame her for your feelings… since they do not make sense to her anyway… gives you ownership of them, no her)
As far as packing things… one move you need to make very quickly, without her knowing if possible, is to get copies of all important documents (taxes, bank stuff credit card stuff, take photos of all rooms showing stuff that is in them (use newpaper showing date in the photo to show when taken). As far as property is concerned… property given to you as a couple and/or used by you as a couple is common property, no matter the history… exceptions in most states are inheritance if not mingled into marital assets. Any money that is deposited into a joint account becomes joint the second it hits in most states, no matter what the claim is. "Google “the list” for a great list of actions a guy should take if divorce is even possible. You are working two paths… one of the heart… get your wife back and one that is a pure business transaction, preparing for the worst. You must do this… if she files you get 30 days to respond… if she has all the info you are not going to make that date… if you rush and leave something off then you could lose it (see, it was not important to him…) It hurts to do this when hoping… I lived it. But it is a loving act to you and your kids future. Always be more than fair to you wife but being foolish will not be seen by her as love… Divorce is business, it contains no love… Hope and pray for the best but prepare for the worst…
The statement by you child shows his situation more than you may realize. He is glad you are both in the house… but wonders everyday if that will be the last day. Let them know you realize how tough this is on them and reassure them it has nothing to do with them. That you and your wife love them the same as always… this is just an issue between your wife and you… unfortunately you can’t protect them from it. pledge to never ask them about your wife, and give them permission to tell you "I don’t feel comfortable answering that… or to otherwise avoid what “they” see as a tough conversation. She will always be their Mom… help them see her in the best light possible (they see the bad stuff, you do not need to keep telling them). Be their rock. You were told what they want… it is what you also want… eye on the goal for both of you. Never tell her what they want… she knows… Your will to do anything necessary to save your marriage will be tested at every turn and harder than you can imagine. You deserve better. You can’t make her give “better” to you… but you can be better…
Remind yourself each day… Best today, better tomorrow. You are doing well. Do not lose heart…you will be tested. It is unfair. Of course unfair simply doesn’t matter. When you start to think about how things should be, what your wife should do, what your friends should do… what they should think? Even if you are exactly right… watch this clip …laugh but also realize it is true… Trust, pray… trust more… bill murray Meatballs… youtube.com/watch?v=-TogGxzlfhM
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pianistclare
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