'Staying the Course' Won't Do by Patrick J. Buchanan

[Brad]

jlw:

Well, Pat’s wrong. That’s all.

Pat’s been rapidly losing his marbles the past few years. Not sure what happened to him.

 

[St.James]

Nichevo:

What will you respond to? Another attack here that kills thousands? Do you understand what is at stake here? Do you understand the scale and scope of the jihad being waged against us?

I understand that the concept of “preemptive war” is ends justifies the means reasoning and is the complete antithesis to Catholic thinking.

Nichevo:

There have been others who’ve held your point of view…

Yes, and among them are St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. I prefer their reasoning to yours.

 

[gilliam]

St. James:

I understand that the concept of “preemptive war” is ends justifies the means reasoning and is the complete antithesis to Catholic thinking.

Then you misunderstand.

Preemption is simply stopping someone from doing something before they do it. For example, if you know someone is preparing to beat up your 5 year old child, you don’t wait until after they beat him up to put a stop to it. That is preemption.

If you know someone is plotting to do your country great harm, like we did with Iraq (remember the Russians and others warned us of Saddam’s intention to attack the US), you put a stop to it before it happens.

By the way, this is in line with the teachings of both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Peacemonger]

gilliam:

Then you misunderstand.

Preemption is simply stopping someone from doing something before they do it. For example, if you know someone is preparing to beat up your 5 year old child, you don’t wait until after they beat him up to put a stop to it. That is preemption.

If you know someone is plotting to do your country great harm, like we did with Iraq (remember the Russians and others warned us of Saddam’s intention to attack the US), you put a stop to it before it happens.

By the way, this is in line with the teachings of both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Saddam was NOT about to attack the US. What was he gonna do? Launch a scud missle accross the ocean?

 

[St.James]

gilliam:

Then you misunderstand.

Preemption is simply stopping someone from doing something before they do it. For example, if you know someone is preparing to beat up your 5 year old child, you don’t wait until after they beat him up to put a stop to it. That is preemption.

And dropping bombs on that child, the child’s family, the child’s neighbors, taking and destroying their property simply because you feel that child may beat up your child are all warranted according to St Thomas Aquinas?

I’m afraid that it’s you that misunderstand.

 

[mlchance]

St. James:

And dropping bombs on that child, the child’s family, the child’s neighbors, taking and destroying their property are all warranted according to St Thomas Aquinas?

No, it isn’t warranted. That’s why the U.S. military (unlike the terrorists we are fighting) doesn’t deliberately target noncombatants.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[ToddC]

Peacemonger,

I totally understand your anti-war stance, and part of me agrees with you. However, in a democracy, we defer power to our elected leaders. They have more information about National Security and military intelligence than we do. I think it is funny, in an ironic way, that everyone blames Bush and not Congress, which gave him carte blanche power to go to war. Bush is using the pre-emption doctrine to safeguard the country. In a post-911 world, this make sense. This type of policy works on a national level, but goes against what we believe as Catholics on a personal level. Christian ways of living and dealing with others work on a personal level. “Love your enemy” will only get you attacked more by those intent on hurting you.

With respect to getting us out of Iraq, yes, let’s get out after elections are held and the elected government will have a good chance of defending itself without the country sliding into civil war. Let’s ‘stay the course.’

Peace

ToddC

 

[gilliam]

Peacemonger:

Saddam was NOT about to attack the US. What was he gonna do? Launch a scud missle accross the ocean?

Russia’s secret service had information on more than one occasion that Iraq was preparing acts of terror in the US and its facilities worldwide.

 

[St.James]

mlchance:

No, it isn’t warranted. That’s why the U.S. military (unlike the terrorists we are fighting) doesn’t deliberately target noncombatants.

– Mark L. Chance.

700 Civilian Bodies Recovered From Fallujah
Dec 28, 2004

Emergency teams from the Fallujah Hospital have recovered 700 bodies of Iraqis from the ruins of houses destroyed in the US offensive on the city. Among the 700 bodies were 504 bodies of women and children; the rest elderly and middle aged men.

Dr. Tamir Salih al-‘Ani, who is in charge of the morgue in Fallujah General Hospital has reported that emergency teams from the Fallujah Hospital have recovered 700 bodies of Iraqis from the ruins of houses destroyed in the course of the US aggressors’ offensive on the city. Dr. Salih confirmed that among the 700 bodies were 504 bodies of women and children. The rest are the bodies of elderly and middle aged men.

Dr. Salih explained that the bodies were dug out from the ruins on the streets of Fallujah, recovered from rooftops, and dug out of gardens. Many of the dead perished in barbarous ways, their bodies burned by American chemical weapons. A number of others had been stabbed. The body of one woman showed that she had been bayoneted in her thigh, chest, and head.

Mafkarat al-Islam’s correspondent reported that these findings were the result of work done in just six of Fallujah’s neighborhoods. There are in all 27 residential neighborhoods in the city. The death toll is therefore constantly rising as there are still large numbers of reports of buried bodies on which the medical teams have not yet had a chance to follow up.

 

[ToddC]

700 Civilian Bodies Recovered From Fallujah
Dec 28, 2004

Emergency teams from the Fallujah Hospital have recovered 700 bodies of Iraqis from the ruins of houses destroyed in the US offensive on the city. Among the 700 bodies were 504 bodies of women and children; the rest elderly and middle aged men.

Dr. Tamir Salih al-‘Ani, who is in charge of the morgue in Fallujah General Hospital has reported that emergency teams from the Fallujah Hospital have recovered 700 bodies of Iraqis from the ruins of houses destroyed in the course of the US aggressors’ offensive on the city. Dr. Salih confirmed that among the 700 bodies were 504 bodies of women and children. The rest are the bodies of elderly and middle aged men.

Dr. Salih explained that the bodies were dug out from the ruins on the streets of Fallujah, recovered from rooftops, and dug out of gardens. Many of the dead perished in barbarous ways, their bodies burned by American chemical weapons. A number of others had been stabbed. The body of one woman showed that she had been bayoneted in her thigh, chest, and head.

Mafkarat al-Islam’s correspondent reported that these findings were the result of work done in just six of Fallujah’s neighborhoods. There are in all 27 residential neighborhoods in the city. The death toll is therefore constantly rising as there are still large numbers of reports of buried bodies on which the medical teams have not yet had a chance to follow up.

From what source did this come? American chemical weapons? The US military would NOT be using WMD against anyone.

 

[gilliam]

700 Civilian Bodies Recovered From Fallujah
Dec 28, 2004

Emergency teams from the Fallujah Hospital have recovered 700 bodies of Iraqis from the ruins of houses destroyed in the US offensive on the city. Among the 700 bodies were 504 bodies of women and children; the rest elderly and middle aged men.

Dr. Tamir Salih al-‘Ani, who is in charge of the morgue in Fallujah General Hospital has reported that emergency teams from the Fallujah Hospital have recovered 700 bodies of Iraqis from the ruins of houses destroyed in the course of the US aggressors’ offensive on the city. Dr. Salih confirmed that among the 700 bodies were 504 bodies of women and children. The rest are the bodies of elderly and middle aged men.

Dr. Salih explained that the bodies were dug out from the ruins on the streets of Fallujah, recovered from rooftops, and dug out of gardens. Many of the dead perished in barbarous ways, their bodies burned by American chemical weapons. A number of others had been stabbed. The body of one woman showed that she had been bayoneted in her thigh, chest, and head.

Mafkarat al-Islam’s correspondent reported that these findings were the result of work done in just six of Fallujah’s neighborhoods. There are in all 27 residential neighborhoods in the city. The death toll is therefore constantly rising as there are still large numbers of reports of buried bodies on which the medical teams have not yet had a chance to follow up.

Isn’t Mafkarat al-Islam a terrorist newspaper that has ‘inbeds’ with the terrorists and sides with the terrorists?

Maybe it is accurate and maybe it isn’t. These guys reported all kinds of erronious numbers in the past. Sorry, but in the past the Fallujah Hospital had many terrorist sympathisors in it. But considering it was a city of over 100,000 citizens that was overrun, it would seem to me to be an extremely low number of civilian casualties. I can’t remember any other city in the history of warfare that was overrun with the kind of fighting that went on in Fallujah (terrorists hinding behind civilians and shooting from civilian homes) where the civilian losses were so small. It shows the US really tried to keep the civilian casulties down.

 

[mlchance]

700 Civilian Bodies Recovered From Fallujah
Dec 28, 2004

If true, indeed horrible. But note what I said and what you’ve not refuted: The U.S. military does not deliberately target noncombatants.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[HagiaSophia]

St. James:

Many of the dead perished in barbarous ways, their bodies burned by American chemical weapons. A number of others had been stabbed. The body of one woman showed that she had been bayoneted in her thigh, chest, and head.

I will point out two other examples of “reporting” here and let you derive your own conclusions:

It is being published in last week’s paper that Americans are stealing the organs of Iraqis. this week they reported that the coalition forces are taking the “eyes” of children.

Two civilians found seriously bayoneted and stabbed in their homes, reported that the insurgents as they took their leave after taking over the homes, killed the family members as they left. Men, women and children.

 

[St.James]

mlchance:

If true, indeed horrible. But note what I said and what you’ve not refuted: The U.S. military does not deliberately target noncombatants.

– Mark L. Chance.

I know that the US military claims not to deliberately target non-combatants, but I make no claims as to knowing what their true intent is.

However, I can examine evidence and draw conclusions from it.

 

[mlchance]

St. James:

I know that the US military claims not to deliberately target non-combatants, but I make no claims as to knowing what their true intent is.

However, I can examine evidence and draw conclusions from it.

Ah, yes. “I don’t like the facts, so I’ll accuse people of lying.”



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[St.James]

mlchance:

Ah, yes. “I don’t like the facts, so I’ll accuse people of lying.”



– Mark L. Chance.

???

Is this a claim of ability to percieve the intent of other people through the internet?

 

[St.James]

mlchance:

If true, indeed horrible. But note what I said and what you’ve not refuted: The U.S. military does not deliberately target noncombatants.

– Mark L. Chance.

You’ve made the claim. Prove that the US military doesn’t deliberately target noncombatants, and you can accompany that proof with documentation of your ability to percieve the intent of people on other continents whom you’ve never met.

 

[mlchance]

St. James:

You’ve made the claim. Prove that the US military doesn’t deliberately target noncombatants, and you can accompany that proof with documentation of your ability to percieve the intent of people on other continents whom you’ve never met.

I’m sure you’re familiar with what is commonly said about trying to prove a negative. As for the rest of your demand, it makes no sense. Perhaps there’s been a misunderstanding. Let’s recap. You said:
St. James:

I know that the US military claims not to deliberately target non-combatants, but I make no claims as to knowing what their true intent is.

IOW, the claim itself isn’t enough. Perhaps not unreasonable.
St. James:

However, I can examine evidence and draw conclusions from it.

Next, in compensation for your inability to judge true intent (which you imply is different from stated intent), you claim you can examine evidence and draw conclusions from it. But: What evidence? You have no evidence that the U.S. military deliberately targets non-combatants. So what are we left with? Apparently nothing more than some sort of vague assertion that the U.S. military is lying.

Thus, it appears that since you don’t like the facts (i.e., the U.S. military doesn’t deliberately target non-combatants), you basically resort to veiled name-calling instead.

No, admittedly, maybe you didn’t imply what I inferred, but to then turn things into a snit demanding evidence for a negative proposition as well as a claim that I never made is a bit much.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[SHEMP]

I voted for Bush in 2004.

We cannot pull out of Iraq now.

In retrospect it is blatantly clear to me that going into Iraq was a big mistake. This was not clear to me at the time of the invasion. We should have listened to the Holy Father. Pat Buchanin is right on! He, however was saying this prior to the invasion! The neocons have Iraqi pie in their face. They just cannot admit it. Pat Buchanin and the Holy Father were right all along.

 

[gilliam]

SHEMP:

I voted for Bush in 2004.

We cannot pull out of Iraq now.

In retrospect it is blatantly clear to me that going into Iraq was a big mistake. This was not clear to me at the time of the invasion. We should have listened to the Holy Father. Pat Buchanin is right on! He, however was saying this prior to the invasion! The neocons have Iraqi pie in their face. They just cannot admit it. Pat Buchanin and the Holy Father were right all along.

No Pat is not right on. We cannot do what Pat wants now and run away from Iraq and leave the innocents in the hands of the terrorists.