Staying with the ELCA

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JohnnyReb said:
Age of concent is one thing that differenciates homosexuality from same sex pedophila. What makes it wrong for a man to have sex with a younger female, one that is not of age? Of course the difference in age.
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Moral relativism. Who/how is age of consent determined?
 
JohnnyReb said:
Age of concent is one thing that differenciates homosexuality from same sex pedophila. What makes it wrong for a man to have sex with a younger female, one that is not of age? Of course the difference in age.
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I made no reference to any ages. All of my posts in this thread thus far have assumed all parties are adults. I will explicitly state if otherwise.
 
This talk of the nature of sexual relations is always very interesting, but it is like jacking up a car and putting the pedal to the metal: lots is going on and getting nowhere.

The basic question is one of ecclesiology. We are all clear on the theology and in as much agreement as Lutherans can be. The question is how we choose our leaders and how we determine their qualifications. Either the answer is found in the Scriptures where Saint Paul, particularly, speaks to the issue, or some other method is used. The grounds I have heard argued is the WWJD argument, that Jesus, a known consort of sinners, would certainly have chosen homosexuals to lead His church. Even if one could grant that position, then how much weight does one put in the teachings of the Epistles?
 
qui_est_ce said:
Moral relativism. Who/how is age of consent determined?
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By the law, in interest in protecting children and those who are most likely to be too immature/not ready to accept sexual intercourse and its potential consequences. Its not moral relativism.
 
qui_est_ce said:
Great post.

More importantly, what would Jesus do? The Church doesn’t “invent” doctrines. It bases it’s teaching on the word of God. The Bible is very clear on the evils of fornication, adultery and same sex relations.
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Find the sources on fornication–which include men, please.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
The basic question is one of ecclesiology. We are all clear on the theology and in as much agreement as Lutherans can be. The question is how we choose our leaders and how we determine their qualifications. Either the answer is found in the Scriptures where Saint Paul, particularly, speaks to the issue, or some other method is used. The grounds I have heard argued is the WWJD argument, that Jesus, a known consort of sinners, would certainly have chosen homosexuals to lead His church. Even if one could grant that position, then how much weight does one put in the teachings of the Epistles?
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No he would not. He told sinners to sin no more. He asked them to turn their backs to their sinful WAYS of life.
 
1234 said:
Find the sources on fornication–which include men, please.
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Are you asking me to provide biblical sources for the evils of fornication?

I Cor

Corinthians
Chapter 5:
1
It is widely reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of a kind not found even among pagans–a man living with his father’s wife.
2
And you are inflated with pride. Should you not rather have been sorrowful? The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst.
3
I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed,
4
in the name of (our) Lord Jesus: when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus,
5
**you are to deliver this man to Satan **for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
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I Cor Chapter 7:
1
Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: “It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,”
2
but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
3
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Oldtimer_7 said:
This talk of the nature of sexual relations is always very interesting, but it is like jacking up a car and putting the pedal to the metal: lots is going on and getting nowhere.

The basic question is one of ecclesiology. We are all clear on the theology and in as much agreement as Lutherans can be. The question is how we choose our leaders and how we determine their qualifications. Either the answer is found in the Scriptures where Saint Paul, particularly, speaks to the issue, or some other method is used. **The grounds I have heard argued is the WWJD argument, that Jesus, a known consort of sinners, would certainly have chosen homosexuals to lead His church. **Even if one could grant that position, then how much weight does one put in the teachings of the Epistles?
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Regarding this position, I would say that, yes, hypothetically, He might have chosen homosexuals, and there most certainly have been homosexuals in the clegy throughout the life of the Church, who have served Him well. But He would expect homosexuals to abide by His law, just as He does heterosexuals.
The issue then, for me, with the Churchwide assembly’s decision is that it sets a double standard -that being homosexuals living in a “committed relationship” may serve as clergy (as if that is not sin), but a heterosexual living in a “committed relationship” that is not marriage (also sin), may not. A single clergyman, heterosexual or homosexual, must be chaste.
As you seem to point out, it is best to choose our leaders based on the Epistles, and disregard current societal moral standards.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Regarding this position, I would say that, yes, hypothetically, He might have chosen homosexuals, and there most certainly have been homosexuals in the clegy throughout the life of the Church, who have served Him well. But He would expect homosexuals to abide by His law, just as He does heterosexuals.
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Why is the person’s sexual orientation even brought up. I don’t stand around claiming I’m a heterosexual. I don’t identify myself by my sexual orientation, many homosexuals do.
The issue then, for me, with the Churchwide assembly’s decision is that it sets a double standard -that being homosexuals living in a “committed relationship” may serve as clergy (as if that is not sin), but a heterosexual living in a “committed relationship” that is not marriage (also sin), may not. A single clergyman, heterosexual or homosexual, must be chaste.
As you seem to point out, it is best to choose our leaders based on the Epistles, and disregard current societal moral standards.
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Jon
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WOW, that’s very interesting.
 
loneviking said:
Oldtimer, you’re rationalizing the support of sin. You cannot reform ELCA from within as the seminaries are where these heresies are being taught. You cannot reform from within when the local bylaws are changed to conform with the national assembly. I know about these things as I’m a former SDA and I know folks who have tried what you think you want to attempt! Every attempt at reform that I’ve met within a denomination, once the tipping point is reached of accepting homsexuality as a ‘Christian’ behavior, has failed.
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Do all Lutherans attend the same seminaries? Are there different seminaries for the various Lutheran Confessions?
Would Concordia Seminary in St. Louis ordain a minister for ELCA?
 
qui_est_ce said:
Do all Lutherans attend the same seminaries? Are there different seminaries for the various Lutheran Confessions?
Would Concordia Seminary in St. Louis ordain a minister for ELCA?
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Not that I’m aware of. There are numerous ELCA sems, and the LCMS has two. I don’t know about WELS, and I also don’t know the process for transfer from one synod to another, though I’m sure there is one.
Why is the person’s sexual orientation even brought up. I don’t stand around claiming I’m a heterosexual. I don’t identify myself by my sexual orientation, many homosexuals do
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I agree, and that’s why my POV is that behaviors are important, not predispositions.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Not that I’m aware of. There are numerous ELCA sems, and the LCMS has two. I don’t know about WELS, and I also don’t know the process for transfer from one synod to another, though I’m sure there is one.

Jon
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Well then the term “Lutheran” is meaningless. You have to add, LCMS, ELCA, etc. onto your denomination. ELCA and LCMS/WELS are completely incompatible. I wonder how these compare with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany.
 
qui_est_ce said:
Well then the term “Lutheran” is meaningless. You have to add, LCMS, ELCA, etc. onto your denomination. ELCA and LCMS/WELS are completely incompatible. I wonder how these compare with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany.
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Completely incompatible? We have some issues with the ELCA and some other Lutheran synods in the world that have moved toward female ordination, and the like, but I wouldn’t describe it as you have. I would suspect that Pastor Gary and I have beliefs so similar as to be indistinguishable. He is ELCA, I am LCMS. He and I are both confessional Lutherans.

Jon
 
We have had a supply pastor who was LCMS long enough to get a pension from them. The basic Lutheran tenets are not that different in the different bodies, it is the application of them that varies. I was baptized in the Evangeliche Kirche Deutschland. They are wrestling with installing a gay bishop.

I find it offensive that our call committees have to deal with the question of sexual orientation at all, and our pastors have to include such statements on their mobility papers. It sounds like an old singles column in a newspaper (remember those? Another casualty of the Internet). Straight Lutheran pastor seeking LTR with a congregation. Love long walks on the beach at sunset and Real Presence. Pass me a pina colada.

Actually, there is no double standard. As one single ELCA pastor noted, it is now OK for him to shack up with his girlfriend. Lord, give me strength!
 
=Oldtimer_7;6894278]We have had a supply pastor who was LCMS long enough to get a pension from them. The basic Lutheran tenets are not that different in the different bodies, it is the application of them that varies. I was baptized in the Evangeliche Kirche Deutschland. They are wrestling with installing a gay bishop.
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I think that’s basically correct.
I find it offensive that our call committees have to deal with the question of sexual orientation at all, and our pastors have to include such statements on their mobility papers. It sounds like an old singles column in a newspaper (remember those? Another casualty of the Internet). Straight Lutheran pastor seeking LTR with a congregation. Love long walks on the beach at sunset and Real Presence. Pass me a pina colada.
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If it weren’t so sad, it would be funny.
Actually, there is no double standard. As one single ELCA pastor noted, it is now OK for him to shack up with his girlfriend. Lord, give me strength!
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This was not my understanding, but based on the fact I cannot put my hands on a citation at the moment, I will concede the point. Actually, if you are right, then the ELCA’s policies are far worse and more scandalous than I thought. And how does this converge with:
“We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone,…”

Jon
 
Glory to Jesus Christ!

From my perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever to remain in communion with someone who teaches contrary to what my church teaches. It’s pure relativism and it’s this same relativism that is leading to the breakdown of our society. The whole “you do what’s ‘right’ for you and I’ll do what’s ‘right’ for me and we’ll be happy together” nonsense that has been plaguing Western Civilization for the past 50 years is now taking hold of Protestant sectarians, yet most of them do not even care and even try to justify it. :eek: I find that to be insanity. 😦 The ones that actually stand for something become Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

Today it is the ordination of practicing homosexuals and women, tomorrow they will be denying more Christian truths. How long before the ELCA or any other Lutheran sect starts denying the Resurrection, the Virgin Birth, or other “essentials?” There are portions of the ECUSA have clergy that are “bi-religious” (claiming to practice Christianity with another religion and it is in full harmony with their Christianity) without any uproar from the wider denomination–at least that I have seen. How much longer will it take before these groups are completely indistinguishable from pure paganism?

How long will it take before the people that justify their staying with the ELCA leave when they abandon more of Christianity in favor of blatant paganism? I don’t say this with any ounce of malice at all, but with Christian love for those who are seeing their beloved communions disintegrate before their eyes. I will say it again: if you believe and know that your church is teaching and promoting such vile beliefs, leave. Leave for the good of your soul. By staying you accept it. Too few people have integrity today to stand up for Christian truths. Those that reject the newly adopted beliefs of the ELCA can change that.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
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