Staying with the ELCA

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qui_est_ce said:
Well then the term “Lutheran” is meaningless. You have to add, LCMS, ELCA, etc. onto your denomination. ELCA and LCMS/WELS are completely incompatible. I wonder how these compare with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Germany.
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Actually, WELS/LCMS are not incompatible. My current LCMS pastor was extended a call to a WELS parish when he graduated from seminary, and that was back in the 50’s. LCMS is in both pulpit and altar fellowship with synods and groups in Europe and Eastern Europe.

The problem with ELCA begins with ELCA’s approach to the inspiration of the Bible. They believe that the Bible contains Gods’ word but not that it IS Gods’ word. The LCMS does not accept that and approaches the text in a much different manner. The ELCA basically has a ‘well, that text really doesn’t have to mean that’…which is how they wound up ordaining women and now homosexuals. There’s just no way to harmonize the two positions.

But with WELS/LCMS, we have the same approach to the Scriptures and to the confessions, so it’s possible to go back and forth.
 
loneviking said:
Actually, WELS/LCMS are not incompatible. My current LCMS pastor was extended a call to a WELS parish when he graduated from seminary, and that was back in the 50’s. LCMS is in both pulpit and altar fellowship with synods and groups in Europe and Eastern Europe.

The problem with ELCA begins with ELCA’s approach to the inspiration of the Bible. They believe that the Bible contains Gods’ word but not that it IS Gods’ word. The LCMS does not accept that and approaches the text in a much different manner. The ELCA basically has a ‘well, that text really doesn’t have to mean that’…which is how they wound up ordaining women and now homosexuals. There’s just no way to harmonize the two positions.

But with WELS/LCMS, we have the same approach to the Scriptures and to the confessions, so it’s possible to go back and forth.
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That’s what I thought, and that’s why I wrote ELCA and LCMS/WES are incompatible. Lutheran should really put which synod they belong to in their profile.
 
Harpazo said:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

From my perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever to remain in communion with someone who teaches contrary to what my church teaches. It’s pure relativism and it’s this same relativism that is leading to the breakdown of our society. The whole “you do what’s ‘right’ for you and I’ll do what’s ‘right’ for me and we’ll be happy together” nonsense that has been plaguing Western Civilization for the past 50 years is now taking hold of Protestant sectarians, yet most of them do not even care and even try to justify it. :eek: I find that to be insanity. 😦 The ones that actually stand for something become Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

Today it is the ordination of practicing homosexuals and women, tomorrow they will be denying more Christian truths. How long before the ELCA or any other Lutheran sect starts denying the Resurrection, the Virgin Birth, or other “essentials?” There are portions of the ECUSA have clergy that are “bi-religious” (claiming to practice Christianity with another religion and it is in full harmony with their Christianity) without any uproar from the wider denomination–at least that I have seen. How much longer will it take before these groups are completely indistinguishable from pure paganism?

How long will it take before the people that justify their staying with the ELCA leave when they abandon more of Christianity in favor of blatant paganism? I don’t say this with any ounce of malice at all, but with Christian love for those who are seeing their beloved communions disintegrate before their eyes. I will say it again: if you believe and know that your church is teaching and promoting such vile beliefs, leave. Leave for the good of your soul. By staying you accept it. Too few people have integrity today to stand up for Christian truths. Those that reject the newly adopted beliefs of the ELCA can change that.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Andrew, there is a lot of truth in what you write. While there are “supermarket” Catholics who practice earth worship, don’t understand male only priesthood, who don’t see the sin in homosexual acts, extramarital sex, etc. these go against the TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church. No bishop could randomly announce ordination of women and expect to stay bishop. As a Catholics, we are discouraged to parish shop. You should belong to your local parish. It’s not about the priest, it’s about the worship in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. In St. Louis, we do have “personal” parishes for population groups: Polish, German, Spanish, and Vietnamese. We have a parish dedicated to the TLM.

I’m really glad we can discuss this issue. Imagine “Staying with ELCA” on a Catholic Forum!! Anyway, this thread is helping me be more charitable with ELCA. It helps me get an inkling of the hurt its members are going through. It is difficult for me to understand why one would stay in a church that is so full of error. But I can see some have hope, however faint.

Keeping you in my prayers.
 
Harpazo said:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

From my perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever to remain in communion with someone who teaches contrary to what my church teaches. It’s pure relativism and it’s this same relativism that is leading to the breakdown of our society. The whole “you do what’s ‘right’ for you and I’ll do what’s ‘right’ for me and we’ll be happy together” nonsense that has been plaguing Western Civilization for the past 50 years is now taking hold of Protestant sectarians, yet most of them do not even care and even try to justify it. :eek: I find that to be insanity. 😦 The ones that actually stand for something become Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

Today it is the ordination of practicing homosexuals and women, tomorrow they will be denying more Christian truths. How long before the ELCA or any other Lutheran sect starts denying the Resurrection, the Virgin Birth, or other “essentials?” There are portions of the ECUSA have clergy that are “bi-religious” (claiming to practice Christianity with another religion and it is in full harmony with their Christianity) without any uproar from the wider denomination–at least that I have seen. How much longer will it take before these groups are completely indistinguishable from pure paganism?

How long will it take before the people that justify their staying with the ELCA leave when they abandon more of Christianity in favor of blatant paganism? I don’t say this with any ounce of malice at all, but with Christian love for those who are seeing their beloved communions disintegrate before their eyes. I will say it again: if you believe and know that your church is teaching and promoting such vile beliefs, leave. Leave for the good of your soul. By staying you accept it. Too few people have integrity today to stand up for Christian truths. Those that reject the newly adopted beliefs of the ELCA can change that.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
I highlighted one sentence in your post in red, as I want readers to know that, through my experince with you, I believe this is exactly the truth.

I think every ELCA Lutheran here is going through the thought process you have described here. I pray for healing and a return to Lutheran orthodoxy in the ELCA, but more importantly, I pray for comfort and guidance for ELCA members, troubled by their synod’s decisions.

Jon
 
StevieD said:
How many Lutheran denominations are there out there?
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Hi Stevie,
Being far less hierarchical than the Catholic Church, there are numerous synods, some of them national Churches. Some claim Apostolic Succession, some do not. Many have altar and pulpit fellowship with each other, some for varying reasons, do not. Most, however, will commune any Lutheran who asks it. All claim to hold to scripture and the Augsburg Confession specifically, and the Book of Concord generally.
While we are not as variable a lot as the Anglicans, we do have our diversity.

Jon
 
One person said “It is difficult for me to understand why one would stay in a church that is so full of error.” Well, after you leave such a church, you ask yourself the same question. To this day I can’t figure out why it took me so long to leave PCUSA. I think there are so many variables (how you were brought up, what you understand, your church tradition, your friends, your family, etc) that pull on you to stay. It’s hard to understand unless you’ve been through it. Looking back, I realize all my reasons for staying didn’t match the reason for leaving. But it was still a hard decision at the time. Leaving a dying church that you believe once taught the Gospel and now is moving to apostate teaching involves a grieving process. I feel for those who have to go through it. You get through it, but in the middle of the tunnel it’s hard to see the light.
 
Vicki_Leigh said:
One person said “It is difficult for me to understand why one would stay in a church that is so full of error.” Well, after you leave such a church, you ask yourself the same question. To this day I can’t figure out why it took me so long to leave PCUSA. I think there are so many variables (how you were brought up, what you understand, your church tradition, your friends, your family, etc) that pull on you to stay. It’s hard to understand unless you’ve been through it. Looking back, I realize all my reasons for staying didn’t match the reason for leaving. But it was still a hard decision at the time. Leaving a dying church that you believe once taught the Gospel and now is moving to apostate teaching involves a grieving process. I feel for those who have to go through it. You get through it, but in the middle of the tunnel it’s hard to see the light.
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Having left the SDA church, and journeyed over to the LCMS I can certainly agree that a transition can be hard and often with much grief. I understand that there is a new denomination being formed that will not ordain homosexuals or condone open behavior of such by it’s membership. The denomination is being formed from ELCA members and parishes that are abandoning the current organization. I wish I could remember the name of the new denomination but folks can probably find it with enough time on a search engine.
 
Loneviking, you are thinking of CORE, which is setting itself up as a synod within a synod. CORE stands for Coalition for Renewal. The url is: lutherancore.org.

Andrew, I take your words as brotherly Christian admonition, as I do all others who have posted here. It is helpful to know how this looks from the outside. My wife and I have gone to the Greek festivals at Holy Trinity in Roanoke and I see that there are two Orthodox churches in the Roanoke Valley. We would love at attend services, though I don’t know if I can get my wife to go to another Coptic service. The one we attended in Raleigh, NC was a bit off-putting to her, having to sit on the other side of the church and wear a head covering. The Greek service might be a bit more to her liking.

I thank all those who have had the experience of leaving a denomination. I hope we can also hear from those who have decided to stay. My decision has been to stay. I know that I can make a difference and have made a difference. There is a rabbinical saying, “It only takes an idiot to drop a pebble in the water and 1,000 sages cannot stop its ripples.” We can take that negatively, and I think it is our nature to do so, but there is also a positive message there. The Epistles and especially Revelation speak of perseverance in the face of trouble. Compared to the Persecutions of Nero and Diocletian, this a not a big deal. It is my decision to persevere.
 
Oldtimer-- I stayed with PCUSA for years in congregations that thought they could stop the downward slide. Ultimately, so many people left the denomination, that it became clear the only change that was happening was the loss of whole congregations to faithful denominations. Thus, PCUSA was destined for continued slide down the road to apostacy. I’m hoping ELCA does not suffer the same fate. It’s hard to know when you reach the point where you’ve stayed too long if the change isn’t happening. All you can do is pray for discernment so you’ll know when you reach that point. I wish you well.
 
JonNC said:
Not that I’m aware of. There are numerous ELCA sems, and the LCMS has two. I don’t know about WELS, and I also don’t know the process for transfer from one synod to another, though I’m sure there is one.

I agree, and that’s why my POV is that behaviors are important, not predispositions.

Jon
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As a former WELS I can say that yes, WELS has their own seminaries. (Martin Luther college in New Ulm MN and Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in Mequon WI come to mind) As a WELS, we always viewed ourselves as the most conservative Lutherans. Actually, now that I’m Catholic, it’s ironic to me how much they hate Catholics, but how similar they truly are.

Quite honestly, this lack of leadership amongst the various Lutheran denominations was one thing that drew me to the Catholic Church. I have much respect for my Lutheran heritage as it goes back to my ancestors on one side of my family, but it disturbs me how much they are influenced by the topics of the day and how they are slowly becoming more and more liberal, despite the way the Bible teaches.
 
=BrokenFortress;6899170]As a former WELS I can say that yes, WELS has their own seminaries. (Martin Luther college in New Ulm MN and Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in Mequon WI come to mind) As a WELS, we always viewed ourselves as the most conservative Lutherans. Actually, now that I’m Catholic, it’s ironic to me how much they hate Catholics, but how similar they truly are.
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Pleased to hear from you, Allison. My daughter is to be a senior at CUW, also in Mequon.
And BTW, it is also curious to me that the Lutheran leaders who are the more “conservative” are the least interested in dialogue with Rome, yet are truly the best positioned theologically to do so.
Quite honestly, this lack of leadership amongst the various Lutheran denominations was one thing that drew me to the Catholic Church. I have much respect for my Lutheran heritage as it goes back to my ancestors on one side of my family, but it disturbs me how much they are influenced by the topics of the day and how they are slowly becoming more and more liberal, despite the way the Bible teaches.
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Lutherans seem to bounce between fear of hierarchical and fear of congregational. Both of these have dangers, but I agree with you that congregational polity is decidedly more troublesome, particularly for a Church which relies on doctrine and congessional statements, as opposed to individual interpretation.

I have had the feeling, at least until the recent election of our new synod president (bishop), that the secular/liberal movement that now controls the ELCA might also have sway in the LCMS. That seems at least delayed, but that movement would have the effect driving me out. That said, I have great respect for Pastor Gary, old-timer 7, frjsummerville, and frankly most of my extended family, and their courage to fight against overwhelming odds in the ELCA.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Hi Stevie,
Being far less hierarchical than the Catholic Church, there are numerous synods, some of them national Churches. Some claim Apostolic Succession, some do not. Many have altar and pulpit fellowship with each other, some for varying reasons, do not. Most, however, will commune any Lutheran who asks it. All claim to hold to scripture and the Augsburg Confession specifically, and the Book of Concord generally.
While we are not as variable a lot as the Anglicans, we do have our diversity.

Jon
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HI Jon. Thanks for that. I don’t think it’s a matter of hierarchy but of authority. Protestants are prepared to subdivide and subdivide again and then claim that somehow it doesn’t matter. It clearly does. If the differences don’t matter, then why split because of them? They are obviously thought to be matters of importance or it wouldn’t happen.
Unity is one of the marks of the True Church and this has not happened in either Luther or Calvin inspired churches.
 
=StevieD;6899357]HI Jon. Thanks for that. I don’t think it’s a matter of hierarchy but of authority. Protestants are prepared to subdivide and subdivide again and then claim that somehow it doesn’t matter. It clearly does. If the differences don’t matter, then why split because of them? They are obviously thought to be matters of importance or it wouldn’t happen.
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Oh, the differences do matter. Of course, I look at the “divisions” in Lutheranism, and the ones I see are the straying away from the confessions and into Protestantism. If your take on that is a lack of earthly authority, there might be some substance to that.
Unity is one of the marks of the True Church and this has not happened in either Luther or Calvin inspired churches.
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By your definition here, the very existence of Orthodoxy, much less the various western non-Catholic Churches, indicts the Catholic Church as well, since east and west schismed from each other, and Protestants from the western Church.

I believe there is one true catholic and apostolic Church, brought into existence by Christ Himself, and universal in heaven and on earth. That the Church Militant has divided His Church both sinful and not surprising. Pray the Holy Spirit can lead us together again.

Jon
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Loneviking, you are thinking of CORE, which is setting itself up as a synod within a synod. CORE stands for Coalition for Renewal. The url is: lutherancore.org.
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Almost right. I did some searching and folks from CORE and some who weren’t involved with CORE are forming the North American Lutheran Church (NALC). CORE and the NALC are going to work together as an alternative for disaffected ELCA members.

Gods’ peace, Oldtimer, as you have a tough road ahead of you.
 
qui_est_ce said:
Are you asking me to provide biblical sources for the evils of fornication?

I Cor

Corinthians
Chapter 5:
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It is not clear what this is referring to. The Commandment says, “Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor’s Wife”–not, “Thou Shalt Not Fornicate”

Wives were property then. Coveting one’s father’s wife–presumably not the coveter’s mother–sounds like violating the Commandment–coveting his father’s property, and also sounds like incest. I don’t find many refs in either the OT or the NT, against fornication, as such. King David had many concubines–was he regarded as committing adultery? I don’t think so, because they weren’t other men’s wives. Conquering armies, including the Israelite army, raped all the time. Women had to prove in the OT that they were raped, otherwise they were stoned.
 
1234 said:
It is not clear what this is referring to. The Commandment says, “Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor’s Wife”–not, “Thou Shalt Not Fornicate”

Wives were property then. Coveting one’s father’s wife–presumably not the coveter’s mother–sounds like violating the Commandment–coveting his father’s property, and also sounds like incest. **I don’t find many refs in either the OT or the NT, against fornication, as such. ** King David had many concubines–was he regarded as committing adultery? I don’t think so, because they weren’t other men’s wives. Conquering armies, including the Israelite army, raped all the time. Women had to prove in the OT that they were raped, otherwise they were stoned.
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1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

bible.cc/1_corinthians/6-18.htm

This seems to clearly encourage us to stay away from the sin of fornication.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
By your definition here, the very existence of Orthodoxy, much less the various western non-Catholic Churches, indicts the Catholic Church as well, since east and west schismed from each other, and Protestants from the western Church.

I believe there is one true catholic and apostolic Church, brought into existence by Christ Himself, and universal in heaven and on earth. That the Church Militant has divided His Church both sinful and not surprising. Pray the Holy Spirit can lead us together again.

Jon
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Jon, prior to the “Reformation” there was but one Church of Christ, a part of which schismed off (whether one side is to be blamed or both is not the point of my post), after said “Reformation” thousands of Christian sects have sprang up due to a rejection of Sacred Tradition and a belief in sola scriptura.
 
Praying for all Lutherans going through this difficult time. I’m grateful CAF has provided a place where we can find common ground.

Keep coming back.
 
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