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Lion_IRC
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Ask Stephen Fry why people (atheists) who think there is no God, bring children into this world when they know suffering exists.
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AyJSimon
Guest
That would be a silly question. We bring children into the world because we know that flourishing exists along with suffering. The difference is that atheists like Stephen Fry have no control over the suffering that fate visits upon us, and therefore don’t expect to be worshiped for not preventing it.Ask Stephen Fry why people (atheists) who think there is no God, bring children into this world when they know suffering exists.
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estesbob
Guest
*Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent. 1
*St. John of the Cross
*The more we are afflicted in this world, the greater is our assurance in the next; the more we sorrow in the present, the greater will be our joy in the future. 2
*St. Isidore of Seville
*In the same way that a powerful medicine cures an illness, so illness itself is a medicine to cure passion. And there is much profit of soul in bearing illness quietly and giving thanks to God. 3
*St. Amma Syncletice
When it is all over you will not regret having suffered; rather you will regret having suffered so little, and suffered that little so badly. 4
St. Sebastian Valfre
*If only mortals would learn how great it is to possess divine grace, how beautiful, how noble, how precious. How many riches it hides within itself, how many joys and delights! No one would complain about his cross or about troubles that may happen to him, if he would come to know the scales on which they are weighed when they are distributed to men. 5
*St. Rose of Lima
*The purest suffering bears and carries in its train the purest understanding. 6
*St. John of the Cross
*Trials and tribulations offer us a chance to make reparation for our past faults and sins. On such occasions the Lord comes to us like a physician to heal the wounds left by our sins. Tribulation is the divine medicine. 7
*St. Augustine of Hippo
*We must often draw the comparison between time and eternity. This is the remedy of all our troubles. How small will the present moment appear when we enter that great ocean. 8
*St. Elizebeth Ann Seton
*If you embrace all things in this life as coming from the hands of God, and even embrace death to fulfill His holy will, assuredly you will die a saint. 9
*St. Alphonsus Liguor
*It is loving the Cross that one finds one heart, for Divine Love cannot live without suffering. 10
*St. Bernadette
*We are at Jesus’ disposal. If he wants you to be sick in bed, if he wants you to proclaim His work in the street, if he wants you to clean the toilets all day, that’s all right, everything is all right. We must say, “I belong to you. You can do whatever you like.” And this …is our strength, and this is the joy of the Lord. 11
*Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
*Would that men might come at last to see that it is quite impossible to reach the thicket of the riches and wisdom of God except by first entering the thicket of much suffering, in such a way that the soul finds there its consolation and desire. The soul that longs for divine wisdom chooses first, and in truth, to enter the thicket of the cross. 12
St. John of the Cross *
*The wicked exist in this world either to be converted or that through them the good may exercise patience. 13
*St. Augustine
Many would be willing to have afflictions provided that they not be inconvenienced by them." 14
St. Francis de Sales
The principal act of courage is to endure and withstand dangers doggedly rather than to attack them." 15
St. Thomas Aquinas
*St. John of the Cross
*The more we are afflicted in this world, the greater is our assurance in the next; the more we sorrow in the present, the greater will be our joy in the future. 2
*St. Isidore of Seville
*In the same way that a powerful medicine cures an illness, so illness itself is a medicine to cure passion. And there is much profit of soul in bearing illness quietly and giving thanks to God. 3
*St. Amma Syncletice
When it is all over you will not regret having suffered; rather you will regret having suffered so little, and suffered that little so badly. 4
St. Sebastian Valfre
*If only mortals would learn how great it is to possess divine grace, how beautiful, how noble, how precious. How many riches it hides within itself, how many joys and delights! No one would complain about his cross or about troubles that may happen to him, if he would come to know the scales on which they are weighed when they are distributed to men. 5
*St. Rose of Lima
*The purest suffering bears and carries in its train the purest understanding. 6
*St. John of the Cross
*Trials and tribulations offer us a chance to make reparation for our past faults and sins. On such occasions the Lord comes to us like a physician to heal the wounds left by our sins. Tribulation is the divine medicine. 7
*St. Augustine of Hippo
*We must often draw the comparison between time and eternity. This is the remedy of all our troubles. How small will the present moment appear when we enter that great ocean. 8
*St. Elizebeth Ann Seton
*If you embrace all things in this life as coming from the hands of God, and even embrace death to fulfill His holy will, assuredly you will die a saint. 9
*St. Alphonsus Liguor
*It is loving the Cross that one finds one heart, for Divine Love cannot live without suffering. 10
*St. Bernadette
*We are at Jesus’ disposal. If he wants you to be sick in bed, if he wants you to proclaim His work in the street, if he wants you to clean the toilets all day, that’s all right, everything is all right. We must say, “I belong to you. You can do whatever you like.” And this …is our strength, and this is the joy of the Lord. 11
*Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
*Would that men might come at last to see that it is quite impossible to reach the thicket of the riches and wisdom of God except by first entering the thicket of much suffering, in such a way that the soul finds there its consolation and desire. The soul that longs for divine wisdom chooses first, and in truth, to enter the thicket of the cross. 12
St. John of the Cross *
*The wicked exist in this world either to be converted or that through them the good may exercise patience. 13
*St. Augustine
Many would be willing to have afflictions provided that they not be inconvenienced by them." 14
St. Francis de Sales
The principal act of courage is to endure and withstand dangers doggedly rather than to attack them." 15
St. Thomas Aquinas
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POJIUJH
Guest
The question I answered originally. He wants to make saints of them too! Suffering in this world is redemptive, it is exactly what saves our souls. God Himself didn’t leave us unaccompanied in this regard. Thousands of years ago, one adult more innocent than a child suffered more than anyone has or ever will in order to allow us to have an immeasurable reward.Then the question becomes why does your god feel the need to punish children with parasites, injuries, and cancer just because two adults sinned thousands of years ago.
It is the child that goes to Heaven. It’s atheism, after all, that has the greatest and most depressing problem with suffering. Sometimes even to the point of believing in a god to blame it on. We needn’t worry. One thing that has always impressed me is that this teaching of Catholicism is unique across centuries - in fact the entire history of humanity, that it alone has an answer to suffering - and that it aligns so perfectly with reason and even more perfectly with nature of God, the Maximally Good Uncaused Cause that even atheists know. After all, what doesn’t exist shouldn’t exist to disappoint us.
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
Why is an infant in need of redemption? A child that is three days old can hardly be said to have harmed anyone, or done much of anything. Inherited guilt is a purely disgusting concept. Under the current system, some children are born and will spend their entire lives suffering… to redeem them for actions they didn’t take part in and couldn’t understand.The question I answered originally. He wants to make saints of them too! Suffering in this world is redemptive, it is exactly what saves our souls. God Himself didn’t leave us unaccompanied in this regard. Thousands of years ago, one adult more innocent than a child suffered more than anyone has or ever will in order to allow us to have an immeasurable reward.
Moreover, it’s quite silly to claim that Jesus suffered more than anyone else. There have been a lot of creative torturous deaths over the years- and the people undergoing those deaths did so without the power to revive themselves.
If your god is handing out souls to infants and deeming that they need to spend months in pain in order to be redeemed, I’ll call that monstrous. Moreover, what of those that die painlessly as infants? Did they get the better souls, that didn’t need to be redeemed?
Huh? The point of the argument isn’t that a god should or shouldn’t exist. It’s that the god you argue for doesn’t seem to exist.It is the child that goes to Heaven. It’s atheism, after all, that has the greatest and most depressing problem with suffering. Sometimes even to the point of believing in a god to blame it on. We needn’t worry. One thing that has always impressed me is that this teaching of Catholicism is unique across centuries - in fact the entire history of humanity, that it alone has an answer to suffering - and that it aligns so perfectly with reason and even more perfectly with nature of God, the Maximally Good Uncaused Cause that even atheists know. After all, what doesn’t exist shouldn’t exist to disappoint us.
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DeniseNY
Guest
Jesus may not have suffered more, but he did suffer, and he was sinless. He suffered and died so that the rest of us may have eternal life. Died for our sins; not his. Jesus took no part in the sins of all mankind. Yet through his suffering, we may live.Why is an infant in need of redemption? A child that is three days old can hardly be said to have harmed anyone, or done much of anything. Inherited guilt is a purely disgusting concept. Under the current system, some children are born and will spend their entire lives suffering… to redeem them for actions they didn’t take part in and couldn’t understand.
Moreover, it’s quite silly to claim that Jesus suffered more than anyone else. There have been a lot of creative torturous deaths over the years- and the people undergoing those deaths did so without the power to revive themselves.
If your god is handing out souls to infants and deeming that they need to spend months in pain in order to be redeemed, I’ll call that monstrous. Moreover, what of those that die painlessly as infants? Did they get the better souls, that didn’t need to be redeemed?
Huh? The point of the argument isn’t that a god should or shouldn’t exist. It’s that the god you argue for doesn’t seem to exist.
So unless you perceive yourself as being omniscient, your understanding of “goodness” is inherently flawed.
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estesbob
Guest
So since God did not create a world to you liking he must not exist?Why is an infant in need of redemption? A child that is three days old can hardly be said to have harmed anyone, or done much of anything. Inherited guilt is a purely disgusting concept. Under the current system, some children are born and will spend their entire lives suffering… to redeem them for actions they didn’t take part in and couldn’t understand.
Moreover, it’s quite silly to claim that Jesus suffered more than anyone else. There have been a lot of creative torturous deaths over the years- and the people undergoing those deaths did so without the power to revive themselves.
If your god is handing out souls to infants and deeming that they need to spend months in pain in order to be redeemed, I’ll call that monstrous. Moreover, what of those that die painlessly as infants? Did they get the better souls, that didn’t need to be redeemed?
Huh? The point of the argument isn’t that a god should or shouldn’t exist. It’s that the god you argue for doesn’t seem to exist.
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estesbob
Guest
The point is Jesus didn’t have to suffer. In fact he did not even have to be born. He didn’t need to create us, he didn’t need save us. He didn’t need to give us free will. So the question is is a life that can be filled with some suffering better than no life at all? Is an eternity of unending joy worth the trials and tribulations of ling in this worldJesus may not have suffered more, but he did suffer, and he was sinless. He suffered and died so that the rest of us may have eternal life. Died for our sins; not his. Jesus took no part in the sins of all mankind. Yet through his suffering, we may live.
So unless you perceive yourself as being omniscient, your understanding of “goodness” is inherently flawed.
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
He may very well exist, but not as an all powerful, all knowing, all loving being. I would not use this argument against someone who belived in the Greek or Nose gods, because they do not presuppose that the universe was created with love and compassion in mind. I’m arguing against the god Christians claim exists, not all divine things.So since God did not create a world to you liking he must not exist?
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
None of which has anything to do with why your god requires innocents to suffer. The fact that he was willing to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself, and then revive himself is hardly a viable excuse.Jesus may not have suffered more, but he did suffer, and he was sinless. He suffered and died so that the rest of us may have eternal life. Died for our sins; not his. Jesus took no part in the sins of all mankind. Yet through his suffering, we may live.
So unless you perceive yourself as being omniscient, your understanding of “goodness” is inherently flawed.
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POJIUJH
Guest
If we had no answer, you could argue that. Yet, we do have an answer for suffering. The atheist and every other human thought can’t reach an answer. A false philosophy that teaches that the proper outlook is one of of ruin, guilt and needless, fruitless pain and suffering is by far the most disgusting concept. You can’t say that about Christianity. It is the atheist who gets a red angry face talking about this topic, it’s the Catholic who sleeps easy knowing that these children have a loving Father looking after them.Why is an infant in need of redemption? (Because even infants are born into original sin, but the beauty is that those who die young are assured not only of getting out of suffering, but of getting to Heaven for it) A child that is three days old can hardly be said to have harmed anyone, or done much of anything. (Yes, but our oldest parents have, and we have. The cause of their suffering is humanity, unfortunate as it is, but it is abundantly compensated) Inherited guilt is a purely disgusting concept. (It isn’t the same definiton of guilt you may be thinking of when you equate it to being disgusting. You can read more about the destinctions). Under the current system, some children are born and will spend their entire lives suffering… to redeem them for actions they didn’t take part in and couldn’t understand. (This is, I think, where the misunderstanding is. When people use the word “redemption” they don’t mean just atonement. If atonement was the only reward then a man who has suffered all his life and made sufficient atonement at his death would only merit to be left in a place without suffering. Redemption includes Heaven, though, and it is quite different than a neutral place without suffering, it is a gift of an infinite and unimaginable bliss. Being a gift, I would have more to envy young children who have suffered and died. If Heaven was given to them for a short time of pain that they are mostly unaware of, my own salvation is on more slippery grounds, and I might have to battle through another 50 years of suffering and my own particular torments and illnesses to have the chance to be where they are! Yet if it takes another 100 so be it. This time is finite)
Moreover, it’s quite silly to claim that Jesus suffered more than anyone else. There have been a lot of creative torturous deaths over the years- and the people undergoing those deaths did so without the power to revive themselves.
(Yet they only suffered and died their own deaths. They didn’t suffer and die for everybody’s crimes.)
If your god is handing out souls to infants and deeming that they need to spend months in pain in order to be redeemed, I’ll call that monstrous. (Again. Your understanding of the definition of “redeemed”. Heaven is worth any amount of pain. Moreover, what of those that die painlessly as infants? Did they get the better souls, that didn’t need to be redeemed? (No, likely their testing will just be different. Perhaps even like the testing of the angels, who had no bodies. Perhaps some day we will know, yet it isn’t critical that we don’t.)
Huh? The point of the argument isn’t that a god should or shouldn’t exist. It’s that the god you argue for doesn’t seem to exist.
I will be leaving in a while so I can’t guarantee any comments on here for a number of months. Just so you know. Bon voyage!
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estesbob
Guest
Again-you base his lack of existence on your displeasure with the world he created. Based on that criteria I doubt your existence based on the content of your posts.He may very well exist, but not as an all powerful, all knowing, all loving being. I would not use this argument against someone who belived in the Greek or Nose gods, because they do not presuppose that the universe was created with love and compassion in mind. I’m arguing against the god Christians claim exists, not all divine things.
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AyJSimon
Guest
Except that, much like the Greek and Norse Gods, Animal Spirits doesn’t presume to be an all-powerful, all-knowing, or all-loving being either.Again-you base his lack of existence on your displeasure with the world he created. Based on that criteria I doubt your existence based on the content of your posts.
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DeniseNY
Guest
Well, yeah. He kind of does. As do people like Stephen Fry.Except that, much like the Greek and Norse Gods, Animal Spirits doesn’t presume to be an all-powerful, all-knowing, or all-loving being either.
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
Not displeasure, but the world you claim he created is out of line with characteristics you claim he has. It’s profoundly silly to extend that argument to me- I am claiming to be the creator of the universe, nor am I claiming to be perfectly good.Again-you base his lack of existence on your displeasure with the world he created. Based on that criteria I doubt your existence based on the content of your posts.
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AnimalSpirits
Guest
Flatout false. All I presume is that Christians sincerely believe their god A. Created the universe and B. is good.Well, yeah. He kind of does. As do people like Stephen Fry.
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AyJSimon
Guest
Not even remotely. Pointing out the character flaws in super-beings doesn’t require that one have no character flaws.Well, yeah. He kind of does. As do people like Stephen Fry.
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DeniseNY
Guest
Do you see the absurdity of that statement?Not even remotely. Pointing out the character flaws in super-beings doesn’t require that one have no character flaws.
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AyJSimon
Guest
No, but feel free to point it out.Do you see the absurdity of that statement?
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TarkanAttila
Guest
Aside from being alright alliteration, what do you mean by that? I am not familiar with this concept.The character of conscious experience exists on a continuum.
Both cannot happen at once?If you move (or are moved) in one direction, you experience more suffering. In the other, you experience more flourishing.
Hmm. So the greatest good is “flourishing”. Please define “flourishing”.In the Asian tsunami example, “a greater height of well-being” would be a state of consciousness where, collectively, we experience greater flourishing as a direct result of 225,000+ people being drowned than we could have achieved had this event not taken place.
Actually, that also is a good question. Why is being healthy better than being sick?‘Why is flourishing is better than suffering’ is an odd question - a bit like asking why is being healthy better than being sick. Once you’ve hit philosophical bedrock, you arrive at a first principle that can’t be gotten beneath.
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