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yankee_doodle
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guess it depends on what neighborhood you were raised in and which country you were born in? I’ve seen plenty of ugliness in this world – but let me guess, that’s the devils fault right
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simplynoone
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Sure. Most Christians confuse the New Covenant for the house of Judah and the house of Israel in Jeremiah 31 with the one of Paul’s (the covenant of death Isaiah 28) which is elaborated within Hebrews.
The New Covenant for Israel, in Jeremiah 31, does not abolish the Laws and/or our obedience in fulfilling them. It is only that as we pay attention to the Laws and the wisdom that is taught through them, that the covenant is no longer one we obey out of fear, but out of understanding. Nothing else changes. Understand?
The one Paul made is for the Christians and their god. That one is not spoken of in the Tanakh. We don’t believe in the literal sacrifice of a human being. That is barbaric. Hope that helps.
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simple_soul
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simple soul;5794011:
I know, I think that is a part of the New Covenant.
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simplynoone
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Now, show me how this is spoken of in the Tanakh. This concept is spoken of metaphorically FOR THE PEOPLE of Israel as a whole, but not for one individual man and not quite in the mystical way that Christians like to think. Resurrection is back to the land as a People. We saw that being fulfilled right before the mid of the last century. Hosea 6:1-2
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simplynoone
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simplynoone;5794045:
You do understand that I am saying Jesus broke some of the commandments, no? Your own NT says so. Don’t assume that I think Jesus taught lawlessness… quite the contrary. He didn’t die the day that he broke them though… he still taught the Law and its fulfillment. When he DID die though… his actions that were against the Law were no longer in existence. That is what is spoken of in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6. We all die and thus, all fulfill the Law. The Law of God is cause and effect. We all live and the effect of that for us is death. Quite natural and not at all a punishment… just the natural fulfillment of having a beginning.I know, I think that is a part of the New Covenant.
The resurrection physically is a misunderstanding of some Gentile who showed his ignorance by interpolating a false idea of what is written in the Tanakh. Hosea 6:1-2 … .that is speaking of the People back to the land and not of a dead man literally coming back to life.
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simplynoone
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Mountains that are meant to move will move with or without faith. Not all mountains were meant to do such. Faith is a cop out. It acts as an illusion for what the Tanakh is really speaking about, which is faithfulness. There is a difference.
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simplynoone
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Oh… btw… if you ever do a study of “hills” in the Tanakh, you might notice the esoteric meaning sometimes used is for the People, Israel. Then, it makes Luke 23:30 interesting, no?
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simple_soul
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I believe that Jesus is the cornerstone for the resurrection of all people as a whole. If you want to call all people the people of Israel that is your choice. Maybe when we are all united to the great I Am, through the Spirit of the great I AM, by the way of Jesus Christ who is also the great I am made flesh, we will be called the New Israel. I am not sure. My knowledge of literal biblical references are not at my finger tips. This is something I am still working on. But if you go over to the "Collapse of a Christian Pillar thread AdrianP posted a slew of references that you can pick and choose from.
I know in my heart that the great I Am that spoke and walked with Adam and Eve, who spoke to Noah, and who spoke to Moses is the same great I Am that speaks to us today in the deepest reassesses of our being if we would just listen to Him the way He taught us to listen to Him.
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yankee_doodle
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If there was a god I’d thank him for America, and the freedoms we have (and technology like the internet, where you guys can duke these issues out without killing each other).
I’m not sure how we went from Stephen Hawking to a comparison of Judaism and Christianity … but if you want my opinion (which I’m sure you don’t, but I’ll give it anyway) both Christianity and Judaism make sense in terms of their internal theology (notwithstanding the many inconsistencies – the general themes make sense if you’re willing to believe sages and mystics; and you’re willing to believe something without critical analysis). The problems occur (for both systems) when they’re matched against reality, science, nature, and logic.
I’m not sure how we went from Stephen Hawking to a comparison of Judaism and Christianity … but if you want my opinion (which I’m sure you don’t, but I’ll give it anyway) both Christianity and Judaism make sense in terms of their internal theology (notwithstanding the many inconsistencies – the general themes make sense if you’re willing to believe sages and mystics; and you’re willing to believe something without critical analysis). The problems occur (for both systems) when they’re matched against reality, science, nature, and logic.
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simple_soul
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Mountains that are not meant to be moved show us that we have to have faith love and trust in the great I Am the He knows what is best. When we learn to Love Him with all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind is when we can truly say we have faith in Him. Did not Noah show this faith and trust in the great I am when he built the ark? Did not Abraham show us this faith when the great I Am told him to sacrifice his own son to Him? Did not Jesus Christ commend Himself to the Great I Am, His Father, in His death trusting that His Father would raise Him from death and then place it under His feet? This is the kind of faith that moves mountains. There are fiscal mountains that get moved for some if the great I Am wills it, for me they are mountains that hinder me from loving the great I am with my whole heart, my whole soul, and my whole mind. For it is in trusting the Great I Am that He completely fulfills me. I believe we all have to have this trust that Jesus Christ showed us and then maybe the New Israel will be.
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simple_soul
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Yes very interesting. It just confirms my belief and trust in the Great I Am more.
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simple_soul
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simple soul;5794098:
When you refere to a “Gentile who showed his ignorance” you are forgetting Luke 24:45-49.Then He opened their minds to understand the scriptures. This’, He said, is what is written: that the Messiah is to suffer death and to rise from the dead on the third day, and that in his name repentance bringing forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed to all nations. Begin from Jerusalem; it is you who are the witnesses to it all. And mark this: I am sending upon you my Father’s Promised gift; so stay here in this city until you are armed with the power from above."You do understand that I am saying Jesus broke some of the commandments, no? Your own NT says so. Don’t assume that I think Jesus taught lawlessness… quite the contrary. He didn’t die the day that he broke them though… he still taught the Law and its fulfillment. When he DID die though… his actions that were against the Law were no longer in existence. That is what is spoken of in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6. We all die and thus, all fulfill the Law. The Law of God is cause and effect. We all live and the effect of that for us is death. Quite natural and not at all a punishment… just the natural fulfillment of having a beginning.
The resurrection physically is a misunderstanding of some Gentile who showed his ignorance by interpolating a false idea of what is written in the Tanakh. Hosea 6:1-2 … .that is speaking of the People back to the land and not of a dead man literally coming back to life.
Again I will reference the posts by AdrianP on the other thread.
Always praying and pondering
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Dokimas
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The first Christians were Jews that believe Jesus to be the long awaited Messiah. Paul understood that a Gentile did not need to be circumsized to be accepted into the Family of God. Paul started churches but not Christianity. You misunderstand.
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Dokimas
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You must not be aware of Acts 11. Something wonderful was going on in Antioch before Paul got there. And prior to Antioch, Peter told those in Jerusalem that God revealed to him that God was accepting Gentiles without becoming Jews.
The Messiah died for all people. One doesn’t have to become a Jew to be in relationship to Him.
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josie_L
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So one person single-handedly created Christianity despite the fact that there were 12 other apostles to contend with? Is everything in the NT written by St. Paul? Was St. Paul able to do whatever he pleased with no one to gainsay him? I think you give St. Paul too much credit. Furthermore, St. Paul was not advocating that one needed to lose their “jewishness” to become Christians but that circumcision was not necessary to become a Christian.
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josie_L
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You are going against history and tradition by stating such, it is and as always been a man, the son of Man, that they perceived would be the Messiah, in fact, Jesus was rejected because the Jews were expecting a political figure (a king) as their Messiah that’s why he was so well-received in Jerusalem initially, as they thought Jesus would free them from Roman tyranny. Moreover, the Roman officials decided to place INRI (King of the Jews) above Jesus’s cross to spite the Pharisees, i.e., San Hedrin. And let’s not forget that Jesus was brought to Pontius Pilate because the San Hedrin accused him of blasphemy as he mentioned more than once that He was the great “I am”. So you have two options simply noone, you either repudiate Jesus completely or accept Him for who He really is, the Christ.I find it ironic you are implicating me with being obtuse and yet, you still do not understand what it is Jesus was saying. It is clear… salvation being from the Jews only solidifies my point even further. (BTW … I am using the KJV of the NT). Whose hands were used to write the Tanakh that you even are blessed enough to have in your possession? Without those Jewish hands, you might not even have any knowledge of the true God at all other than what you see in Nature (but mankind has done well to ignore those evidences … so not much promise there). So, salvation, being knowledge (Hosea 4:6) is FROM the Jews. No arguments from me.
As for Jews believing for centuries that the Messiah ought to be a man … I don’t think the prophets did. Certainly not the ones whose words are used in the Tanakh. Isaiah being a prime example … Isaiah 49:3. Israel, the People, is named as the Servant and Israel is the Suffering Servant which almost everyone agrees is speaking of the Messiah. I know Israel is one in the same as the Servant of Isaiah 53 because all thoughout the Tanakh, it says so.
I am not being obtuse … I am being consistent with what is actually written.
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josie_L
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No one disputes the ugliness there is in the world because of war, hatred and the like, but the world itself is stunningly beautiful. This in and of itself bespeaks of something greater than ourselves. Anyways, would you do me the favour of viewing this trailer, it is based on a documentary by several Catholics, entitled “The Human Experience” (I’m waiting till it gets on dvd):guess it depends on what neighborhood you were raised in and which country you were born in? I’ve seen plenty of ugliness in this world – but let me guess, that’s the devils fault right
youtube.com/watch?v=ahLem-krZe4
All of you out there need to watch this documentary (it’s already won many awards).
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yankee_doodle
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saw it … do you really think that sort of stuff proves there’s god? If anything it shows the insanity of theism. Let me guess what the theme of the movie is – religion is the answer, as long as it’s MY religion
It’s stupid … and none of this stuff is a real argument.
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josie_L
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Well, it’s more than just “theism”, it’s about our shared humanity, love, forgivenenss, hope and gratitude, mercy and kindness. . . . what’s with the cynicism Yankee, is life as an atheist making you bittersaw it … do you really think that sort of stuff proves there’s god? If anything it shows the insanity of theism. Let me guess what the theme of the movie is – religion is the answer, as long as it’s MY religion
It’s stupid … and none of this stuff is a real argument.
?p.s. It wasn’t meant to be an argument I’m just letting you know of a movie that I thought showed a different approach humans can take when confronted with suffering and evil. It’s truly humbling to know how afflicted with suffering some people are and yet they are so gracious and loving, not self pitying or angry.
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