Stephen Hawkings believes in God?

[simplynoone]

Because your twisting His words, and Jesus was a Jew, the Jewish Messiah to be exact, hence “salvation is of the Jews”.

“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.” We … that, in the English language, is plural… meaning the person saying “we” is speaking of the group to which he is referring; in this case, the Jews. Salvation is knowledge … this is confirmed by Hosea 4:6. If lack of knowledge destroys, than knowledge can save. Thus, Jesus was saying, “… we (the Jews) know what we (the Jews) worship (and it is not a man): for salvation (knowledge) is of the Jews.” Very clever and straight to the point. What is there not to understand? That you might not understand what is actually quite clear, mostly likely is why, when he was speaking to one, he didn’t say say “… salvation is of the Gentiles.”

You equate a man to salvation and that is where your knowledge is lacking.

 

[josie_L]

Israel, the People is the Messiah. Again, John 4:22 … salvation is of the Jews. That’s what your own NT says. Why don’t you believe Jesus’ own words?

Let’s see you say that Israel is the Messiah, here are a list of Jewish messiah claimants:

Cyrus the Great[1] (c. 600 or 576 BCE — August 530 or 529 BCE)

Alexander the Great[2] (July 20, 356 BCE — June 10 or June 11, 323 BCE)

Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)

Simon son of Joseph (c. 4 BCE) a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled. The

messiah of Gabriel’s Revelation.

Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)

Jesus (c. 30-33 or 36 CE) in the Roman province of Iudaea

Theudas (44-46)

Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea

Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt

Moses of Crete (5th century)

Isḥaḳ ben Ya’ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of

the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).

Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben

Ya’ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan

Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)

David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)

Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)

Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.

Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)

Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.

David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).

Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).

Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)

Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.

Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)

Mordecai Mokiakh (“the Rebuker”) of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)

Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.

Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century

Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.

Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah

Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah

Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is
believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

So are you telling me that the Jews interpreted scriptures erroneously for centuries? And if salvation is from the Jews, how will Israel (the messiah) save us and isn’t saying such a thing heretical, as nothing but God can save us?

 

[yankee_doodle]

But I told you Yankee that was based on the seasonal year of planting (life which is connected to spring) and harvesting (death which is connected to fall) and rebirth (spring again next year). This was a continuous cycle not a one time event, therefore, not an actual resurrection. And I already told you the Mesopotamians changed their beliefs a lot (up to and including more than likely assimilating Jewish beliefs). And there are no similarities between Osiris and Jesus, I read the story, there are no comparisons to be made. .

p.s. Hi how are you by the way?

No it wasn’t – it was actual life-death-rebirth themes (at least most of the myths). Moreover, these parallels are illustrated by scholars who date the particular myths themselves (so fluctuations in beliefs within the society they originate from isn’t relevant).

Osiris (who dates back to around 2,500 BCE) was a dying-and-rising demigod (like Tammuz, Jesus, Zalmoxis, Baldr, Dionysus, and Odin). There were various god’s who were presented as partly human-partly god.

Furthermore, there are ancient myths where the similarities are more striking (such as Odysseus and Jesus); and Homer is believed to have lived somewhere between 850 and 1194 BCE (before the Septuagint was first transcribed).

 

[simplynoone]

Let’s see you say that Israel is the Messiah, here are a list of Jewish messiah claimants:

Cyrus the Great[1] (c. 600 or 576 BCE — August 530 or 529 BCE)

Alexander the Great[2] (July 20, 356 BCE — June 10 or June 11, 323 BCE)

Judas son of Hezekiah (Ezekias) (c. 4 BCE)

Simon son of Joseph (c. 4 BCE) a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled. The

messiah of Gabriel’s Revelation.

Athronges (c. 4-2? BCE)

Jesus (c. 30-33 or 36 CE) in the Roman province of Iudaea

Theudas (44-46)

Menahem ben Judah partook in a revolt against Agrippa II in Judea

Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), defeated in the Bar Kokhba revolt

Moses of Crete (5th century)

Isḥaḳ ben Ya’ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan lived in Persia during the reign of

the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (684-705).

Yudghan, lived and taught in Persia in the early eighth century disciple of Isḥaḳ ben

Ya’ḳub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani of Ispahan

Serene (Sherini, Sheria, Serenus, Zonoria, Saüra) (c. 720)

David Alroy or Alrui (c. 1160)

Abraham Abulafia (b. 1240)

Nissim ben Abraham (c. 1295) active in Avila.

Moses Botarel of Cisneros (c. 1413)

Asher Kay (1502) a German near Venice.

David Reubeni (early sixteenth century).

Solomon Molcho (early sixteenth century).

Sabbatai Zevi (alternative spellings: Shabbetai, Sabbetai, Shabbesai; Zvi, Tzvi) (1626-1676)

Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.

Miguel (Abraham) Cardoso (b. 1630)

Mordecai Mokiakh (“the Rebuker”) of Eisenstadt (active 1678-1683)

Jacob Querido (d. 1690), said to be the reincarnation of Shabbetai Zevi.

Löbele Prossnitz (Joseph ben Jacob), early eighteenth century

Jacob Joseph Frank (1726-1791), founder of the Frankist movement.

Shukr Kuhayl I, 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah

Judah ben Shalom (Shukr Kuhayl II), 19th-century Yemenite pseudo-messiah

Menachem Mendel Schneerson; a 20th century Rabbi and charismatic leader who is
believed to be the Messiah by many of his adherents.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

So are you telling me that the Jews interpreted scriptures erroneously for centuries? And if salvation is from the Jews, how will Israel (the messiah) save us and isn’t saying such a thing heretical, as nothing but God can save us?

Yes, God uses man. Man is not the Saviour, but man is the tool in the “hand” of the Saviour. Jesus was a tool just like these other men were. Through knowledge and enlightenment, the People of God still exist. That credit is due to God and the People as a whole.

But worshipping one of any of these men is only showing ignorance of what is in the Tanakh. Thus, again … that is why Jesus said, “… salvation is of the Jews.” Why? Because the Jews KNOW what they worship … and it is not a man. Worshipping Jesus as God is ignorance. Do you understand what I am saying? Do you understand Hosea 11:9? Deuteronomy 4:15,16? Do you understand what is meant by image? idol? Do you worship any of these men that you listed above besides Jesus? Why not?

 

[josie_L]

Yes, God uses man. Man is not the Saviour, but man is the tool in the “hand” of the Saviour. Jesus was a tool just like these other men were. Through knowledge and enlightenment, the People of God still exist. That credit is due to God and the People as a whole.

But worshipping one of any of these men is only showing ignorance of what is in the Tanakh. Thus, again … that is why Jesus said, “… salvation is of the Jews.” Why? Because the Jews KNOW what they worship … and it is not a man. Worshipping Jesus as God is ignorance. Do you understand what I am saying? Do you understand Hosea 11:9? Deuteronomy 4:15,16? Do you understand what is meant by image? idol? Do you worship any of these men that you listed above besides Jesus? Why not?

Do you understand that the Jews for centuries believed the Messiah to be a man not Israel, hence all the male Jewish claimants? Are you purposely being obtuse?

p.s. But it specifically states “salvation is from the Jews”, hence the Messiah would be a Jew not all of Israel.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas;5792431:

As for the link, I use the Tanakh. That is what I know to be true. So, can you reference that rather than sending me to a random site? I figure it should be common ground for us, no? (the tanakh, that is).

Peter Pan’s fairy syndrome is taking something that you don’t know to be true and believing it exists based on another person saying so. Since you don’t know anyone that has come back from the dead who can verify for us that your beliefs in heaven and hell are true, then I equate that to the Peter Pan’s fairy syndrome (granted, I just made up the title … but the concept is in the fairy tale).

If you’re interested, look at the research done by Gary Habermas. We don’t have the time or space to do it justice here.​

Peter Pan fairytale, as described by you, reminds me of the Big Bang hypothesis. Do you believe in that ‘Peter Pan’ fairytale?

 

[Dokimas]

And true what you say Josie … Christianity was started by Paul after Jesus had left the area. So, it is good to see you confirm that Christianity was not the faith of Jesus. In case you are unsure, it was Judaism that Jesus confirmed.

Christians was a term use to speak of followers of Jesus. It was originally used by ‘outsiders’. The original followers of Jesus were the disciples and about 120 others. That predated Paul’s involvement. Paul did not start ‘Christianity’.

 

[gearhead]

Christians was a term use to speak of followers of Jesus. It was originally used by ‘outsiders’. The original followers of Jesus were the disciples and about 120 others. That predated Paul’s involvement. Paul did not start ‘Christianity’.

I think he did. AFAICT, Paul was the person who first suggested that someone could be a Christian without being a Jew. With that, Christianity as a religion was born. Without it, you’d be a sect of Judaism.

 

[bosnian_muslim]

Hi,

I’m not sure if this is the right place to post this thread. If not, please move it to where it should go. Thank you

I either heard or read somewhere that Stephen Hawkings now believes that God created the universe. Can anyone help me with this? I have a 31 yr son who has decided that God doesn’t exist and believes heavily in science. I’m trying to possibly get him to see that even the scientists believe in God. He dismisses anybody that I bring up to try to convince him as saying that they are all wrong. I’m lost as to what to do now. He keeps saying he is “open minded” but dismisses everything I show him without really looking at it or studying it to see if it could be true. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Einstein believed in God

but like you christians believe in HIM(jesus and all that stuff)

 

[Dokimas]

I think he did. AFAICT, Paul was the person who first suggested that someone could be a Christian without being a Jew. With that, Christianity as a religion was born. Without it, you’d be a sect of Judaism.

For starters, you’re forgetting Acts 10.

 

[simplynoone]

Do you understand that the Jews for centuries believed the Messiah to be a man not Israel, hence all the male Jewish claimants? Are you purposely being obtuse?

p.s. But it specifically states “salvation is from the Jews”, hence the Messiah would be a Jew not all of Israel.

I find it ironic you are implicating me with being obtuse and yet, you still do not understand what it is Jesus was saying. It is clear… salvation being from the Jews only solidifies my point even further. (BTW … I am using the KJV of the NT). Whose hands were used to write the Tanakh that you even are blessed enough to have in your possession? Without those Jewish hands, you might not even have any knowledge of the true God at all other than what you see in Nature (but mankind has done well to ignore those evidences … so not much promise there). So, salvation, being knowledge (Hosea 4:6) is FROM the Jews. No arguments from me.

As for Jews believing for centuries that the Messiah ought to be a man … I don’t think the prophets did. Certainly not the ones whose words are used in the Tanakh. Isaiah being a prime example … Isaiah 49:3. Israel, the People, is named as the Servant and Israel is the Suffering Servant which almost everyone agrees is speaking of the Messiah. I know Israel is one in the same as the Servant of Isaiah 53 because all thoughout the Tanakh, it says so. Read the Jeremiah 30. The Messiah simply means the anointed and not the saviour. The anointed is Israel.

I am not being obtuse … I am being consistent with what is actually written.

 

[simplynoone]

simplynoone;5792538:

If you’re interested, look at the research done by Gary Habermas. We don’t have the time or space to do it justice here.​

Peter Pan fairytale, as described by you, reminds me of the Big Bang hypothesis. Do you believe in that ‘Peter Pan’ fairytale?

I think it is very likely. I don’t see how it is comparable to a fairy tale since we have the evidences of it even in our own Life today. It is very comparable to birth both in the physical sense and on the level of awareness.

… and suddenly, there is light! I see the Tanakh supports not only that hypothesis, but that of evolution as well. Have you carefully read Genesis 1 without the preconceived notions given to you by the Christian teachers? It does fully confirm what science is just now finding to be most likely truth. That is why I say I know the words in the Tanakh are truth and are of Life… because they speak accordingly.

 

[simplynoone]

Christians was a term use to speak of followers of Jesus. It was originally used by ‘outsiders’. The original followers of Jesus were the disciples and about 120 others. That predated Paul’s involvement. Paul did not start ‘Christianity’.

Acts 11:25-26… the disciples of Paul (not Jesus) were the ones who were called Christians. Jesus confirmed the Jews as those who were following him John 4:22. Thus, your own NT shows your error.

 

[simplynoone]

I think he did. AFAICT, Paul was the person who first suggested that someone could be a Christian without being a Jew. With that, Christianity as a religion was born. Without it, you’d be a sect of Judaism.

In fact, we can be assured that a Christian is NOT a Jew since Christians subscribe to a whole different set of beliefs and worship a different god.

 

[simplynoone]

I think it is very likely. I don’t see how it is comparable to a fairy tale since we have the evidences of it even in our own Life today. It is very comparable to birth both in the physical sense and on the level of awareness.

… and suddenly, there is light! I see the Tanakh supports not only that hypothesis, but that of evolution as well. Have you carefully read Genesis 1 without the preconceived notions given to you by the Christian teachers? It does fully confirm what science is just now finding to be most likely truth. That is why I say I know the words in the Tanakh are truth and are of Life… because they speak accordingly.

I wanted to add… remember, the Tanakh Tanakh was written from a human perspective. This is key to understanding the writings, ya know … to realize the writers were human (albeit brilliant, but still human). If you think for one second that you can fully understand God in all of His blessed Glory, then you are even further from understanding than I would have originally given you credit for.

I say this because God, in a metaphorical sense, gave birth to Life as we know it … thus, why I find the Tanakh to be brilliant … from our perspective, the words “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light” describes perfectly the big bang from a human perspective only with the gorgeous touch of a poet.

 

[Dokimas]

Acts 11:25-26… the disciples of Paul (not Jesus) were the ones who were called Christians. Jesus confirmed the Jews as those who were following him John 4:22. Thus, your own NT shows your error.

A disciple in the New Testament is a follower of Jesus. Why do you think the title ‘Christian’? If they were followers of Paul they’d be called paulians.​

Initially Jesus came to the Jews, but as a result of His death, He opened faith to all who will believe and trust in Jesus.

 

[simplynoone]

A disciple in the New Testament is a follower of Jesus. Why do you think the title ‘Christian’? If they were followers of Paul they’d be called paulians.​

Initially Jesus came to the Jews, but as a result of His death, He opened faith to all who will believe and trust in Jesus.

Disciple means “One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.” The disciples of Jesus were called Jews, thus why he said to the samaritan woman what is written in John 4:22. The disciples of Paul were called Christians according to your NT as I showed you. Besides, not all the disciples were of Jesus … John had disciples as well. Do you understand that “disciple” is a generic term not exclusively used for only the NT and/or the followers of Jesus?

And as for the latter part of what you say, Isaiah had already laid out the provisions of those terms … Isaiah 56. To join to the covenant and become a part of the People (Israel), there are specific conditions laid out. 1) acceptance of the WHOLE of the Law (Jesus agreed … matthew 5:19), 2) the circumcision of the flesh, 3) and perhaps most importantly, the circumcision of the heart (for this circumcision will confirm the two prior conditions). That’s from the Scriptures that Jesus taught out of and confirmed.

 

[Good_Fella]

I strongly disagree with the bit I’ve bolded. I find it rather empowering and purpose-giving to realize that if I want the world to be the way I envision it, it’s up to me to make it happen, and that there are no supernatural entities who will either render my efforts futile or who I can rely on to put things right.

Personally, I think that imagining that a world without God would be dismal ignores all the stunning beauty in the world that’s right there in front of you. I think it’s tragic when people can’t see it.

“Give me Christ or give me Hiroshima.”
Leonard Cohen

It’s all the stunning beauty of the world that reveals God’s existence. Man continues to disfigure it by making himself an end.

 

[simple_soul]

Disciple means “One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.” The disciples of Jesus were called Jews, thus why he said to the samaritan woman what is written in John 4:22. The disciples of Paul were called Christians according to your NT as I showed you. Besides, not all the disciples were of Jesus … John had disciples as well. Do you understand that “disciple” is a generic term not exclusively used for only the NT and/or the followers of Jesus?

And as for the latter part of what you say, Isaiah had already laid out the provisions of those terms … Isaiah 56. To join to the covenant and become a part of the People (Israel), there are specific conditions laid out. 1) acceptance of the WHOLE of the Law (Jesus agreed … matthew 5:19), 2) the circumcision of the flesh, 3) and perhaps most importantly, the circumcision of the heart (for this circumcision will confirm the two prior conditions). That’s from the Scriptures that Jesus taught out of and confirmed.

Dear Simplynoone,

Yes I believe Jesus not only taught the Old Law but He lived it and did it perfectly. He also fulfilled and completed the Old Law and then bacame the cornerstone of the New Law. And then yes I believe that some how this would be considered the New Israel which would then include all Mankind but I am not sure of all the Biblical quotes that would verify this so I will leave that in more knowledgalbe hands untill I can put it all together.

I am not sure how this thread came to the same subject that another thread did but I will let everyone here know that there is a slew of references of how Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and how the New Covenant was established. You can find it at the end of the thread titled “The Collaps of a Christian Pillar”. Look through the posts if you have not already done so.

What I am posting here is the same point I made on the other thread and have only gotten a few responces from it. So if anyone on this thread could add thier thoughts please do.

"What I am about to say are just my thoughts on this. I do not know if or even how it all may or may not “fit” what has been taught over the years. So anyone who may read this and have a better understanding of how this transition from Old Covenant to New Covenant was accomplished please help me to understand it better.

Yes Simplynoone, I have read Mathew 5:18-19. I have also read Luke 24:44 “And He said unto them. These are the words that I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”

As of today my understanding is that Jesus only taught and fulfilled the Old Covenant up until His death. In His Death the Old Covenant died with Him. In His Resurrection everything about Him was accomplished. Even death was put at His feet by His Father. In accomplishing this, He laid down the cornerstone for the New Testament. He charged the Apostles with establishing this New Covenant through the enlightenment and guidance of the Spirit of God.
Luke 24:49 “Mark this, I am sending upon you my Father’s promissed gift; so stay here in this city until you are armed with the power from above.”

If the Apostles took the perfect way that Jesus lived and taught the Old Covenant to help lay the foundations for the New Covenant then I could see how people would say and think that Jesus was teaching both Old and New Covenants. Also, if one believes the Spirit of God did indeed enlighten and guide the Apostles in their understanding of what the New Covenant is to be, then yes Jesus also taught them the New Covenant at the same time He was fulfilling the Old Covenant. But the enlightenment of the New Covenant did not start until after the Old Covenant had been fulfilled. I believe that St. Paul was indeed guided and enlightened by the Spirit of God and this made him very instrumental in helping the establishing and understanding of God’s New Covenant. So I guess one could call St.Paul’s teachings a “Replacement Theology” but I believe it was so much more than just a “Replacement Theology” It was the Theology that helped in the understanding of the Old Covenant and in establishing the New Covenant as was all of the Apostle’s teachings whether they were by words or traditions.

On a side note, I do not have a formal education in any of this but this is what I know in my heart to be true as far as my education and understanding goes and yes I accept what has been recorded and expanded upon of the Apostle’s teachings on faith in the reassurance of the greatness of the Great I AM. The all Knowing and all Powerful. The Alpha and Omega.
For when I put my trust in Him I find Him in my heart."

And I will add the one responce I received from this post by AdrianP. He added:

" I do have some thoughts and I think there was no Nazarene sect whatsoever. As moving from pre Moses LAWS to OLD Covenant was swift and people were not saying, lets keep 10% or 20% or 30% or 40% or 50% or 60% or 70% or 80 % or 90% of Old Laws and we pick and choose about OLD COVENANT what we want, here was the same swift transition to NEW COVENANT without picking and choosing .

As support for what I am saying I bring the Liturgy of Apostle James ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.ii.html and the Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.xii.iii.html and here we see clearly Holy Communion for eternal life and what is done today in Orthodox Church.

Apostles, majority of which were Jews, asked if circumcision should be kept and other things of concern to them and all these questions and by reading Bible you may see that the answer is no and you can see some miracles done by God.

I do think circumcision was replaced by baptism."

These early Liturgies bring a new understanding of Early Christianity and demolish Protestant claims about what was the beginning of Christianity"

I will end this post on the next one.

 

[simple_soul]

Rest of last post.

I would just like to end my thoughts with the fallowing:

The great I AM is capable of doing anything and everything and we may not understand why but He asks us to put our faith in Him. To trust Him and to trust Him is to love Him with our whole heart our whole mind and our whole soul.

Why can we not trust that the great I AM can do things that defy our logic and understanding and yet we know in our hearts these things are Truth and instead of pondering these things that defy our logic we try to understand the great I AM in a way that is logical to us? I can not answer that. What I do have faith in is the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ and through that sacrifice all of mankind is saved. His Kingdom is within each and every one of us. He wrote His Truth in our hearts so that if we wanted to find His Kingdom we could find it if we trust Him.

So with everything you hear and everything you read and everything you see ponder it in your heart and compare it to the Truth you have in your heart trust God in His time, not our time, He will speak to you there.

Always remember “Lord I believe help my unbelief” and “Faith can move mountains.”

Always praying and pondering