Are Jews looking for the Messiah?
Not those who are enlightened to what the Tanakh is clearly speaking. Those who are enlightened that they are the anointed of God are rather seeking ways to not only enlighten their own, but to shed forth light to the Gentiles.
Can a person follow the laws and believe the Messiah has come?
The Messiah is HERE with us. Those of the Jews who are aware of this are even better equipped to observe their laws and fulfill them as the Messiah than those who are still seeking to be “saved” by another.
The only ppl that I know who believe the Messiah has come are the Christians … that is sad, because it leaves you waiting on something that is impossible to happen (the resurrection of a dead man). At least the Jews who are still seeking for the messiah w/out awareness that it is their ownselves who are the anointed have hope for true salvation (knowledge).
Can the Messiah say something that shows that He is the fullfilment of the laws and boil them down to two laws?
Well, get this : I, though NOT the Messiah, can easily boil down the Law of God that applies to mankind to one easy to understand concept: “cause and effect.” When you understand that that is the universal Law of God for His Creation (the whole of it), then you will know that we all fulfill the Law even if we are not aware of it. When we die, we fulfill the whole of the law because for us to exist, we must have both a beginning and an end … then, once gone, the Law is fulfilled for each of us. Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 … to come back after having fulfilled the Law is impossible.
The laws you speak of, do you think God always intended to have them as they are or were they brought in to bring boundaries for us because our ‘hearts’ so easily go astray?
Even more, the Law of God is necessary because it is the only way we are able to exist. Without boundaries, we would not exist. THAT is the Reason for it and why it is good and not something we should be seeking to have abolished.
Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
This tells me that God brought in the law, not because He wanted sacrifice, but because we need them because of the hardness of our hearts.
It is odd when Christians show you KNOW logically that your beliefs are wrong, but still you are unable to actually acknowledge.
You said it yourself, that YOU need sacrifice because you are disobedient. Did you know that when you are “separated” from God, it is you who has left God to hide via blocking your mind from awareness of Life by the image of Jesus on the cross. That is nothing more than a placebo and not only does it not draw you closer to the knowledge of God, but it even keeps you from realizing the blessings in this Life while you have it.
God does not need your image of the sacrifice. He is not a like a man. Man requires it to clear their conscience … Moses gave the sacrificial laws to the slavish mentality of the Israelites for THEIR sakes and not because God needed it to accept them. That was the mercy of the Laws given via Moses … but notice that specific sins listed FIRST called for practical resolution (so as to teach them understanding) BEFORE they were able to use the sacrifice to clear their conscience. Now, Jews know better than to believe that the sacrifices were for God and that it was only ever for man.
Christians though not only have their perma-sacrifice in their mind, but even it is a man … Moses at least knew better than to stick a man on the list of acceptable sacrifices for guilt.
Ps 51:16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering.
1Sa 15:22 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.If we, by our nature, obeyed, we wouldn’t need to sacrifice. BTW, God provided His Sacrifice: Jesus of Nazareth.
Isa 1:11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.
Ho 6:6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Ps 54:6 I will freely sacrifice to You; I will praise Your name, O LORD, for it is good.
Ps 107:22 Let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare His works with rejoicing.
Ps 116:17 I will offer to You the sacrifice of thanksgiving, And will call upon the name of the LORD.
Jesus thought Hosea 6:6 important enough to bring out into the light for the People to think on (as seen in Matthew 12:7). Now, if you don’t mind to share with me what your thoughts are in regards to this passage of Hosea, I would like to hear them. Jesus had said “If you had known what it means…” … so it seems this might be something that many don’t actually understand the meaning of.
Let’s be more precise. A jury must believe a man (or woman) is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (unless there’s jury nullification of course … but I digress).
Historians have examined the question. If the numbers were as described in the Torah, Egypt would have lost half her population in the Exodus. The largest power at the time losing half its population would have caused a regional economic collapse. Yet there is absolutely no record such an event occurred (and the assumption is if this event were true, we would have evidence it happened, given all we’ve discovered about ancient Egypt and the other ancient societies in the region).Uhm, you are the one who made the claim that you can prove my religion is untrue. Prove that it didn’t happen.
I’m sure your religion is untrue. Where have I admitted otherwise?No you are not by your own admission.
What’s wrong with citing authority? Moreover, I generally agree with these conclusions. I do believe religion is the result of trying to make sense out of things we don’t yet understand.
part of religious indoctrination is making sure the flock never entertains contrary arguments or literature. Why do you think virtually every myth maker made it a point to anticipate objections and exploit fear and superstition to dissuade their followers from considering logical objections?
Well, we already know the Exodus narrative (essentially the story of Moses) is outside the range of historical possibility, so why should I believe your account of events when the evidence says otherwise?I would assume that you are referring to Akenaten; then, you should find it interesting that I agree with the analysis of Frued on this peculiar time in the history of the Pharoah’s. Strange is it not?, that suddenly monotheism pops up in the house of the Pharoah’s by a Pharoah who pushed hard to have the concept be recognized? Did you forget that Moses was adopted into the royal family?
Do you mean Sedar? What it means to me is the beginning of understanding. I think the best description for myself is in Deuteronomy 1:6-7a … “The LORD our God spake unto us in Horeb, saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount: Turn you, and take your journey…”
Let’s be more precise. A jury must believe a man (or woman) is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (unless there’s jury nullification of course … but I digress).
In other words, you have no right to say I am wrong since you have shown that you indeed have reasonable doubt to your own claimed belief that there is no God. You only can speculate as to why I would be so firm of my stance …
If the numbers were as described in the Torah, Egypt would have lost half her population in the Exodus
Really? You have only showed here to be ignorant of what historians are not ignorant of. You don’t have any knowledge of even secular history … only you are being vague for your agenda to convince me of something that will be impossible to convince me of. But keep trying!
Two or more million people would have formed a 150 mile long line. Yet we have no evidence the desert or the ancient societies we know lived along the route ever hosted such an astounding number of people.
At least read the Tanakh to know it before continuing this vagueness that shows clearly you have not even skimmed it, let alone searched to see if and WHAT truth the Tanakh is speaking to.
In other words – the Exodus is outside the range of reasonable historical possibility.
I beg to disagree and have addressed this on these boards. That you are claiming it is beyond the range of reasonable historical possibility only shows me your agenda is to be biased and not at all based on Reason.
When you get specific with me, then I will be more specific with you. Until then, I only see that you are playing games.
I’m sure your religion is untrue. Where have I admitted otherwise?
You can be sure until your heart is content and I will still know otherwise. As far as where you have admitted otherwise, that was in response to your claim that you knew there was not God. You have proved your ownself that you do not know it, but rather only want to believe it.
What’s wrong with citing authority? Moreover, I generally agree with these conclusions. I do believe religion is the result of trying to make sense out of things we don’t yet understand.
I can understand what you say here about religion and in a sense, it is why I personally don’t prefer that Judaism is called a religion but rather the way of People. Religion is no longer the way of a People that should be protected when it is used to oppress and suppress others. Judaism does not follow the path of what today’s world considers religion.
Nothing is wrong with citing authority … but “cite” it and tell me how you see that it is the more logical way to think. I can read it and for all you know, I have done so by now. That still does not tell me why you have chosen to believe that over something else. Why you choose… let’s think along these lines shall we?
Our ancient ancestors attributed lightening bolts to Thor and Zeus, today we understand where they come from. We know when it rains it wasn’t because we did a dance or slaughtered a goat – but our predecessors didn’t, so they did a dance or slaughtered a goat (and when by occasional chance it rained soon thereafter, they attributed it to god or the gods, when it didn’t rain they blamed their behavior).
I don’t disagree with what you say here. Those rituals acted as though we could change the effect of what is natural. Of course, now that we have more knowledge, are we not making it a reality that we can indeed change the natural effects by employing unnatural causes? We have only moved from a state of ignorance (but knowing it was somehow possible) to a state of knowing HOW it works so as to actually making it an actuality to change what is natural to the unnatural.
Great! how advanced we are.
First, I’ve never denied being a gentile, white, Anglo, American, raised Christian, bla, bla, bla. You said you “were there as well” … where exactly was that? I wasn’t ever exactly a bible pounder, and if you’re gonna tell me there aren’t dozens (maybe hundreds) of warnings in the Jewish Tanakh against idolatry, then I know you’re full of it.
Sorry (I forgot to properly qualify my statement). When I use the term “we” I’m usually referring to smart people
Well, you are right to assume I don’t have a PhD in Egyptology (even though I do have a doctorate degree). However, I researched the issue enough, and I have enough common sense to know – religion (and that means all religion) is stupid.The Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten introduced monotheism in the form of a religion surrounding the god Aten, the disc of the sun, originally an aspect of Ra. So the idea that Moses influenced Atenism sounds pretty far fetched (and that’s putting it mildly.
Just in what you have stated above it is clear that you haven’t done the proper research. You have skimmed something and figured it supported what you want to be truth. Keep researching … or don’t. If you do, you will understand clearly why I have judged you this way.
I hope you’re not considering a career in law
I studied these facts, and I know they’re true. Interestingly you continue to say I’m wrong (and even ignorant) yet you don’t cite any authority, you don’t even try and appeal to contrary facts … you just try and call me an idiot (in a round-about-way), yet again I know my facts are good, and at least I’m providing facts.Really? You have only showed here to be ignorant of what historians are not ignorant of. You don’t have any knowledge of even secular history … only you are being vague for your agenda to convince me of something that will be impossible to convince me of. But keep trying!
read it … debunked it … you can keep whining, keep trying to call me ignorant, dude I’m not the one who believes some old desert nomad split the red sea (or acted as a conduit for a god who did).
my agenda “is to be biased”? Well at least I know it’s not biased yet ay?
Hmmm, I’m the one who’s being specific, while your posts are a continuous rant and ad hominen attack. It’s OK though buddy, you’re not alone. Religion is Santa Claus for grown ups, and everybody wants to think they’re special. Christians are predestined, Jews are the chosen people, Muhammad was the last revelation, bla, bla, bla.
At least have the decency to use good grammar when your insulting me and misrepresenting my position.
Huh? Now you’re just being ridiculous.
Boy, that was a huge exercise in missing the point?Nothing is wrong with citing authority … but “cite” it and tell me how you see that it is the more logical way to think. I can read it and for all you know, I have done so by now. That still does not tell me why you have chosen to believe that over something else. Why you choose… let’s think along these lines shall we?
I don’t disagree with what you say here. Those rituals acted as though we could change the effect of what is natural. Of course, now that we have more knowledge, are we not making it a reality that we can indeed change the natural effects by employing unnatural causes? We have only moved from a state of ignorance (but knowing it was somehow possible) to a state of knowing HOW it works so as to actually making it an actuality to change what is natural to the unnatural.
I don’t need false pretenses to care about human life, or to have integrity. I’m good even though I don’t delude myself into thinking a god will rescue me from my mortality.Great! how advanced we are.
First, I’ve never denied being a gentile, white, Anglo, American, raised Christian, bla, bla, bla. You said you “were there as well” … where exactly was that? I wasn’t ever exactly a bible pounder, and if you’re gonna tell me there aren’t dozens (maybe hundreds) of warnings in the Jewish Tanakh against idolatry, then I know you’re full of it.
I was raised in Christianity myself and then, threw out the faith to claim atheism. This, however, I learned was a mislabel since, at the time, just like I wasn’t sure there was a God, neither was I sure there wasn’t. You fall under the same category that I did. I know that you aren’t sure, and though you are unaware of it just yet, you know as well that you aren’t sure. I can say this because your replies give you away as to not being as sure as you would have us believe.
And why would I tell you that there are not warnings in the Tanakh against idolatry? That is odd for you to say.
If you’re trying to say Jews are less indoctrinated (on average) compared to Christians, I might agree with you, but religious Jews (particularly orthodox Jews) are a whole different ballgame, and you strike me as a religious Jew.
I am always delighted to hear when others take me as a Jew, especially a religious one. That is my hope. As of now, I am Gentile who believes fully what is written in Psalm 78:5. Whilst I will go the Orthodox route of conversion, I am not as mystically minded or as strict in my way of thinking as many of the Orthodox tend to be. To me, I accept fully only what I know and question always any beliefs I may have at any given time.
You probably think Christianity is borderline polytheism; and I bet in different circles you might say something like Catholics are quasi-pagans (don’t worry, protestants say it to their face, so they’re used to it).
I think Christianity is a religion of fantasies and confusion. I don’t say anything about the Catholics elsewhere that I haven’t said here on this board. I don’t have issues with saying what I think and if others do, that is something they need to figure out why it might bother them.
I’m from New York City, where there’s no shortage of Jews. Half my friends growing up were Jewish. I know the spiel.
Good for you!
Sorry (I forgot to properly qualify my statement). When I use the term “we” I’m usually referring to smart people
What is your definition of a smart person? I prefer intelligence, whereas I think “smart” includes those who are able to regurgitate what they hear from others to make it sound as though it were their own thoughts. Intelligence is much different so as to go beyond the knowledge of what they are told by others.
Well, you are right to assume I don’t have a PhD in Egyptology (even though I do have a doctorate degree). However, I researched the issue enough, and I have enough common sense to know – religion (and that means all religion) is stupid.
That you say religion is stupid only goes to show that you haven’t researched enough to know. You think in terms of the fantastical when it comes to religion and that is definitely due to your difficulties in escaping the christian mentality you were brought up in.
And if I were to consider religion, it certainly wouldn’t be one of the desert religions.
To each his own, no?
I hope you’re not considering a career in law
You say this because you do not understand what laws should be used for and how they should be used wisely. If I were put on trial with the accusation of being wrong in saying that I know there is God, thus far you have done nothing to convict me of being wrong. Furthermore, in your replies thus far, you have only placed more than enough reasonable doubt into the minds of any honest jury so as to let me go on my way to live happily with the knowledge that I know there is God.
I studied these facts, and I know they’re true. Interestingly you continue to say I’m wrong (and even ignorant) yet you don’t cite any authority, you don’t even try and appeal to contrary facts … you just try and call me an idiot (in a round-about-way), yet again I know my facts are good, and at least I’m providing facts.
I haven’t said you are wrong and only that you haven’t researched it enough. And you haven’t provided any facts, only opinions. There are many opinions besides yours, you know.
read it … debunked it … you can keep whining, keep trying to call me ignorant, dude I’m not the one who believes some old desert nomad split the red sea (or acted as a conduit for a god who did).
You are making a joke, right? If not, I must have missed a post of yours because I don’t even see where you have TRIED to debunk it.
my agenda “is to be biased”? Well at least I know it’s not biased yet ay?
It is biased because you dismiss it altogether without even having given it adequate research to show that you don’t have an agenda. I am curious, have you ever studied the art of language?
Hmmm, I’m the one who’s being specific, while your posts are a continuous rant and ad hominen attack. It’s OK though buddy, you’re not alone. Religion is Santa Claus for grown ups, and everybody wants to think they’re special. Christians are predestined, Jews are the chosen people, Muhammad was the last revelation, bla, bla, bla.
Just to be clear, I am female. I only assume you don’t know this based on the terms you chose for me: “dude” … “buddy.” Generally those are used btw men and not directed toward ladies.
As for Jews being the “chosen” People, the way I understand it is more along the lines of “chosenness.” In other words, this is that the People chose to understand the way of the God and not so much that God chose them (as if He were a man to show favortism… I don’t believe such things). He was able to enlighten them to knowledge because of their willingnenss (and anyone has the same opportunity or not … by choice). I wasn’t sure at first until, in my studies of the Tanakh, I came across a key point for this being true … Genesis 15:1, "AFTER THESE THINGS… " then, Abraham knew the vision of the word of the LORD. So, in Genesis 18:19, we see why Abraham was able to be used of God.
It is a relationship of choice to set ones mind to know the way of God rather than to know the way of what man thinks God’s way is. That, then, is a progressive revelation rather than a concrete set of beliefs. The Laws given to the Jewish and those who accept them are not a burden and rather the key to understanding the Law of Cause and Effect (on so many more levels than one) and the testimonies are to keep those with understanding in line (ex: Ezekiel 18).
It is the lack of understanding the knowledge of what is contained in the Law (as well as the testimonies) that keep so many judging the Tanakh AND the Jewish People in the negative light. Hosea 4:6
At least have the decency to use good grammar when your insulting me and misrepresenting my position.
The only way I could misrepresent your position is if I were attempting to represent it. I am not.
I don’t need false pretenses to care about human life, or to have integrity. I’m good even though I don’t delude myself into thinking a god will rescue me from my mortality.
What is it to care for human life? and what do you think having integrity is?
And I don’t disagree that you are good; only that you are understandably upset still with Christianity, thus focusing your hurt toward religion in general and those who subscribe to it. When you actually realize why and how Christianity is a religion of illusion by understanding the purpose it came into existence and how it even did, you will start being able to put things into a more productive perspective and then gain focus and clarity as well as peace of mind. That is a journey worth being on as there is much potential for the possibilities in your life.
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I’m only going to respond here (the rest of it is just a deteriorating back and forth that doesn’t seem very worthwhile).
Were the Jews really “willing”? Isn’t the Tanakh really a story of Jewish unwillingness, virtual constant rebellion, and turning away from its god as soon as the going got a little tough?
Wow! Thank you for asking this because this is exactly the reason I fell so in love with the Jewish People. The Tanakh is DEFINITELY a story about their willingness to know God’s way! Questioning is always a part of knowing. To just accept something out of fear does not prove it is right … it only proves that one has actually given up actually knowing. Questioning is good … making mistakes only is bad if one throws up their hands to give up, but that is not what the People did. Every step they took only led them to further understanding.
Idolatry, as it is spoken of in the Tanakh, is so easy to fall into that it is no wonder they slipped into it occasionally given that it is when we imagine God to be a man (like a man). The only way we are able to teach understanding is by what we know … and thus, it is only natural that some mistake that so as to define God to be a man. That is why understanding was a “three steps forward, two steps back” process. It is evolution … only of our minds (that is, Judaism is a religion that is an evolution of the mind toward understanding the creation which ultimately is the only way we can ever know God … by our own limitations).
What most ppl assume is Judaism is not … Christianity is so far off from what Biblical Judaism is that once you understand this, there is no way you could at the same time believe that Christianity was a religion that stemmed from Judaism and rather you will know that Christianity was started with attempt to REPLACE the knowledge of Judaism.
Listen, whilst I don’t negate the historicity of the Tanakh, I don’t view it so literally. A book of Life isn’t something that speaks to the past, but to the present. That is the whole of the Tanakh for me … it speaks to what I know through my own experiences. When I rid myself of the Bible altogether to only accept what I know, I was shocked to be brought back to read my life (my experiences) in the pages. Then, I understood the language of the writings. Even further, I understood the reason for Chrisitianity. You can’t oppress those who understand Life. Thus, you must keep them ignorant … and what better way than to make them believe a doctrine of fantasies and death; and then, for those who aren’t so easily taken by fantasy, just call the words of Life “old” so as to distort them? Christianity killed more than one bird with their stone.
You can’t debunk, though, what a person knows. This is a book that was written by a People to speak to their People through time. Then, as I have stated before, you aren’t looking in the right direction for the understanding. Quit seeking to debunk it and just reject it already … until and unless, of course, you are given Reason not to. Until then, to try and debunk what you don’t understand to try to convince me I am wrong is going to be impossible. Do you really not understand me?
Of course I do reject it (why would I accept mythology as truth?). Anyway, so I should quit trying to debunk the bible, because you don’t view it literally?
I knew you would get to this argument eventually (I guess it’s the only remaining argument you have). Although, you sort of had a jumbled argument structure. Usually theists start by trying to argue the facts. After quickly realizing the absurdity of their factual claims, they move on to attacking motives, then finally they hit the personal attacks. You sprinkled the personal attacks in with your attempts at arguing the facts, then you saved my motives for last.
Of course I do reject it (why would I accept mythology as truth?). Anyway, so I should quit trying to debunk the bible, because you don’t view it literally?
NO! Keep debunking if you must. And keep trying to convince me I am wrong. If you can place that doubt in my mind, then I should not be claiming to know it, correct? So … show me the absolute truth that you have that proves me wrong in my love for this People’s written word.
OK, well that’s at least somewhat reasonable. So if it’s not literal then what is it?
It is literal to me. But having been where you are, am I wrong to know there is nothing I can do to convince you I am right? If you say I am right just based on my word, then I question your ability to think for yourself. I don’t doubt you are seeking for the truth … but I can not offer that to you. It is something that when it hits you, it will not hit you by my words!
My word for figurative is mythological. Just because you struggle to try and conform an ancient mythological text to the realities of your life doesn’t mean it makes sense.
Of course it will not make sense to anyone who it does not apply to … and if it applies to you, then you will see it in Time. I am not so ignorant to believe that I could convince you, and if I could … then I question your ability to think for yourself.
I knew you would get to this argument eventually (I guess it’s the only remaining argument you have). Although, you sort of had a jumbled argument structure. Usually theists start by trying to argue the facts. After quickly realizing the absurdity of their factual claims, they move on to attacking motives, then finally they hit the personal attacks. You sprinkled the personal attacks in with your attempts at arguing the facts, then you saved my motives for last.
When it comes to those who question the words of man, yes… there is no argument to use here. What are facts? Are your “feelings” not fact? Are your experiences not fact? They are … but only subjectively and to you, subjectively, if you can look back at those to see the pattern, then you can understand the writings of the Tanakh. But that is not something another can convince you of … and I don’t presume to be able to do such.
I only argue Christians, not to convince them that the Tanakh is truth, but to show them how the NT is contrary to what is said in the Tanakh, thus the NT can not be based in it and rather it was a means by those who sought to replace the knowledge of the Tanakh for those it applied to … they were seeking to keep them in ignorance of their past … of their People. Fortunately, that was impossible and the saving grace for those in whom the Tanankh applies is written in Jeremiah 31.
I assume you haven’t debated with many atheists (you’re just used to attacking Christians). But if you must know … it has nothing to do with Judaism per se (and its relationship with Christianity). Some people play X-Box in their free time, I play with theists. It’s sort of an intellectual sport, like scrabble.
I don’t bother with atheists since most of the so called atheists have admitted in the end to be much like I was when I renounced Christianity. Just tired of not knowing but having to pretend like they did. Then, I have even had many “atheists” thank me for understanding them and even come to respect Judaism through my views. Whether you will be open minded or not has no real effect over me since I have nothing in which to condemn you for. YOu don’t believe … okay … so what!!!
Sadly I’ve learned you guys are just as irrational as all other theists
How hypocritical of you!
BTW I have and do debate all sorts of theists. I’ve debated Buddhists, Muslims, Hindu’s, etc. It’s always a learning experience, because you really need to interact with people from these different faith perspectives to understand their approach (as you infer you can’t get it just from studying their histories or religious texts). But debunking any theistic system is always the same fairly straight forward process. Mythology is never anymore factually compelling than the mythology that preceded it.
Judaism is not at all based on mythology! Have you ever thought that the People Moses had to lead out were of a slavish and primitive mentality and thus, using natural occurences could be viewed as supernatural to them? Moses was, after all, said to be raised in an enviroment where such education was a given. Enlightenment to better the lives of a People is not deception if they are given the tools to find enlightenment their ownselves … thus the Laws given to them by the hand of Moses … to teach wisdom specifically catered to the slavish mentality.
Don’t assume that you are so aware of the Tanakh when you haven’t even bothered to read it in quite some time as you have admitted your ownself. Perspective is everything to us!
Science has essentially proven that at the beginning of time, everything was energy, but it was stable. There was no reason for that energy to have changed into the universe. If your son gets into anything like particle physics, he will find that there simply must be a God or a universal will of some sort, or the universe would simply not exist as matter.