Sterilization followed by confession?

[joclucsylv]

Fair enough.

But would you encourage your 200 lb bulimic daughter to continue those bulimic behaviors, 'cause it’s better that she’s doing that than dying?

that is an analogy I never understood either.
Bulima would eventually lead to death as well.

 

[LaSainte]

Actually not. It is not an ideal not to murder…it is not an ideal to go to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day…it is not an ideal to profess the Catholic Faith…to believe in Jesus Christ… it is not an ideal to love God and love ones neighbor…it not an ideal to live what is in the Catechism. It is the way of life. Yes one may sin at times…and there in the Catechism we find words directing us and informing us of the life of prayer and sacraments (confession! with repentance) to restore and sustain one…

The Catechism is a “sure norm” as Bl. John Paul II called it…

Now are there things there that describe degrees of Christian life that are not yet lived by all…yes of course…like the heights of prayer…but rejection of contraception and sterilization is not one of them…such is normative for all.

I understand where you’re coming from, but my analogy stands. And if onefollowed everything in the CCC to the letter, they would lead an essentially winless. Far from the “norm” I would say, but very idealistic.

 

[Bookcat]

I understand where you’re coming from, but my analogy stands. And if onefollowed everything in the CCC to the letter, they would lead an essentially winless. Far from the “norm” I would say, but very idealistic.

You would not be correct here. There is no question that the moral teachings found with in the Catechism of the Catholic Church are the norm for all… not an ideal.

And there is no exceptions clause in regards to contraception. Such is (as another Vatican document put it) to be considerd definitive and irreformable.

 

[PRmerger]

I would say that the Catecism is the ideal, and that you can’t always trust that someone, especially a child, will always perform to the ideal standards. That’s like insisting that they only get straight "A"s in school, and only giving them an application to Harvard University. If they happen to fall short of your standards, you have further crippled them by only giving them an application to a school they will never get into, insuring that they will end up with NO college education at all. We shoot for the ideal, but we have to have contingency plans.

As the Catechism contains the teachings of Christ, a better analogy would be this:

Since no one spells correctly 100% of the time, to teach that there is a correct way to spell, say, nomenclature, is to set everyone up for failure. It’s better that schools expect that people are going to fail in spelling and therefore have a contingency plan: let’s just say no one has to spell correctly.

And what this sort of paradigm leads to is chaos and confusion. Everyone spells words as they think they should be spelled. And there is no norm for the correct spelling.

 

[joclucsylv]

Absolutely I wouldn’t!

No more than if my daughter insisted on drinking poison would I say, “Well, if you insist on doing it, here’s an antidote: coat your stomach with milk of magnesia before you do it 'kay?”
OMgosh…you wouldn’t give her an antidote if she was going to drink poison?? Really?? You would rather let your daughter die of the poison??
So, you would let your 16 year old daughter get pregnant and suffer the consequences?? Wow!!

God gave us common sense as well.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, bulimia will kill you

'zactly. That’s why you don’t let someone just wallow in her illness.

Incidentally, ABC can kill you spiritually and nuptially as well.

But if she refused to eat better I might consider gastric bypass or lap band surgery. I would do whatever it took to save her life.

And did you know, LaSaint, that even after gastric bypass, if she continues to engage in her unhealthy eating she will not be cured?

 

[PRmerger]

that is an analogy I never understood either.
Bulima would eventually lead to death as well.

Right. And so does ABC. Testament: look at the culture of death that has arisen coeval to the promotion of artificial birth control.

 

[PRmerger]

OMgosh…you wouldn’t give her an antidote if she was going to drink poison?? Really?? You would rather let your daughter die of the poison??

As I said, I wouldn’t tell her, “Since you’re going to drink the poison anyway, here’s the antidote.”

That’s quite different from what you’ve proposed above.

Somehow, I think you’re* intentionally* being obtuse about my analogy?? Yes?

 

[Bookcat]

you wouldn’t give her an antidote if she was going to drink poison?? Really?? You would rather let your daughter die of the poison??
So, you would let your 16 year old daughter get pregnant and suffer the consequences?? Wow!!

God gave us common sense as well.

Your missing her point…

Let see…here are two of her daughters:

r 13yr :curtsey:
g 8yr :curtsey:

So if one of them g 8yr :curtsey: was going to drink poison she is to simply tell them to drink the antidote first etc???

:compcoff:

No. She is to stop them from drinking the poison! Antidotes may not work even…and to tell her “go ahead just drink the antidote first” is to help her to risk her life…perhaps even end it…such would not be the right choice…

:stretcher:

 

[PRmerger]

Let see…here are two of her daughters:

r 13yr :curtsey:
g 8yr :curtsey:

So if one of them g 8yr :curtsey: was going to drink poison she is to simply tell them to drink the antidote first etc???

:compcoff:

No. She is to stop them from drinking the poison! Antidotes may not work even…and to tell her “go ahead just drink the antidote first” is to help her to risk her life…perhaps even end it…such would not be the right choice…

:stretcher:

Yes! Common sense here from Bookcat! :aok:

 

[1ke]

I also just found out that there is more to infallibility than papal infallibility. So basically it was just sort of dumped on me that everything I have ever planned and wanted for my life (my degree, my goals, the way I have always wanted to raise my family) might as well be thrown in the toilet because now I’m just relegated to being “open” to having more kids than I can afford, more kids than I ever wanted, to giving up everything I have r dreamed of to possibly ending up a mother of 6 crying myself to sleep every night wondering what the heck happened to my life.

This is just completely untrue.

I’m not sure if this is you innocently misunderstanding the Church’s teaching, you purposely misconstruing it to make you feel better about your choices, or influence of others or books you’ve read. But, I hope you will open up your heart and your ears to the Church’s actual teaching on this matter.

I JUST don’t believe that ABC is a sin. I don’t. I think God wants us to be the best parents we can be to the kids we have, to the kids we want, and I believe that He also wants us to follow our OWN dreams and fulfill our own passions, not just throw our whole lives in the trash and live in misery because we can’t stop having kids we don’t want.

Well, first this isn’t what the Church teaches and secondly contraception is not necessary in order to space children.

So basically, I am in a position of feeling like I have to go AGAINST everything I feel to be true, go AGAINST everything I have ever wanted for my life, go AGAINST what I know to be best for my own mental health and my family, to follow a teaching I think is complete bunk.

You’ve set up a false dilemma.

And I cannot for the life of me, no matter how hard I TRY, believe in this teaching.

But must nevertheless assent to it.

I know that was excruciatingly long. Thanks for reading

I can hear your pain through your post. But I hope you will come to realize that much of this agony has absolutely nothing to do with what the Church actually teaches.

And, also, have you considered talking to a counselor about your issues bonding with your children? There could be some underlying medical or other issues that are treatable.

 

[Bookcat]

Incidentally, ABC can kill you spiritually and nuptially as well.

Not something that would be in ones best interest…

 

[1ke]

That said, your 16,17 or 18 or 19 year old daughter has a boyfriend and no matter how much you counsel against sex before marriage and told her that it was mortal sin and that she was condemning herself to hell, she has told you that she loves her bf and will be physical with him anyway. Would you sit there and tell your daughter that she needs to watch her cycle and use NFP??? I surely wouldn’t.
highway. There are SO many grey areas in life. Quoting the Catechism is one thing. Living in real life situations is another.

I would continue to teach her the truth about sexuality.

I would not teach her false lies that using contraception is OK. And, no, NFP is not for fornicators, it is for use within marriage.

Sending a mixed message is the WORST thing any parent can do. It tells the child that the Church’s teaching does not apply to them. It makes Church teaching lip-service only.

Nudge nudge, wink wink. No way would I **ever **do that to my child.

 

[FCEGM]

“Say, if ye love Allah, follow me. Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.” Surah 3:31

“And He is forgiving, the Loving.” Qu’aran 85:14

These speak of conditional love, not of the God Whose very Nature is Love.

 

[joclucsylv]

When moral choices are black and white even a person with a fairly unformed conscience can discern the proper action. The grey areas are what we need the Church for. If we abandon her moral teaching every time it is challenged by secular society we might just as well lie down and give up. The CCC is not a novel about La La land it is a guide for navigating the real world.

So you would let your 16 year old daughter get pregnant? That is what you are saying?

She tells you she is going to have sex one way or the other. There is absolutely nothing you can do in your power to stop her. You wouldn’t tell her to at least protect herself??
I just don’t get that.

 

[joclucsylv]

I would continue to teach her the truth about sexuality.

I would not teach her false lies that using contraception is OK. And, no, NFP is not for fornicators, it is for use within marriage.

Sending a mixed message is the WORST thing any parent can do. It tells the child that the Church’s teaching does not apply to them. It makes Church teaching lip-service only.

Nudge nudge, wink wink. No way would I **ever **do that to my child.

So your child would get pregnant at 16. 1ke…I don’t get that.

 

[joclucsylv]

Yes! Common sense here from Bookcat! :aok:

And your daughter gets pregnant and has to raise a child at 16 years old. NICE!!!

I don’t expect any of you to admit that you would tell your daughters to protect themselves. You all have a reputation to keep on this board.

 

[LaSainte]

This is just completely untrue.

I’m not sure if this is you innocently misunderstanding the Church’s teaching, you purposely misconstruing it to make you feel better about your choices, or influence of others or books you’ve read. But, I hope you will open up your heart and your ears to the Church’s actual teaching on this matter.

The teaching of the Church is that I can never, ever take having more kids off the table, no matter how sick, tired, depressed, etc. I may be. Like I said, I always and forever have to be open to more children

Well, first this isn’t what the Church teaches and secondly contraception is not necessary in order to space children.
I don’t want to “space” them. I never want to have another one, ever again

You’ve set up a false dilemma.

No, I have to be willing to let my life be ruined and to be willing to throw my education, my dreams and my own values that I have for MY FAMILY down the drain if I happen to get pregnant again.

But must nevertheless assent to it.
If I don’t believe it cam from God, why would I do hat?

I can hear your pain through your post. But I hope you will come to realize that much of this agony has absolutely nothing to do with what the Church actually teaches.

And, also, have you considered talking to a counselor about your issues bonding with your children? There could be some underlying medical or other issues that are treatable.

I don’t have any problems bonding with my children. My son is the best thing hat has ever happened to me and I love him more than I could have ever imagined. Hopefully, I will bond with his one as well. I just don’t want any more of them. I am very self-aware and I know my limitations.

 

[LaSainte]

you wouldn’t give her an antidote if she was going to drink poison?? Really?? You would rather let your daughter die of the poison??
So, you would let your 16 year old daughter get pregnant and suffer the consequences?? Wow!!

God gave us common sense as well.

Your missing her point…

Let see…here are two of her daughters:

r 13yr :curtsey:
g 8yr :curtsey:

So if one of them g 8yr :curtsey: was going to drink poison she is to simply tell them to drink the antidote first etc???

:compcoff:

No. She is to stop them from drinking the poison! Antidotes may not work even…and to tell her “go ahead just drink the antidote first” is to help her to risk her life…perhaps even end it…such would not be the right choice…

:stretcher:

Bookcat, you can control an 8 year old. You cannot monitor a 16 year old 24 hours a day. Tell her to just abstain and give her no alternatives and get ready to be grandpa Bookcat.

 

[cviolette]

And your daughter gets pregnant and has to raise a child at 16 years old. NICE!!!

I don’t expect any of you to admit that you would tell your daughters to protect themselves. You all have a reputation to keep on this board.

You don’t support your daughter’s bad decision and become an accomplice in her sin. By discussing birth control, you are giving her a green light. By telling her that she should not be having sex until she is married and supervising her activities, you are giving her time to make the correct decision and teaching her right from wrong.

Also, what 16 year old girl doesn’t already know about bc and how to get it?

If my daughter was to become pregnant, I would be there to help raise my grandchild. Every child is a blessing.

I tell my boys that anytime you decide to have sex there is a chance of being a daddy.