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Corki
Guest
At the point he is Baptized into the Church all sin is washed away. He need do nothing more. Just try to be the best father and husband he can.
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silicasandra
Guest
My understanding is his baptism clears away all his previous sins. He wouldn’t have to confess his vasectomy every time he has sex with his wife; nor would he have to reverse it.
I have heard on some threads on CAF that some catechumens are encouraged to go to Confession as part of RCIA before they are baptized. I was told this wasn’t necessary when I went through RCIA so I never confessed anything before I was baptized (including my prior use of ABC). Maybe I was supposed to??
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Bookcat
Guest
He is will repent and be baptized and all sins will be forgiven …washed away. He would look at it as with all sin …something he has been forgiven and that now he has turned his back on…
There is no obligation to seek to correct such…due to the pain and not the greatest hope of success in reversing it…
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joclucsylv
Guest
I guess I have a little slow at learning all this.
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Paul1961
Guest
The root of the original post and the related debates of over 400 posts is the churches claim of infallibility. Everything comes down to this issue.
It boils down to, Do you believe the church incapable of err?
I have never understood why people need to make something “perfect”. Can’t it be good without being perfect? Jesus certainly didn’t have a group of “perfect” apostles. And we certainly have not had perfect descendants of those apostles.
The church is not perfect; has never been perfect; and never will be perfect.
It boils down to, Do you believe the church incapable of err?
I have never understood why people need to make something “perfect”. Can’t it be good without being perfect? Jesus certainly didn’t have a group of “perfect” apostles. And we certainly have not had perfect descendants of those apostles.
The church is not perfect; has never been perfect; and never will be perfect.
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Bookcat
Guest
Actually such is not the case
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samiam1611
Guest
How about this: get sterilized, don’t receive communion (bc your confession would be invalid right, since you don’t really feel bad?), but continue going to mass and praying the rosary and whatever other Catholic-y things you feel like doing. Then maybe some day the Church’s teaching on sterilization/procreation will sink in, and then you can receive communion again.
or, get sterilized or use a long term contraceptive like the copper IUD, which doesn’t affect ovulation - and use NFP too. Monitor your BBT, mark your calendar, whatever. Abstain during the time that you would be fertile, if you did not have an IUD or had your tubes tied or occluded. This way, you not only lower the chance of getting pregnant even further, but you also can also practice self-discipline, express your love for each other in other ways, grow together in holiness by praying together, blah blah blah. Basically, all of the benefits of NFP with none of the worry. You also needn’t worry about the possible abortifacient nature of the IUD bc you wouldn’t be having sex when you were ovulating, nor would you have to worry about ectopic pregnancy for the same reason.
Also, I think this will give you a leg-up to get into heaven - if you die before you can get absolved of the sin, say, you and 5 other women are in line to get into heaven or hell and the other 4 did not use NFP on top of their sterilization, God might be like, well, at least you gave it a really good effort, those 4 didn’t - heaven for you, hell for them!!!
or, get sterilized or use a long term contraceptive like the copper IUD, which doesn’t affect ovulation - and use NFP too. Monitor your BBT, mark your calendar, whatever. Abstain during the time that you would be fertile, if you did not have an IUD or had your tubes tied or occluded. This way, you not only lower the chance of getting pregnant even further, but you also can also practice self-discipline, express your love for each other in other ways, grow together in holiness by praying together, blah blah blah. Basically, all of the benefits of NFP with none of the worry. You also needn’t worry about the possible abortifacient nature of the IUD bc you wouldn’t be having sex when you were ovulating, nor would you have to worry about ectopic pregnancy for the same reason.
Also, I think this will give you a leg-up to get into heaven - if you die before you can get absolved of the sin, say, you and 5 other women are in line to get into heaven or hell and the other 4 did not use NFP on top of their sterilization, God might be like, well, at least you gave it a really good effort, those 4 didn’t - heaven for you, hell for them!!!
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sw85
Guest
For all the disorder you’re inviting into your life, you may as well as be, indeed.
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Rence
Guest
Ok, I’ll bite. God is perfect yes. He’s the epidomy of perfection. Is the Church God too now? how is the Church perfect when it is managed by humans and humans who make mistakes? Yeah, I know, Jesus started the Church, but he left it in the care of humans, humans that would have the help of the Holy Spirit, but who were humans anyway. How is the Church perfect? The Pope himself is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra…so how is the Church perfect? When we talk about Church what do we mean? Do we mean the community that Jesus started? or some perfect thing out there?Actually such is not the case
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PRmerger
Guest
You seem to be under the misapprehension that the Church claims to be perfect. She does not.
The charism of infallibility applies to the Orthodoxy, not to the Orthopraxy of the persons who claim to embrace it.
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FCEGM
Guest
The Church is One Mystical Person of Christ and Body in a supernatural union of Grace by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in three states: of blessedness in Heaven, of purification after death, of visible communion on earth. This means that Christ dwells in all and only in all that comes from Him (what He joins to Himself), but not in any of what contradicts Himself; thus the Church is perfection because Christ is Perfect. This is why there can not be a facile identification of the Church with its visible members with all the actions of all or any of its members. All that comes from the sin of its visible members, of course, is not the Church, because it departs from union with Christ. This is why one can say that every member of the Visible Church sins, but the Church does not sin. Thus in the late John Paul II’s “apology” we see clearly that he does not identify the Church herself with the sins of which her sons and daughters, however lofty their position, have committed.
Thus the Church is Holy, not sinful as its members are (taken individually or materially, for there are many dead members of the Visible Church who are only materially, i.e., externally, joined to the Church and to Christ, who nevertheless have the opportunity of being revived, especially by the prayers and sacrifices of the alive members.)
Thus only what is done out of this union with Christ in us is the Church, such as teaching on faith or morals by the Magisterium, the sacramental life of the Church, the acts of virtue done in grace by the faithful, above all the lives of heroic sanctity of the Saints. All this is Christ IN US who cooperate with Him. The errors in teaching by individuals or sections of the Church, the moral failures, the exercises in poor judgment, the omission of doing good when the circumstances require it, all this is done not by virtue of union with Christ, but by virtue of sinners’ own initiative as first cause themselves, and thus not by the Church. It takes divine faith that the Church is this Great Mystery of union between Christ and His Body to see this.
This from Dominus Iesus is helpful on the point:
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ddarko
Guest
What the church teaches its faithful is infallible.
The point is that every person is to look to the church for guidance with respect to matters of faith and morals. The role of the church is to guide the faithful.
The whole point of being a Roman Catholic is to accept the authority of Scripture, Tradition and the Church. Without even a single one of those three, you are left with uncertainty on what to believe as Christianity. That is why Christ guides the church so that it may guide his flock to the kingdom of heaven to be with him and will always be the guiding light to those who are lost as to what to believe.
God Bless
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LaSainte
Guest
Bull. Read it again. Ike started he debate. Pay attention.
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Bookcat
Guest
He noted that it would was not and never would be…
Catechism:
757 "The Church, further, which is called ‘that Jerusalem which is above’ and ‘our mother’, is described as the spotless spouse of the spotless lamb. It is she whom Christ ‘loved and for whom he delivered himself up that he might sanctify her.’ It is she whom he unites to himself by an unbreakable alliance, and whom he constantly ‘nourishes and cherishes.’"149
The Church - perfected in glory
769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182
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LaSainte
Guest
I’m sorry, I should have said that Ike and THEN you LittleOne are the ones who started the debate. You started it when you began discussing how the Church was not nor could ever be in error re: contraception or anything else, etc. THAT was the start of the debate.
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LaSainte
Guest
Just an aside-what if only SOME of the semen ends up in the vagina? I have heard that for collecting a sperm sample, you can use a condom with a hole poked in it so that SOME of the sperm goes in the vagina and the rest is reserved? What makes this o.k.? Is this not considered a contraceptive act because a little bit of semen got to the right place?
I know that intent is not an issue with contraception, otherwise NFP would be illicit, so what’s the deal here?
I know that intent is not an issue with contraception, otherwise NFP would be illicit, so what’s the deal here?
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samiam1611
Guest
Yeah you know, I once read on this forum someone whose wife was going through menopause and she did not want to have sex but they were not closed to life so he would do…stuff…and then put a little bit in her, in order to keep the procreative aspect intact!
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Irishgal49
Guest
Don’t do it! I remember getting really mad because I was doing something the church taught was wrong. I stomped off and 11 years later I came back.
I was morally, spiritually, and mentally bankrupt. I was totally broken, soaked in sin and hating myself so bad I didn’t even want to live anymore.
I figured my ONE THING I refused to budge on (or even try --or even talk to a priest about it) wouldn’t cause a problem but it became a slippery slope and I just sank deeper and deeper and was hurting pretty badly.
I knelt in the back of a church sobbing all the way through the service because I missed the body and blood of my Savior and also my Blessed Mother. I am still struggling to forgive myself. IT’S NOT WORTH IT. Disagreeing on “ONE ISSUE” can result in the slippery slope of sin and destruction. Satan just looks for that one little loophole to get in and destroy you. Don’t let it happen. I am living proof that rebellion and anger and defiance of the Church and it’s teachings will only lead to misery and total regret.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes it has been offered as a moral way for those who are infertile to collect a sperm sample for testing.
During the normal marital act the a “semi-permable” sheath us used to collect some while leaving the act open to life. And of course It is only for such sperm testing.
As to your note on intention …it should be noted that it does enter in…a contraceptive intent is a sinful intent. As well as contraception is a different moral object then NFP.
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LaSainte
Guest
I don’t get this. Why would his be only for sperm testing? What makes this licit and other acts where only some semen enter the vagina illicit? I don’t see how this follows at ALL from Church teaching.
The act must be ordered to procreationand open to life, NO EXCEPTIONS, even if the mother’s life is in danger. Thus, the above act (sex with a condom with a hole in it) MUST be open to life. The act must also be unitive, with no exceptions, so the above act mist also be unitive. So since said act is both unitive AND procreative, then what is the problem with it?
Now if the answer is that the intent is contraceptive, what if that is not the case? What if, for example, the man has a problem with pre-mature ejaculation or something like that and the condom helps this? Can he poke a hole in it and use it then? If not, why not?
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