Sterilization followed by confession?

[Bookcat]

I don’t get this. Why would his be only for sperm testing? What makes this licit and other acts where only some semen enter the vagina illicit? I don’t see how this follows at ALL from Church teaching.

The act must be ordered to procreationand open to life, NO EXCEPTIONS, even if the mother’s life is in danger. Thus, the above act (sex with a condom with a hole in it) MUST be open to life. The act must also be unitive, with no exceptions, so the above act mist also be unitive. So since said act is both unitive AND procreative, then what is the problem with it?

Now if the answer is that the intent is contraceptive, what if that is not the case? What if, for example, the man has a problem with pre-mature ejaculation or something like that and the condom helps this? Can he poke a hole in it and use it then? If not, why not?

It is considered by those in orthodox moral theology circles as licit. (thus not contrary to the nature etc of the marital act)

During the normal marital act the a “semi-permable” sheath is used to collect some while leaving the act open to life via the perferations at the end. And of course It is only for such sperm testing.

A persons attempt to “use such” to reduce the possibility of conception would involve a contraceptive intent. It would be a contraceptive act and sinful.

This is for medical purposes…to assist persons in the procreative aspect.

As for the last part of the question…one could propose such use perhaps (if it were actually medically useful to assist the marital act) to orthodox moral theologians…though they may have already addressed such (I do not know that such would be a real treatment for such). It may well be licit for one can I would think just open the sheath entirely at the end (again I leave such to the full experts…I have a degree in theology and have studied moral theology …including sexual and medical but I am not a moral theologian…though if as I say the entire end is opened…and such would be a real treatment…then it perhaps can be viable.).

 

[Bookcat]

Various treatments can “assist” the marital act…but not replace it (such as IVF etc)

 

[LaSainte]

It is considered by those in orthodox moral theology circles as licit. (thus not contrary to the nature etc of the marital act)

During the normal marital act the a “semi-permable” sheath is used to collect some while leaving the act open to life via the perferations at the end. And of course It is only for such sperm testing.

A persons attempt to “use such” to reduce the possibility of conception would involve a contraceptive intent. It would be a contraceptive act and sinful.

This is for medical purposes…to assist persons in the procreative aspect.

As for the last part of the question…one could propose such use perhaps (if it were actually medically useful to assist the marital act) to orthodox moral theologians…though they may have already addressed such (I do not know that such would be a real treatment for such). It may well be licit for one can I would think just open the sheath entirely at the end (again I leave such to the full experts…I have a degree in theology and have studied moral theology …including sexual and medical but I am not a moral theologian…though if as I say the entire end is opened…and such would be a real treatment…then it perhaps can be viable.).

So trying not to be too graphic, what would be the teaching on ejaculation itself taking place outside of the vagina, but as a continuation of the same marital act making its way there without delay?

This would still be unitive and procreative with no contraceptive intent, would it not?

 

[Bookcat]

I think we should not get into all this…for the reason you mentioned…thanks for the reminder. If you want to pm that is fine.

 

[formerlysure]

Rence and 1Ke - I just want to thank both of you for taking a huge burden off of me by taking the time to answer my questions.

 

[fm1982]

After reading through many many posts I will share my story.

I was married fairly young by today’s standards and 9 months later was blessed with my first child. Wasn’t really considered a blessing by family members, but we considered the child a blessing. Twenty months later child 2, 18 months after that, child 3, and 27 months after that (only because she didn’t ovulate until about month 18 after child 3) number 4 will be born.

While we are both Catholic and trying to follow the teachings of the Church, she wants me to get snipped to prevent more children. 4 in 5 1/2 years is a lot, especially when you are on your own. We have discussed the situation and my hesitance over and over again, but the attitude in our community boils down to “your kids, your problem”, including in our parish. Unfortunately we are finding everywhere we turn, people are commenting on our choices negatively and telling us to deal with it. How many times can you be told this without being completely demoralized? We have no family support, most “friends” will only help in an emergency (pretty much death in the family) and are trying our best to do it on our own. Our supports are limited and this causing us a lot of difficulty. We can’t afford to “buy” support, even babysitting for an evening is out of our range. It is sad when raising children feels so much like an obligation and not the joy it should be. Any more will just push that stress level up even more. How will that be fair to any of the children?

We have gone through some serious stress and family trauma, leading to real depression on her part. I’ve held up, barely, but there is only so much we can take. Neither set of grandparents care much for the grandchildren or helping out, 3 is already too many. In fact, I was bequeathed some money from a family member through a will - one of my children’s grandparents is fighting us in court to add that relatively small sum to their fortune of literally millions rather than see us get some help. My children’s uncles don’t care or help, too nervous/busy to help out. My wife will need to go on medication for the mental illness soon after the baby is born - I’m not sure of the nursing consequences - in order to function. Right now things are incredibly rough, fortunately I have some time off work right now to help out. The person I married is not there anymore, at least not without the proper chemicals being supplied through medicine. I don’t think that our marriage would survive me rejecting the surgery followed by another pregnancy. So now the question becomes, do I not get the surgery and condemn myself to either a divorce (either because of my choice or my lack of strength in dealing with a depressed wife) and raising 5 kids in a split arrangement, or do I go ahead with the surgery, let her take the medicine and treatment she needs to be a good mother and wife and raise our kids together in a happier marriage?

These questions are questions I continue to reflect on through much prayer. These questions are ones which cause me great conflict and pain. It is difficult and painful to deal with the outbursts at myself and the children, criticism, her lack of self-worth (she can hear 100 compliments to 1 negative and will perseverate on the negative for days). I need to make a choice for my family’s sake and to be 100% honest the only reason I would even consider holding back now would be to “hedge my bets” in the case of things falling apart. Not exactly a noble reason for doing so.

What does the Church say here? Don’t do ABC, get divorced, possibly push a person over the edge to suicide and leave 4 or 5 kids without a mother? Do ABC, pick up the pieces, working on recovery and raise our children in the best way possible? There are so many shades of grey, the Bishops and Pope do not know the pain and turmoil in my heart at this time, only God does. The loving, forgiving, understanding God that I hope to join in Heaven regardless of the choice I make.

God knows we are not perfect, even though some on these boards are quite willing to project that they are all knowing and perfect. I find the lack of charity on the part of many here less than encouraging and I pray that you will find the gift of empathy and understanding rather than the harsh judgement you so quickly pass on those who are struggling with these issues.

Who am I or anyone else to judge other families on the number of children they choose and the lifestyle they want? If you can handle 12 kids, that’s awesome, I wish I had that conviction and strength, but I simply don’t. If you can handle 1 or 2, do the best job you can with them and don’t let others push you around or preach to you that what you are doing is wrong.

I’m not trying to be some unbelieving heretic, just trying to shed light on my situation and feelings towards this discussion. For the most part these decisions are not taken lightly and to say that God won’t forgive you is so wrong I cannot even express it in words.

 

[Little_One0307]

I’m sorry, I should have said that Ike and THEN you LittleOne are the ones who started the debate. You started it when you began discussing how the Church was not nor could ever be in error re: contraception or anything else, etc. THAT was the start of the debate.

I stated the Truth becuase I was responding to your OP , it was you who disssented. How can stating the truth start a debate? You could have refrained from speaking. All that was stated was the contraception was a mortal sin and that the Church could not err in doctrinal errors concerning Faith and Morals… In fact, at that time I did not know that you were saying a personal issues, that was not revealed until later in the thread.

It was post #22 that started things rolling. Once you shared this.

“The Church is only infallible concerning matters of revealed Truth (or matters that are necessary for our understanding of a revealed Truth) that concern faith and morals. I have yet to see a convincing argument that the total ban on contraception is in any way a matter of revealed Truth.”

I tried to work it from the angle that the Church could not err in matter of doctrine of Faith and Morals, and yes contraception finally did get involved in here. It was post #30 that I began to address contraception as a doctrine. Even though I did mention contraception in an earlier post, it was remarked to the orginal post and not directed to you per say. It was not until post #64 that anyone became aware of your personal situation involved in the thread. I am sure if you had just gone ahead and listed your personal situation in the OP, much of the debate may have not been present. I would have probably been much more empathetic with you, [though I would never condone what you are choosing to do in contradiction to Church Teaching and would encourage you to pray for the grace to follow it.]

Looking back over the thread, I probably would not have replied had it not been for post #22. After that things got really heated when it was finally revealed as to why you posted the original post [again post #64]. If I have acted uncharitiable in my words I ask for your forgivness. I cannot apologize for my still standing firm with the Magisterium of the Church and presenting time and time again that Contraception is wrong according to the Teaching of the Church, that the Church cannot err in matters of Doctrine of Faith and Morals, and one cannot receive Absolution without contrition and ect.

Life is not easy. And the marriage vocation cannot be easy. You are in my prayers. I pray that you will have the graces and strenghtes that you are in most need of in coming to an acceptance and practicing of the Teaching of the Church and to be at peace.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Don’t do it! I remember getting really mad because I was doing something the church taught was wrong. I stomped off and 11 years later I came back.

I was morally, spiritually, and mentally bankrupt. I was totally broken, soaked in sin and hating myself so bad I didn’t even want to live anymore.

I figured my ONE THING I refused to budge on (or even try --or even talk to a priest about it) wouldn’t cause a problem but it became a slippery slope and I just sank deeper and deeper and was hurting pretty badly.

I knelt in the back of a church sobbing all the way through the service because I missed the body and blood of my Savior and also my Blessed Mother. I am still struggling to forgive myself. IT’S NOT WORTH IT. Disagreeing on “ONE ISSUE” can result in the slippery slope of sin and destruction. Satan just looks for that one little loophole to get in and destroy you. Don’t let it happen. I am living proof that rebellion and anger and defiance of the Church and it’s teachings will only lead to misery and total regret.

Amen. What a beautiful post. I am so sorry to hear you went though that, but praise be to Jesus God that you are back in the Church. God bless you for posting that, that could not have been easy.

Thank you so much for sharing this.

 

[Fran65]

What does the Church say here? Don’t do ABC, get divorced, possibly push a person over the edge to suicide and leave 4 or 5 kids without a mother? Do ABC, pick up the pieces, working on recovery and raise our children in the best way possible?

I am so sorry that you are in such a terrible place. I would suggest talking to a priest if you haven’t already. He may be able to clarify things with you and put your mind at rest.

God bless your family.

 

[joclucsylv]

After reading through many many posts I will share my story.

I was married fairly young by today’s standards and 9 months later was blessed with my first child. Wasn’t really considered a blessing by family members, but we considered the child a blessing. Twenty months later child 2, 18 months after that, child 3, and 27 months after that (only because she didn’t ovulate until about month 18 after child 3) number 4 will be born.

While we are both Catholic and trying to follow the teachings of the Church, she wants me to get snipped to prevent more children. 4 in 5 1/2 years is a lot, especially when you are on your own. We have discussed the situation and my hesitance over and over again, but the attitude in our community boils down to “your kids, your problem”, including in our parish. Unfortunately we are finding everywhere we turn, people are commenting on our choices negatively and telling us to deal with it. How many times can you be told this without being completely demoralized? We have no family support, most “friends” will only help in an emergency (pretty much death in the family) and are trying our best to do it on our own. Our supports are limited and this causing us a lot of difficulty. We can’t afford to “buy” support, even babysitting for an evening is out of our range. It is sad when raising children feels so much like an obligation and not the joy it should be. Any more will just push that stress level up even more. How will that be fair to any of the children?

We have gone through some serious stress and family trauma, leading to real depression on her part. I’ve held up, barely, but there is only so much we can take. Neither set of grandparents care much for the grandchildren or helping out, 3 is already too many. In fact, I was bequeathed some money from a family member through a will - one of my children’s grandparents is fighting us in court to add that relatively small sum to their fortune of literally millions rather than see us get some help. My children’s uncles don’t care or help, too nervous/busy to help out. My wife will need to go on medication for the mental illness soon after the baby is born - I’m not sure of the nursing consequences - in order to function. Right now things are incredibly rough, fortunately I have some time off work right now to help out. The person I married is not there anymore, at least not without the proper chemicals being supplied through medicine. I don’t think that our marriage would survive me rejecting the surgery followed by another pregnancy. So now the question becomes, do I not get the surgery and condemn myself to either a divorce (either because of my choice or my lack of strength in dealing with a depressed wife) and raising 5 kids in a split arrangement, or do I go ahead with the surgery, let her take the medicine and treatment she needs to be a good mother and wife and raise our kids together in a happier marriage?

These questions are questions I continue to reflect on through much prayer. These questions are ones which cause me great conflict and pain. It is difficult and painful to deal with the outbursts at myself and the children, criticism, her lack of self-worth (she can hear 100 compliments to 1 negative and will perseverate on the negative for days). I need to make a choice for my family’s sake and to be 100% honest the only reason I would even consider holding back now would be to “hedge my bets” in the case of things falling apart. Not exactly a noble reason for doing so.

What does the Church say here? Don’t do ABC, get divorced, possibly push a person over the edge to suicide and leave 4 or 5 kids without a mother? Do ABC, pick up the pieces, working on recovery and raise our children in the best way possible? There are so many shades of grey, the Bishops and Pope do not know the pain and turmoil in my heart at this time, only God does. The loving, forgiving, understanding God that I hope to join in Heaven regardless of the choice I make.

God knows we are not perfect, even though some on these boards are quite willing to project that they are all knowing and perfect. I find the lack of charity on the part of many here less than encouraging and I pray that you will find the gift of empathy and understanding rather than the harsh judgement you so quickly pass on those who are struggling with these issues.

Who am I or anyone else to judge other families on the number of children they choose and the lifestyle they want? If you can handle 12 kids, that’s awesome, I wish I had that conviction and strength, but I simply don’t. If you can handle 1 or 2, do the best job you can with them and don’t let others push you around or preach to you that what you are doing is wrong.

I’m not trying to be some unbelieving heretic, just trying to shed light on my situation and feelings towards this discussion. For the most part these decisions are not taken lightly and to say that God won’t forgive you is so wrong I cannot even express it in words.

God bless you and I empathize. You are right. So many on this board need to find the gift of empathy. No one knows your situation and what you are going through. God does!! Ya, ya…You will have the Catechism copied and pasted and thrown out at you. Number ?? states the following. Or…the right thing to do is abstain until your wife reaches menopause. Or…you are putting your soul at risk (which to me is condemning one to hell ) though those on this board will say…I NEVER condemned anyone to hell though I think everyday they do in a round about way. Find a priest you can open up to and go talk to him. Then make your decision after good spiritual guidance and spending lots of time in adoration. I will say 3 Hail Marys for you today on my way to work.

 

[joclucsylv]

You are mixing up procreative and fecudity. Procreative means doing the act as it was intended without anything getting in the way of your God given fertilty. That fertility is what it is on any given day. NFP fulfills that condition. ABC does not.

Being procreative doesn’t enter the picture at all on a day when you aren’t having sex.

Fecundity is related to conception. Using either ABC or NFP does not lead to fecundity. But then neither does “honey, I have a headache” on a day you are fertile or husband is off fighting a war. We are not required to have sexual relations in a manner that is fecund, only in a manner that is procreative.

I know, more terminology. Sorry.

That’s ok Corki. When I am at a place in my life where I have time I will know and study all the terminology. As a matter of fact my goal is to study Catholic theology someday.
Just food for thought though for all you learned Catholics. When a new person comes on this board asking a question, don’t assume that they are educated enough to even know where you are coming from. They will go and be discouraged. Somehow things need to be brought down to the level of the people. Just my opinion.

 

[joclucsylv]

I’m not 1ke but are you asking what will someone think or what would someone do?

If somehow the Church flipped on her position on Contraception (say an anti-pope had the Chair of Peter), it would mean that all the Church has taught about marriage would be optional. The Church can’t say that contraception is “ok” without also permitting homosexual unions, polygamy, incest (consensual), artificial insemination, cloning and abortion because those teachings are all tied together into a whole teaching on the Sacrament of Marriage.

If such a thing happened, I would be looking for the remnant.

OK…but Corki. In a thread you started did the pope at one time say that it was ok for homosexuals to use condoms. (note…I quickly read the thread so forgive me if I am wrong) Geesh…is the pope saying that homosexuality is ok??

 

[joclucsylv]

The root of the original post and the related debates of over 400 posts is the churches claim of infallibility. Everything comes down to this issue.

It boils down to, Do you believe the church incapable of err?

I have never understood why people need to make something “perfect”. Can’t it be good without being perfect? Jesus certainly didn’t have a group of “perfect” apostles. And we certainly have not had perfect descendants of those apostles.

The church is not perfect; has never been perfect; and never will be perfect.

And now here is my question. IS THE TEACHING ON CONTRACEPTION AN INFALLIBLE TEACHING?? Is it doctrine?? What is it so that I can look that up and understand more.

 

[joclucsylv]

Ok, I’ll bite. God is perfect yes. He’s the epidomy of perfection. Is the Church God too now? how is the Church perfect when it is managed by humans and humans who make mistakes? Yeah, I know, Jesus started the Church, but he left it in the care of humans, humans that would have the help of the Holy Spirit, but who were humans anyway. How is the Church perfect? The Pope himself is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra…so how is the Church perfect? When we talk about Church what do we mean? Do we mean the community that Jesus started? or some perfect thing out there?

I agree Rence. Here is my other question. If ABC is so wrong, why don’t I feel a conviction in my soul that it is?? Why doesn’t LaSainte?? After hours in prayer and at adoration and BEGGING God to show me, I still feel no conviction that it is wrong. Seems to me that if he thinks it is wrong, and I am begging for an answer and that if he loves me and wants me in heaven then I would feel a STRONG conviction in my soul?

 

[joclucsylv]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the Church claims to be perfect. She does not.

The charism of infallibility applies to the Orthodoxy, not to the Orthopraxy of the persons who claim to embrace it.

Don’t understand what you are saying. This means nothing to me. Get down to the level of the people please!

 

[ddarko]

God bless you and I empathize. You are right. So many on this board need to find the gift of empathy. No one knows your situation and what you are going through. God does!! Ya, ya…You will have the Catechism copied and pasted and thrown out at you. Number ?? states the following. Or…the right thing to do is abstain until your wife reaches menopause. Or…you are putting your soul at risk (which to me is condemning one to hell ) though those on this board will say…I NEVER condemned anyone to hell though I think everyday they do in a round about way. Find a priest you can open up to and go talk to him. Then make your decision after good spiritual guidance and spending lots of time in adoration. I will say 3 Hail Marys for you today on my way to work.

I think you have developed a false sense toward what it means to empathize. Your whole idea boils down to “If we empathize, we will see that some actions are not immoral”

Think about the kid who wants to play with fire. As a parent, I am sure you can find a way to empathize with the child by reminding yourself of a childhood experience where you wanted something and did not get it. But at the same time, you would know through REASON that playing with fire is dangerous and therefore NOT the right thing to do. So as you can see from this example, while we can empathize, it does not always mean the actions are immoral.

Doing right and wrong are not feel good things. If one has grown spiritually, then through the fruits of the spirit, it is possible to feel the joy of doing the right thing.

So the way you know right and wrong is through reasoning on philosophy, and theology i,e, REASON.

The other thing is, to call an act immoral does not mean the person who committed it goes to hell. The judgement is still reserved for God. When you condemn the acts of a child abuser as immoral and despicable, you do not mean he is going to hell. For all you know he can repent in the last minute of his life or already has. But what you do know with CERTAINTY is that his acts were immoral, disordered and despicable.

So now, lets ask the following, if no one had certainty as to what constitutes as a sin or not, how do you plan on NOT going to hell? What do you follow? Because as you can see from the above, just basing your moral compass on empathy really doesn’t get you anywhere.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

I agree Rence. Here is my other question. If ABC is so wrong, why don’t I feel a conviction in my soul that it is?? Why doesn’t LaSainte?? After hours in prayer and at adoration and BEGGING God to show me, I still feel no conviction that it is wrong. Seems to me that if he thinks it is wrong, and I am begging for an answer and that if he loves me and wants me in heaven then I would feel a STRONG conviction in my soul?

But God has answered your prayers.

The Church has made it very clear that the use of ABC are immoral. As a Roman Catholic, your whole point of the faith is to trust in Scripture, Tradition and the Church with 100% certainty. Since the Church does the interpretation of Scripture and Tradition, this basically means, TRUST in the Church.

Even your whole idea of “Praying about things you do not understand” comes from Church teaching or a Scripture passage you read. (Where you got it wrong here was that the church never said “If you do not understand it after prayer, you can abandon the teaching”)

So in short, it is possible that at this moment, God may not choose to give you 100% conviction within yourself that ABC’s are wrong. He wants you to learn a deeper lesson about your faith i.e. “What do you give your full trust to, your convictions? or to God?”. But he has surely told you WHAT is wrong and what is right. How did he do that? Through his church. You need to trust in God and his promises that he will not lead the church astray.

First the apostles did the teaching based on Christ’s teaching guided by the holy spirit. People who converted listened to their guidance. That authority and infallibility the Apostles shared has been passed down to today and will be done to the future.

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

After reading through many many posts I will share my story.

I was married fairly young by today’s standards and 9 months later was blessed with my first child. Wasn’t really considered a blessing by family members, but we considered the child a blessing. Twenty months later child 2, 18 months after that, child 3, and 27 months after that (only because she didn’t ovulate until about month 18 after child 3) number 4 will be born.

While we are both Catholic and trying to follow the teachings of the Church, she wants me to get snipped to prevent more children. 4 in 5 1/2 years is a lot, especially when you are on your own. We have discussed the situation and my hesitance over and over again, but the attitude in our community boils down to “your kids, your problem”, including in our parish. Unfortunately we are finding everywhere we turn, people are commenting on our choices negatively and telling us to deal with it. How many times can you be told this without being completely demoralized? We have no family support, most “friends” will only help in an emergency (pretty much death in the family) and are trying our best to do it on our own. Our supports are limited and this causing us a lot of difficulty. We can’t afford to “buy” support, even babysitting for an evening is out of our range. It is sad when raising children feels so much like an obligation and not the joy it should be. Any more will just push that stress level up even more. How will that be fair to any of the children?

We have gone through some serious stress and family trauma, leading to real depression on her part. I’ve held up, barely, but there is only so much we can take. Neither set of grandparents care much for the grandchildren or helping out, 3 is already too many. In fact, I was bequeathed some money from a family member through a will - one of my children’s grandparents is fighting us in court to add that relatively small sum to their fortune of literally millions rather than see us get some help. My children’s uncles don’t care or help, too nervous/busy to help out. My wife will need to go on medication for the mental illness soon after the baby is born - I’m not sure of the nursing consequences - in order to function. Right now things are incredibly rough, fortunately I have some time off work right now to help out. The person I married is not there anymore, at least not without the proper chemicals being supplied through medicine. I don’t think that our marriage would survive me rejecting the surgery followed by another pregnancy. So now the question becomes, do I not get the surgery and condemn myself to either a divorce (either because of my choice or my lack of strength in dealing with a depressed wife) and raising 5 kids in a split arrangement, or do I go ahead with the surgery, let her take the medicine and treatment she needs to be a good mother and wife and raise our kids together in a happier marriage?

These questions are questions I continue to reflect on through much prayer. These questions are ones which cause me great conflict and pain. It is difficult and painful to deal with the outbursts at myself and the children, criticism, her lack of self-worth (she can hear 100 compliments to 1 negative and will perseverate on the negative for days). I need to make a choice for my family’s sake and to be 100% honest the only reason I would even consider holding back now would be to “hedge my bets” in the case of things falling apart. Not exactly a noble reason for doing so.

What does the Church say here? Don’t do ABC, get divorced, possibly push a person over the edge to suicide and leave 4 or 5 kids without a mother? Do ABC, pick up the pieces, working on recovery and raise our children in the best way possible? There are so many shades of grey, the Bishops and Pope do not know the pain and turmoil in my heart at this time, only God does. The loving, forgiving, understanding God that I hope to join in Heaven regardless of the choice I make.

God knows we are not perfect, even though some on these boards are quite willing to project that they are all knowing and perfect. I find the lack of charity on the part of many here less than encouraging and I pray that you will find the gift of empathy and understanding rather than the harsh judgement you so quickly pass on those who are struggling with these issues.

Who am I or anyone else to judge other families on the number of children they choose and the lifestyle they want? If you can handle 12 kids, that’s awesome, I wish I had that conviction and strength, but I simply don’t. If you can handle 1 or 2, do the best job you can with them and don’t let others push you around or preach to you that what you are doing is wrong.

I’m not trying to be some unbelieving heretic, just trying to shed light on my situation and feelings towards this discussion. For the most part these decisions are not taken lightly and to say that God won’t forgive you is so wrong I cannot even express it in words.

I am sorry that you and your wife are going through a difficult time. It sounds like you’re doing the best job you can with your wife and kids.

Let me just say this: departing from the message of Jesus to follow him and his teachings will never lead you to happiness.

Look at the culture today, which is a contracepting society. Do you think it’s made marriages better or worse?

Now, look at the Catholic culture which supports NFP. Do you think their marriages are better or worse than the general society.

I think that speaks volumes.

If you want a good marriage, and want to be happy, stay close to the Church and her teachings.

 

[silentstar]

After reading through many many posts I will share my story.

I was married fairly young by today’s standards and 9 months later was blessed with my first child. Wasn’t really considered a blessing by family members, but we considered the child a blessing. Twenty months later child 2, 18 months after that, child 3, and 27 months after that (only because she didn’t ovulate until about month 18 after child 3) number 4 will be born.

While we are both Catholic and trying to follow the teachings of the Church, she wants me to get snipped to prevent more children. 4 in 5 1/2 years is a lot, especially when you are on your own. We have discussed the situation and my hesitance over and over again, but the attitude in our community boils down to “your kids, your problem”, including in our parish.

Hello,

I am sorry for your suffering and the financial struggles that are making life with kids difficult right now. In addition your wife’s mental state sounds distressing. People on CAF will cite Church doctrine. However what they will often not do is insist you make decisions together with your wife’s doctors. In my opinion that is essential. Doctors should respect your religious beliefs. I am not saying disregard Catholic doctrine which is very important to many people. Doctors are there to take care of you. If you want that done consistently with Catholic doctrine, or you have other questions, they should be helping you, you shouldn’t have to do all this alone.

 

[Calliso]

After reading through many many posts I will share my story.

I was married fairly young by today’s standards and 9 months later was blessed with my first child. Wasn’t really considered a blessing by family members, but we considered the child a blessing. Twenty months later child 2, 18 months after that, child 3, and 27 months after that (only because she didn’t ovulate until about month 18 after child 3) number 4 will be born.

While we are both Catholic and trying to follow the teachings of the Church, she wants me to get snipped to prevent more children. 4 in 5 1/2 years is a lot, especially when you are on your own. We have discussed the situation and my hesitance over and over again, but the attitude in our community boils down to “your kids, your problem”, including in our parish. Unfortunately we are finding everywhere we turn, people are commenting on our choices negatively and telling us to deal with it. How many times can you be told this without being completely demoralized? We have no family support, most “friends” will only help in an emergency (pretty much death in the family) and are trying our best to do it on our own. Our supports are limited and this causing us a lot of difficulty. We can’t afford to “buy” support, even babysitting for an evening is out of our range. It is sad when raising children feels so much like an obligation and not the joy it should be. Any more will just push that stress level up even more. How will that be fair to any of the children?

We have gone through some serious stress and family trauma, leading to real depression on her part. I’ve held up, barely, but there is only so much we can take. Neither set of grandparents care much for the grandchildren or helping out, 3 is already too many. In fact, I was bequeathed some money from a family member through a will - one of my children’s grandparents is fighting us in court to add that relatively small sum to their fortune of literally millions rather than see us get some help. My children’s uncles don’t care or help, too nervous/busy to help out. My wife will need to go on medication for the mental illness soon after the baby is born - I’m not sure of the nursing consequences - in order to function. Right now things are incredibly rough, fortunately I have some time off work right now to help out. The person I married is not there anymore, at least not without the proper chemicals being supplied through medicine. I don’t think that our marriage would survive me rejecting the surgery followed by another pregnancy. So now the question becomes, do I not get the surgery and condemn myself to either a divorce (either because of my choice or my lack of strength in dealing with a depressed wife) and raising 5 kids in a split arrangement, or do I go ahead with the surgery, let her take the medicine and treatment she needs to be a good mother and wife and raise our kids together in a happier marriage?

These questions are questions I continue to reflect on through much prayer. These questions are ones which cause me great conflict and pain. It is difficult and painful to deal with the outbursts at myself and the children, criticism, her lack of self-worth (she can hear 100 compliments to 1 negative and will perseverate on the negative for days). I need to make a choice for my family’s sake and to be 100% honest the only reason I would even consider holding back now would be to “hedge my bets” in the case of things falling apart. Not exactly a noble reason for doing so.

What does the Church say here? Don’t do ABC, get divorced, possibly push a person over the edge to suicide and leave 4 or 5 kids without a mother? Do ABC, pick up the pieces, working on recovery and raise our children in the best way possible? There are so many shades of grey, the Bishops and Pope do not know the pain and turmoil in my heart at this time, only God does. The loving, forgiving, understanding God that I hope to join in Heaven regardless of the choice I make.

God knows we are not perfect, even though some on these boards are quite willing to project that they are all knowing and perfect. I find the lack of charity on the part of many here less than encouraging and I pray that you will find the gift of empathy and understanding rather than the harsh judgement you so quickly pass on those who are struggling with these issues.

Who am I or anyone else to judge other families on the number of children they choose and the lifestyle they want? If you can handle 12 kids, that’s awesome, I wish I had that conviction and strength, but I simply don’t. If you can handle 1 or 2, do the best job you can with them and don’t let others push you around or preach to you that what you are doing is wrong.

I’m not trying to be some unbelieving heretic, just trying to shed light on my situation and feelings towards this discussion. For the most part these decisions are not taken lightly and to say that God won’t forgive you is so wrong I cannot even express it in words.

Wow I will be praying for you. But your post shows that things aren;t always black and white. You situation is a clear example of the grey areas that can happen and that situations where one wants or is tempted to use ABC aren;t all about wanting more sex with their spouse and wanting no consequences. I mean in this case it isn;t about more carefree sex it is about holding your marriage together and even more important potentially saving your wives life. Really I am just a person so feel free to ignore this advice but I think you should do what is best for your family. If God is really a merciful God surely he will see your heart and mind and understand your reasons.