Sterilization followed by confession?

[Calliso]

I am sorry that you and your wife are going through a difficult time. It sounds like you’re doing the best job you can with your wife and kids.

Let me just say this: departing from the message of Jesus to follow him and his teachings will never lead you to happiness.

Look at the culture today, which is a contracepting society. Do you think it’s made marriages better or worse?

Now, look at the Catholic culture which supports NFP. Do you think their marriages are better or worse than the general society.

I think that speaks volumes.

If you want a good marriage, and want to be happy, stay close to the Church and her teachings.

The thing is though things arent always that black and white. Some people have worse marriages following Church teaching. I can think of off the top of my head at least one person on these boards that admits when they were not following Church teachings on sex though I donlt think they were using ABC 100% their marriage wasn;t only better they also felt closer to God and their faith. And now that they are following the teaching 100% it has only been bad for their marriage. And really in the case of the person you are replying too I can;t see how continuing to go down the path he is currently on will make things better or help at all for that matter.

 

[maryjk]

So now the question becomes, do I not get the surgery and condemn myself to either a divorce (either because of my choice or my lack of strength in dealing with a depressed wife) and raising 5 kids in a split arrangement, or do I go ahead with the surgery, let her take the medicine and treatment she needs to be a good mother and wife and raise our kids together in a happier marriage?

Why does it have to be either or? Why can’t it be something totally different?

How about your wife takes the medication she needs to help her mental state? After her mental state improves, you go back to your NFP teacher and take another class? Until that time abstain. I am guessing that you missed something in the first set of class if every time she ovulates, she gets pregnant.

 

[ddarko]

The thing is though things arent always that black and white. Some people have worse marriages following Church teaching. I can think of off the top of my head at least one person on these boards that admits when they were not following Church teachings on sex though I donlt think they were using ABC 100% their marriage wasn;t only better they also felt closer to God and their faith. And now that they are following the teaching 100% it has only been bad for their marriage. And really in the case of the person you are replying too I can;t see how continuing to go down the path he is currently on will make things better or help at all for that matter.

I think you are confusing two things here.

Doing the right thing does not mean good results all the time in this life. Why? Because for one reason, the world is in a fallen state. If in Nazi Germany, you decided to save the life of a Jewish person (right thing to do), then you could get executed too or at least, your life will be made difficult. Does that mean “Saving innocent human life” is not the right thing to do always? Obviously, not right?

So same here, these cases where not using ABC’s are “hurting” marriages is a result of the imperfection of those involved in the marriage. So the right thing to do still is to DO THE MORAL THING while praying to God for the grace for things to get better and for them to find JOY in doing what is GOOD.

God Bless

 

[LaSainte]

Little One, you can try to throw this back at me all you want, but he bottom line isthat Ike and you started he debate when you started talking about infallibility and the inerrancy of the Church. All I asked was a question about absolution in the confessional. I did not ask about he teachings of the Church or how he Church cannot be wrong about ABC. I know the position on this all to well and hat had ZERO to do with my original question.

You say that I could have just not responded at all? That’s like punching someone in he face and then saying they started the fight because they hit back. Please.

 

[Calliso]

I think you are confusing two things here.

Doing the right thing does not mean good results all the time in this life. Why? Because for one reason, the world is in a fallen state. If in Nazi Germany, you decided to save the life of a Jewish person (right thing to do), then you could get executed too or at least, your life will be made difficult. Does that mean “Saving innocent human life” is not the right thing to do always? Obviously, not right?

So same here, these cases where not using ABC’s are “hurting” marriages is a result of the imperfection of those involved in the marriage. So the right thing to do still is to DO THE MORAL THING while praying to God for the grace for things to get better and for them to find JOY in doing what is GOOD.

God Bless

True I agree that doing the right thing doesn;t always lead to good results. I was just pointing simply that not all have had good results when following Church teachings on sex. So it is really not as simple as saying you will have a good marriage if you do this or that.

 

[ddarko]

After reading through many many posts I will share my story.

I was married fairly young by today’s standards and 9 months later was blessed with my first child. Wasn’t really considered a blessing by family members, but we considered the child a blessing. Twenty months later child 2, 18 months after that, child 3, and 27 months after that (only because she didn’t ovulate until about month 18 after child 3) number 4 will be born.

While we are both Catholic and trying to follow the teachings of the Church, she wants me to get snipped to prevent more children. 4 in 5 1/2 years is a lot, especially when you are on your own. We have discussed the situation and my hesitance over and over again, but the attitude in our community boils down to “your kids, your problem”, including in our parish. Unfo…

I’m not trying to be some unbelieving heretic, just trying to shed light on my situation and feelings towards this discussion. For the most part these decisions are not taken lightly and to say that God won’t forgive you is so wrong I cannot even express it in words.

First, I am deeply sorry about the situation you are going through. I will keep you in my prayers.

Secondly, God forgives everything if you HONESTLY REPENT, DO PENANCE, and AMEND YOUR LIFE.

Continuing to use ABC’s because you can go to confession the next day is not true repentance or what is meant by ‘amending your life’ though.

Now to the question,

NO, getting snipped is no the only way to not have children. That is in fact disordered. Your spouse is outright rejecting your fertility. If you are unable to support more children at this time, you can abstain from sex or practice NFP.

Practicing sex with ABC’s is not love. Do you think it better to live your marriage as a lie?

Now it appears that if you don’t get snipped, your spouse will divorce you. So let us consider whether it is possible to use ABC’s as a lesser evil.

Answer: NO. Why? Because getting snipped is an intrinsically immoral act. You are rejecting a gift given by God. One cannot do intrinsically immoral acts towards a good result. The end does not justify the means.

So in any case, the choice is not about empathy and leniency. The choice is whether you want to continue to live a lie in marriage by using ABC’s or whether you want to truly love each other (abstain, NFP)? Love is about doing what IS good, not what FEELS good

God Bless

 

[Little_One0307]

Little One, you can try to throw this back at me all you want, but he bottom line isthat Ike and you started he debate when you started talking about infallibility and the inerrancy of the Church. All I asked was a question about absolution in the confessional. I did not ask about he teachings of the Church or how he Church cannot be wrong about ABC. I know the position on this all to well and hat had ZERO to do with my original question.

You say that I could have just not responded at all? That’s like punching someone in he face and then saying they started the fight because they hit back. Please.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You also stated in the OP that you believed after years of honestly praying or something like that, that the Church teachings may not be correct. If you did not want anyone coming down on you, you should have posted your OP a bit better.

God bless.

 

[ddarko]

True I agree that doing the right thing doesn;t always lead to good results. I was just pointing simply that not all have had good results when following Church teachings on sex. So it is really not as simple as saying you will have a good marriage if you do this or that.

But you will have a “GOOD” marriage if you do not practice ABC.

If you practice ABC’s you do not have a GOOD marriage anyway because you are living a lie. There is no love in such a marriage… there is only utilization of each other for pleasure.

But in a marriage where spouses do not practice ABC’s there is LOVE. So it is a GOOD marriage in that sense.

God Bless

 

[Calliso]

Why does it have to be either or? Why can’t it be something totally different?

How about your wife takes the medication she needs to help her mental state? After her mental state improves, you go back to your NFP teacher and take another class? Until that time abstain. I am guessing that you missed something in the first set of class if every time she ovulates, she gets pregnant.

Yeah true it is quite possible that they simply were not using NFP correctly. Of course they could be one of the unlucky ones that NFP just isn;t reliable for. But yes this does seem like a valid third option at this point.

 

[Calliso]

But you will have a “GOOD” marriage if you do not practice ABC.

If you practice ABC’s you do not have a GOOD marriage anyway because you are living a lie. **There is no love in such a marriage… there is only utilization of each other for pleasure. **

But in a marriage where spouses do not practice ABC’s there is LOVE. So it is a GOOD marriage in that sense.

God Bless

See I will have to disagree here. There are plenty of marriages that use ABC including at one point my own in which the above is far from being true. Once again it is not a black and white issue where all those that use ABC just use their spouse for pleasure. I mean when I was on ABC I certainly felt more in love and closer to my husband then I do now with longterm abstainance. I mean sure some people use ABC so they can have sex whenever and this can lead to one simply using ones spouse but it doesn;t always happen like that. One might simply want to have sex with ones spouse simply to bond with them and feel closer.

 

[ddarko]

See I will have to disagree here. There are plenty of marriages that use ABC including at one point my own in which the above is far from being true. Once again it is not a black and white issue where all those that use ABC just use their spouse for pleasure. I mean when I was on ABC I certainly felt more in love and closer to my husband then I do now with longterm abstainance. I mean sure some people use ABC so they can have sex whenever and this can lead to one simply using ones spouse but it doesn;t always happen like that. One might simply want to have sex with ones spouse simply to bond with them and feel closer.

Yes but what you are saying here does not make sense.

What is your definition of “GOOD”? Your definition of GOOD seems to be whatever gives pleasure/happy feelings in marriage. But that is not a measure of good.

One can’t bond with one’s spouse if they are rejecting part of them. That is why its a lie. When you reject part of a person and still try to “Bond”, the word is not love. You are also not bonding with your spouse. You are rejecting their fertility.

How would you feel about a spouse who wants to have sex for “bonding” with a cloth over the other spouse’s face because he/she doesn’t want to see it? Do you call that love?

Love in sex is a COMPLETE mutual giving and acceptance of each other.

What I would advice is first you define the terms GOOD, LOVE etc. Then revisit this issue. Right now you have a vague definition of what is GOOD, what is LOVE. I think that is the difficulty. Once you nail those terms down, it will be obvious.

God Bless

 

[Calliso]

Yes but what you are saying here does not make sense.

What is your definition of “GOOD”? Your definition of GOOD seems to be whatever gives pleasure/happy feelings in marriage. But that is not a measure of good.

One can’t bond with one’s spouse if they are rejecting part of them. That is why its a lie. When you reject part of a person and still try to “Bond”, the word is not love. You are also not bonding with your spouse. You are rejecting their fertility.

How would you feel about a spouse who wants to have sex for “bonding” with a cloth over the other spouse’s face because he/she doesn’t want to see it? Do you call that love?

Love in sex is a COMPLETE mutual giving and acceptance of each other.

What I would advice is first you define the terms GOOD, LOVE etc. Then revisit this issue. Right now you have a vague definition of what is GOOD, what is LOVE. I think that is the difficulty. Once you nail those terms down, it will be obvious.

God Bless

I donlt really see how putting a cloth over a spouses face is the same as both agreeing that you will use a condom or get sterilized or use a pill to prevent pregnancy. And what if you both donlt want each others fertility? I mean how is that rejecting your spouses fertility then? I mean I could understand in a situation where one is using ABC agaisnt the others will but when it is mutually agreed upon? Not to mention you say it is not bonding but my own personal experience say that is false I know for a fact that I bonded with my husband. There is no other word for what I felt. I should also note that sex was often not good for me physically so it definately wasn;t about physical pleasure.

 

[Bookcat]

True I agree that doing the right thing doesn;t always lead to good results. I was just pointing simply that not all have had good results when following Church teachings on sex. So it is really not as simple as saying you will have a good marriage if you do this or that.

Let think this through. I understand your not Catholic so lets use something else that may be more clear.

Leo and Debra are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a girl on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy…and he is not bothered by his conscience cause he knows this is bringing them peace. Sam is not even bothered when he goes to Church each week with his happy family…thinking God will understand my situation…I had to save my family…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not justify the means.

Adultery and contraception and other gravely evil proposals are *always and everywhere evil *…they are contrary to God…and even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness or even says their conscience is ok with it…does not make it good or ok. It is gravely against the will of God. Many have deadened in fact their conscience…for they get used to doing such…many do not see the truth due to their emotions or even their will …they just think “this will help my marriage”.

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal “apparent” happiness… over God and true happiness.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…but I would not count on such…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…to follow the way of God.

Many rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” etc…

Jesus is very clear: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[Calliso]

Let think this through. I understand your not Catholic so lets use something else that may be more clear.

Leo and Debra are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a girl on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy…and he is not bothered by his conscience cause he knows this is bringing them peace. Sam is not even bothered when he goes to Church each week with his happy family…thinking God will understand my situation…I had to save my family…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not justify the means.

Adultery and contraception and other gravely evil proposals are *always and everywhere evil *…they are contrary to God…and even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness or even says their conscience is ok with it…does not make it good or ok. It is gravely against the will of God. Many have deadened in fact their conscience…for they get used to doing such…many do not see the truth due to their emotions or even their will …they just think “this will help my marriage”.

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal “apparent” happiness… over God and true happiness.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…but I would not count on such…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…to follow the way of God.

Many rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” etc…

Jesus is very clear: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

Ok I understand kinda what you are saying here I just donlt get the comparison between someone sleeping with someone on the side so to speak and someone after much care and thought choosing to get sterilized or use some other form of ABC to save their marriage and possibly a life. I mean one example is purely selfish and kinda delusional. I mean the second example might think they have a great marriage but then why if that is the case would he feel the need to cheat and continue to cheat in the first place!? I donlt see how the two compare I just donlt.

 

[sw85]

I donlt really see how putting a cloth over a spouses face is the same as both agreeing that you will use a condom or get sterilized or use a pill to prevent pregnancy. And what if you both donlt want each others fertility? I mean how is that rejecting your spouses fertility then? I mean I could understand in a situation where one is using ABC agaisnt the others will but when it is mutually agreed upon? Not to mention you say it is not bonding but my own personal experience say that is false I know for a fact that I bonded with my husband. There is no other word for what I felt. I should also note that sex was often not good for me physically so it definately wasn;t about physical pleasure.

If you don’t want each other’s fertility, why did you marry?

 

[Bookcat]

Ok I understand kinda what you are saying here I just donlt get the comparison between someone sleeping with someone on the side so to speak and someone after much care and thought choosing to get sterilized or use some other form of ABC to save their marriage and possibly a life. I mean one example is purely selfish and kinda delusional. I mean the second example might think they have a great marriage but then why if that is the case would he feel the need to cheat and continue to cheat in the first place!? I donlt see how the two compare I just donlt.

Basically: grave evil is just that grave evil.

All Ten of the 10 commandments …can be matter for mortal sin…can be grave evil. In setting side by side all the various gravely evil acts…they may not seem to compare easily…but before God the are all gravely evil (though some worse than others).

(Contraception too is objectively selfish…I should note)

Grave evil is grave evil.

One can never choose it. For any reason.

(not to say that one can choose any evil for that matter…)

 

[Calliso]

If you don’t want each other’s fertility, why did you marry?

Because you love each other. Because you want to have something more meaningful then being live in boyfriend or girlfriend or if you believe that is sinful you donlt wish to sin. For me and my husband it can down to simply being in love,

 

[Calliso]

Basically: grave evil is just that grave evil.

All Ten of the 10 commandments …can be matter for mortal sin…can be grave evil. In setting side by side all the various gravely evil acts…they may not seem to compare easily…but before God the are all gravely evil (though some worse than others).

(Contraception too is objectively selfish…I should note)

Grave evil is grave evil.

One can never choose it. For any reason.

(not to say that one can choose any evil for that matter…)

Ok I understand more now I still disagree that ABC is wrong all the time but I think in general I understand what you are getting at now. Now of course the argument comes down to is ABC sinful or not.

 

[Bookcat]

Because you love each other. Because you want to have something more meaningful then being live in boyfriend or girlfriend or if you believe that is sinful you donlt wish to sin. For me and my husband it can down to simply being in love,

Marriage is more than just love.

Great as that is.

 

[Calliso]

Marriage is more than just love.

Great as that is.

I know that there is hardwork and hardship as well.