B
Bookcat
Guest
- Great
- It is…
By the way I do not use the term ABC…but contraception. It is more precise. The artificalness is not the problem…such is a misunderstanding that some have.
- Status
By the way I do not use the term ABC…but contraception. It is more precise. The artificalness is not the problem…such is a misunderstanding that some have.
B
Bookcat
Guest
More than that…
Here since your not a Catholic you may not yet have read these rich pages from the Catechism:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm
C
Calliso
Guest
Ok that makes more sense I have always seen the word ABC used but if artificialness isn;t the problem then yes it doesn;t make sense to use that term.now next question
- Great
- It is…
By the way I do not use the term ABC…but contraception. It is more precise. The artificalness is not the problem…such is a misunderstand that some have.
C
Calliso
Guest
Ok I haven;t read every word of that yet will later getting a little sleepy now and need to do some housecleaning But I read the summary and I get what you are saying. My point at least for my husband and I still stands. I mean I married him because I love him. But I understand that marriage is far more then just love. Of course I should probably also note that the rejection of fertility or our decision to remain childfree didn;t come until after we married. Though would you say that if one married and had the intention before marriage to avoid children that there marriage would not be a valid marriage then in the eyes of the Church?
L
LaSainte
Guest
I stated that to give context to the story, so that people wouldn’t think that I simply didn’t understand the teaching or had not reflected on it sufficiently to make a fully informed choice, which males a difference regarding the personal culpability of certain sins. The statement was relevant information to the question at hand. Yours was not.
D
ddarko
Guest
They are both acts which reject part of the other spouse. In contraception during the sex act it is the fertility that is rejected. In the case of covering the face because they don’t like how it looks at the time, it is the face that is rejected.
??? In the case of both agreeing, they are just both agreeing to lie to each other.
If both spouses are ok with one of them covering the others face for sex, does that make it right? They are both just using each other for pleasure.
But this is not good “Bonding”. Me slapping a person on the street creates a BOND between me and the person I slapped. Is it a good bond? NO.
Me having sex with a random woman creates a bond between me and her. Is that a good BOND? NO.
The problem here is that you haven’t nailed down what is a GOOD bond. For you the GOOD BOND means a happy feeling or attraction to the other. But that is not correct.
Or perhaps you are trying to say ANY BOND is a GOOD BOND? But that is obviously false right? If not, we can discuss this specific issue more.
We can feel good at times when we live a lie. I am not arguing that. Some couples might say they feel love in a abusive relationship or in abusive sex. They are simply believing in a lie.
That is why you and I need to step out of our feelings and how we feel about things. We need to weight things in terms of MORAL or IMMORAL. To say that something doesn’t feel IMMORAL because I feel good when doing it doesn’t really say anything. Do you agree?
God Bless
S
sw85
Guest
But romantic love is also ordered toward procreation. That is the purpose it serves. It is not an end in itself.
C
crazzeto
Guest
And thus it becomes nearly impossible to argue against homosexual marriage… If you really want to beleive that this is the purpose of marriage. In fact I would submit that if this understanding is correct, then Christianity is wrong to oppose homosexual marriage.
So then, there has to be another purpose doesn’t there.
C
Calliso
Guest
True but I still think that one can truly be in love with a person and not want children with them. I was just trying to share why I and maybe others would get married even if they had no intention of having kids. I do understand though in the Church I would probably have an invalid marriage.
S
samiam1611
Guest
You say you’re non-denominational, so I am curious why you don’t use ABC or sterilization if/since NFP/abstinence is so hard. Is your husband Catholic, or are you Catholic just haven’t changed your info, or what?
C
Calliso
Guest
Ok I donlt get why they would both just be agreeing to lie to each other. As for covering ones spouses face during sex…well I guess it depends on the reasons for doing it. But yeah in general it would be wrong.They are both acts which reject part of the other spouse. In contraception during the sex act it is the fertility that is rejected. In the case of covering the face because they don’t like how it looks at the time, it is the face that is rejected.
??? In the case of both agreeing, they are just both agreeing to lie to each other.
If both spouses are ok with one of them covering the others face for sex, does that make it right? They are both just using each other for pleasure.
But this is not good “Bonding”. Me slapping a person on the street creates a BOND between me and the person I slapped. Is it a good bond? NO.
Me having sex with a random woman creates a bond between me and her. Is that a good BOND? NO.
The problem here is that you haven’t nailed down what is a GOOD bond. For you the GOOD BOND means a happy feeling or attraction to the other. But that is not correct.
Or perhaps you are trying to say ANY BOND is a GOOD BOND? But that is obviously false right? If not, we can discuss this specific issue more.
We can feel good at times when we live a lie. I am not arguing that. Some couples might say they feel love in a abusive relationship or in abusive sex. They are simply believing in a lie.
That is why you and I need to step out of our feelings and how we feel about things. We need to weight things in terms of MORAL or IMMORAL. To say that something doesn’t feel IMMORAL because I feel good when doing it doesn’t really say anything. Do you agree?
God Bless
I donlt think any bond is a good bond. I donlt see what was bad about the bond me and my husband used to share though. We were not using each other for sex. I can understand how if that were the case if my husband were using me for sex or I was using him no matter how good it felt emotionally or physically it still would not be Good. But we were not using each other. So I donlt understand how that bond could have been bad.
I see what your saying about abusive relationships but my relationship wasn;t anything like that neither are many that use contraception.
I do agree that something feeling good doesn;t mean it is moral.
C
Calliso
Guest
The pill didn;t work for me it prevented pregnancy but unfortunately the sideeffects just were not worth it for me. Condoms are ok for me but pretty much suck for my husband. My husband refuses to get sterilized and I admit I terrified of going to the doctor and getting any sort of implant or surgery myself bad experiences . I have considered NFP and while attractive it doesn;t seem like a good option for one looking to prevent pregnancy for the next 20 years or so. No neither of us are Catholic.
B
Bookcat
Guest
By the way…basically ALL Christians held contraception to be evil up until around as I recall 1930…when some Protestant Christians started to make exceptions…
Something for you to consider…
C
crazzeto
Guest
More specifically the Anglican Lambeth confrence decided it was OK… And the rest of protestintism gradually followed suite.
D
ddarko
Guest
Ok so the bolded part above is the most important. “Just because it feels good, it is not right”.
You and your husband had a bond. So does the man and woman who engage in premarital or extra marital sex. Therefore now we have to see if a relationship/bond made with contraception is GOOD or BAD.
So now let us analyze if your bond or those of people who use contraception is morally valid or not.
SEX in order to be an expression of LOVE, needs to be the complete gift of each other and acceptance of each other during the act.
In the case of covering the other spouses face or using contraception, it is not complete giving. Even if the two agree to it, the rejection is still there.
Now I think you saw why it was important in the face case. If your husband decided to put a cloth over your face because he didn’t like the look of it that day, then you certainly see it as a rejection, right?
Now the fertility that is in you, and in your spouse is also something important. It is just like the face. The only difference is that majority of the population don’t VALUE it or consider it as a part of who they are. This is why you would FEEL hurt in the face case but not in the fertility case. But in an ideal world, you should care about your fertility just as much as your husband cares about his. It is partly what defines who he is and partly what defines who you are. So the problem here is actually that you do not FEEL that it is much of a problem to reject infertility i.e. its not that big of a deal.
But as you have agreed above, whether you are doing the right thing is not measured through how you FEEL . It is about whether you are doing the GOOD thing. But as seen from above, though you might not FEEL it, and though your husband might not FEEL it, you two are doing something IMMORAL towards each other. You are rejecting each others fertility.
God wants you to love completely and give yourself completely. Not partly.
God Bless
S
samiam1611
Guest
Maybe you could add withdrawl to using NFP, for some extra reassurance. If you use it really strictly and combine it with withdrawl, that seems like a pretty good natural way to prevent pregnancy. Used perfectly, withdrawl has a failure rate of only 4%. Combine that with NFP and I think you could be reasonably assured of not getting pregnant…assuming you feel 96% confident in NFP!
B
Bookcat
Guest
They as I recall…decided certain use was ok…and then more and more…it widened…
C
Calliso
Guest
Ok I understand better what you are saying now. Yeah I probably should care about my fertility more. Well I do care about my fertility but probably not in the right sense. I wish I was infertile that would make my life and my marriage so much better. Not that I have a bad marriage my husband loves me and I love him… but to be honest there is definately something lacking I feel. Something we had before. Passion perhaps is the right word. And really I wish I wanted kids or even that my husband wanted kids. If getting pregnant wouldn;t be a total disaster I might find it possible to give all of myself to my spouse. But right now I just can;t do that. So I guess I give none of myself which is probably worse actually…sigh.Ok so the bolded part above is the most important. “Just because it feels good, it is not right”.
You and your husband had a bond. So does the man and woman who engage in premarital or extra marital sex. Therefore now we have to see if a relationship/bond made with contraception is GOOD or BAD.
So now let us analyze if your bond or those of people who use contraception is morally valid or not.
SEX in order to be an expression of LOVE, needs to be the complete gift of each other and acceptance of each other during the act.
In the case of covering the other spouses face or using contraception, it is not complete giving. Even if the two agree to it, the rejection is still there.
Now I think you saw why it was important in the face case. If your husband decided to put a cloth over your face because he didn’t like the look of it that day, then you certainly see it as a rejection, right?
Now the fertility that is in you, and in your spouse is also something important. It is just like the face. The only difference is that majority of the population don’t VALUE it or consider it as a part of who they are. This is why you would FEEL hurt in the face case but not in the fertility case. But in an ideal world, you should care about your fertility just as much as your husband cares about his. It is partly what defines who he is and partly what defines who you are. So the problem here is actually that you do not FEEL that it is much of a problem to reject infertility i.e. its not that big of a deal.
But as you have agreed above, whether you are doing the right thing is not measured through how you FEEL . It is about whether you are doing the GOOD thing. But as seen from above, though you might not FEEL it, and though your husband might not FEEL it, you two are doing something IMMORAL towards each other. You are rejecting each others fertility.
God wants you to love completely and give yourself completely. Not partly.
God Bless
C
Calliso
Guest
Maybe but I admit I donlt trust NFP 96% lol! I mean I know it works well for many people and if I could be sure before hand sure I would talk to my husband and see if he would go for it. Personally I doubt he would and I am sure he would have a big I told you so ready if it failed…
J
joclucsylv
Guest
I’ll answer that one. To have 2 beautiful girls to raise the best we can. To grow old together. To be with my best friend until death. To become grandparents someday. It’s not all about fertility lol!! If that was the case why do elderly beyond the age of menopause marry? Why do infertile people marry??
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