Sterilization followed by confession?

[ddarko]

I just have a little anecdote that some of you might find interesting.

I was thinking about this whole issue the other night and I thought a out the parable of the sower. Anyway, it occurred to me that the imagery used is very suggestive of the topic at hand-sowing seed into ground that for one reason or another may or may not be fertile. I started to wonder if this parable could in any way be applied to what I impersonally dealing with here and my struggles with this teaching.

Well, lo and behold, we go to mass tonight and the parable of the sower is the gospel, which I thought was quite a coincidence. We also brought our almost 2 year old son to sit in the pews for the first time, thinking it would be a disaster. He was an angel. He just sat there quietly and he even sang the “hosanna”, which was adorable

Anyway, it occurred to me that I have 2 issues with this teaching. The first is like the first example Jesus gave, where maybe I am not understanding the teaching in the sense that I am not looking at it correctly, through the light and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, and so perhaps as in the parable, Satan is snatching this teaching from me before it can take root. The second issue I have with this teaching is anxiety and concern about being overwhelmed either financially or emotionally, like the seeds that were sown among the thorns, but were choked out by the things of the world.

Anyway, I have decided that right now, I do not HAVE to predict the future or know exactly what I will do. I am pregnant now and intend (and have intended) to use NFP to avoid pregnancy after that. If I get pregnant again, I will obviously have to reassess my feelings, but thankfully, I don’t have to deal with that now. God doesn’t dump everything on us all at once, and I am confident that with prayer and trying to open my heart to God’s will as best I can, He will help me to make the right decision when and IF the time comes. **For now, I am going to try to put away my anxieties, follow Church teaching, and hope and pray that NFP works for me and that I won’t be tested on this somewhere down the line. . If I am, God will help me through. **

I hope that this gives hope to you Little One if you are reading this and that you can try to put away some of your anxiety as well. I can see that you love God very much and He would not let that go unrewarded, especially with as much effort as you are putting into conforming your thoughts to His will. I prayed for you tonight!

God bless!

Well said, and well reasoned. Your best post, and one of the best I must say

Lay all your troubles and anxiety with God. The more you do, the more peace you will find. God will help you through if you bend to his will.

May God bless your family and new child that is on the way! All the best!!!

God Bless

 

[Little_One0307]

Well, lo and behold, we go to mass tonight and the parable of the sower is the gospel, which I thought was quite a coincidence. We also brought our almost 2 year old son to sit in the pews for the first time, thinking it would be a disaster. He was an angel. He just sat there quietly and he even sang the “hosanna”, which was adorable

I would have loved to see that. How cute.

Anyway, it occurred to me that I have 2 issues with this teaching. The first is like the first example Jesus gave, where maybe I am not understanding the teaching in the sense that I am not looking at it correctly, through the light and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, and so perhaps as in the parable, Satan is snatching this teaching from me before it can take root. The second issue I have with this teaching is anxiety and concern about being overwhelmed either financially or emotionally, like the seeds that were sown among the thorns, but were choked out by the things of the world.

Perhaps I should apply this wisdom to my own struggle with Vatican II. In fact, what you wrote is a God send and has helped me in my own struggle.

Anyway, I have decided that right now, I do not HAVE to predict the future or know exactly what I will do. I am pregnant now and intend (and have intended) to use NFP to avoid pregnancy after that. If I get pregnant again, I will obviously have to reassess my feelings, but thankfully, I don’t have to deal with that now. God doesn’t dump everything on us all at once, and I am confident that with prayer and trying to open my heart to God’s will as best I can, He will help me to make the right decision when and IF the time comes. For now, I am going to try to put away my anxieties, follow Church teaching, and hope and pray that NFP works for me and that I won’t be tested on this somewhere down the line. . If I am, God will help me through.

This is music to my ears. And more importantly it is music to God’s ears. IT comes down to that, being a God pleaser. I am sure that Our Lady is smiling and is very happy about this. I have prayed to her asking for her intercession with your struggle.

I hope that this gives hope to you Little One if you are reading this and that you can try to put away some of your anxiety as well. I can see that you love God very much and He would not let that go unrewarded, especially with as much effort as you are putting into conforming your thoughts to His will. I prayed for you tonight!

This does give me hope. Tomorrow I start another Vatican II document. I think I am going to start with Lumen Gentium. I am excited and hopeful and yet a bit anxious too. I can see the working of the Holy Spirit already in work in you. Perhaps he is moving my hardened heart and softening it in regards to the Council. But I am going to give my anxiety with the grace of God to God. Thank you so much for you prayer. Next time Mass is said, I will offer it as a Mass of Thanksgiving and prayer for you and your intentions. If you ever need a prayer request or want to chat I am only a PM away. So have you thought of a name for your child?

This is by far the one of two very encouraging and uplifting posts that I have seen all week. The other was a topic that Quis Ut Deus 3 started today entitled God’s Will: active and permissive.

LaSainte you by posting and watching your journey has helped me in so many ways that I cannot express. To those who have posted in this thread you guys have helped me too.

God bless you all.

 

[LaSainte]

Thank you Mary Gail and Ddarko I am starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel. Little One, thank you SO MUCH for your thoughts and prayers. I can already feel them working (don’t you just love Our Lady?). I know that God will help you with your struggles as well. Your perseverance is an absolute inspiration. God would never let someone so full of love for him and yet so troubled struggle in vain. Have hope! Inreally do appreciate your kindness. You have really helped my faith here.

For those who asked, My baby is due in exactly 2 months, although I already feel 9 months pregnant, haha. His name is Nathaniel. I like Nathaniel because he us believed to be the same person as the apostle Bartholomew, and when his friend Philip told him that he had found the Messiah and it was Jesus of Nazareth, he responded sarcastically, “Has anything good ever come out of Nazareth?”, which I think is hilarious. Especially since he was immediately converted when he met Jesus 5 minutes later

Thank you all so much for the prayers and well-wishes.

 

[PRmerger]

he responded sarcastically, “Has anything good ever come out of Nazareth?”, which I think is hilarious. Especially since he was immediately converted when he met Jesus 5 minutes later

I find that hilarious, too.

 

[Little_One0307]

Thank you Mary Gail and Ddarko I am starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel. Little One, thank you SO MUCH for your thoughts and prayers. I can already feel them working (don’t you just love Our Lady?). I know that God will help you with your struggles as well. Your perseverance is an absolute inspiration. God would never let someone so full of love for him and yet so troubled struggle in vain. Have hope! Inreally do appreciate your kindness. You have really helped my faith here.

For those who asked, My baby is due in exactly 2 months, although I already feel 9 months pregnant, haha. His name is Nathaniel. I like Nathaniel because he us believed to be the same person as the apostle Bartholomew, and when his friend Philip told him that he had found the Messiah and it was Jesus of Nazareth, he responded sarcastically, “Has anything good ever come out of Nazareth?”, which I think is hilarious. Especially since he was immediately converted when he met Jesus 5 minutes later

Thank you all so much for the prayers and well-wishes.

I will keep you and Nathaniel in my prayers.

Oh I love our Lady, she has been so patient with me. When I converted I was so hardened to her because I came from a Protestant background. It is her intercession that does me so good.

God bless.

 

[Pug]

Anyway, it occurred to me that I have 2 issues with this teaching. The first is like the first example Jesus gave, where maybe I am not understanding the teaching in the sense that I am not looking at it correctly, through the light and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, and so perhaps as in the parable, Satan is snatching this teaching from me before it can take root. The second issue I have with this teaching is anxiety and concern about being overwhelmed either financially or emotionally, like the seeds that were sown among the thorns, but were choked out by the things of the world.

Anyway, I have decided that right now, I do not HAVE to predict the future or know exactly what I will do. I am pregnant now and intend (and have intended) to use NFP to avoid pregnancy after that. If I get pregnant again, I will obviously have to reassess my feelings, but thankfully, I don’t have to deal with that now. God doesn’t dump everything on us all at once, and I am confident that with prayer and trying to open my heart to God’s will as best I can, He will help me to make the right decision when and IF the time comes. For now, I am going to try to put away my anxieties, follow Church teaching, and hope and pray that NFP works for me and that I won’t be tested on this somewhere down the line. . If I am, God will help me through.

Stand enclosed in the palm of God’s hand, and you will be safe from any storm. You sound like you are being gentle with yourself, which is very good. Even a saint like Peter can feel anxiety as they look upon the stormy sea about them, but the Lord is right there!

Maybe keep a link in your computer to your post here (you can link to just a specific post, and not the whole thread, btw), to remind yourself of your words. They might prove to be a balm to you someday.

May the LORD bless you and keep you!
May the LORD shine his face upon you!
May the LORD give you peace!

 

[Corki]

This has never made sense to me. “ordered toward”? Really? So then children who have reached the age of reason should be able to marry and have sex because even though they are pre-pubescent and incapable of reproducing, their sex would be “ordered toward” procreation. Obviously that is a ridiculous idea…right?

Sex with a pre-pubescent child would not be ordered toward procreation. All of the teaching of the Church on this topic are within the context of marriage. First comes marriage - a couple must meet the requirements for a valid and Sacramental marriage. A child, even if he/she is physically able to have sex, doesn’t meet the requirements for a valid marriage. AFTER you look at the couple in terms of the marriage, you then look at the marriage act. An act cannot be ordered toward procreation or unitive UNLESS it is in the context of a valid marriage.

“Ordered toward procreation” is clunky language but it is important. It is tempting to use “procreative” as a shortcut instead but that is not as precise.

 

[LaSainte]

Sex with a pre-pubescent child would not be ordered toward procreation. All of the teaching of the Church on this topic are within the context of marriage. First comes marriage - a couple must meet the requirements for a valid and Sacramental marriage. A child, even if he/she is physically able to have sex, doesn’t meet the requirements for a valid marriage. AFTER you look at the couple in terms of the marriage, you then look at the marriage act. An act cannot be ordered toward procreation or unitive UNLESS it is in the context of a valid marriage.

“Ordered toward procreation” is clunky language but it is important. It is tempting to use “procreative” as a shortcut instead but that is not as precise.

So using contraception outside of marriage is not a sin, only the fornication that takes place?

 

[Corki]

So using contraception outside of marriage is not a sin, only the fornication that takes place?

Using contraception is a sin within the context of marriage. When you read the catechism material on contraception, the teaching is found in the section “The Love of a Husband and Wife” and in the sub-section “the fecundity of marriage”.

If a person is fornicating, using or not using contraception will not change the sinfullness of what they are doing.

It is impossible to use contraception outside of marriage without being engaged in a sinful act so it isn’t correct to say that “contraception outside of marriage is not a sin” or that contraception is “ok” or permitted outside of marriage.

 

[sw85]

This has never made sense to me. “ordered toward”? Really? So then children who have reached the age of reason should be able to marry and have sex because even though they are pre-pubescent and incapable of reproducing, their sex would be “ordered toward” procreation. Obviously that is a ridiculous idea…right?

You have really lost me with that line of reasoning.

What is at question here is the licitness of the act itself; and what determines the licitness of an act is its adherence to natural law. I cannot imagine how pre-pubescent children getting married could be construed as morally licit since they are (even in principle) incapable of procreation.

Once they hit puberty I don’t see why the act itself would be illicit – what would potentially be problematic is whether or not the children in question have the moral and intellectual development necessary to appreciate the duties to which they’re committing themselves and the financial resources to support the family they’d be starting. Obviously both of those are dependent on culture and individual circumstance, which is why we allow minors to marry provided they can demonstrate basic competence and maturity.

 

[LaSainte]

Stand enclosed in the palm of God’s hand, and you will be safe from any storm. You sound like you are being gentle with yourself, which is very good. Even a saint like Peter can feel anxiety as they look upon the stormy sea about them, but the Lord is right there!

Maybe keep a link in your computer to your post here (you can link to just a specific post, and not the whole thread, btw), to remind yourself of your words. They might prove to be a balm to you someday.

May the LORD bless you and keep you!
May the LORD shine his face upon you!
May the LORD give you peace!

Thank you Pug! Great idea

 

[LaSainte]

You have really lost me with that line of reasoning.

What is at question here is the licitness of the act itself; and what determines the licitness of an act is its adherence to natural law. I cannot imagine how pre-pubescent children getting married could be construed as morally licit since they are (even in principle) incapable of procreation.

Once they hit puberty I don’t see why the act itself would be illicit – what would potentially be problematic is whether or not the children in question have the moral and intellectual development necessary to appreciate the duties to which they’re committing themselves and the financial resources to support the family they’d be starting. Obviously both of those are dependent on culture and individual circumstance, which is why we allow minors to marry provided they can demonstrate basic competence and maturity.

But then aren’t senior citizens incapable of procreation “even in principle” as you say? I would think the same would apply whether you are incapable of procreation because you are too young or too old.

 

[LaSainte]

You have really lost me with that line of reasoning.

What is at question here is the licitness of the act itself; and what determines the licitness of an act is its adherence to natural law. I cannot imagine how pre-pubescent children getting married could be construed as morally licit since they are (even in principle) incapable of procreation.

Once they hit puberty I don’t see why the act itself would be illicit – what would potentially be problematic is whether or not the children in question have the moral and intellectual development necessary to appreciate the duties to which they’re committing themselves and the financial resources to support the family they’d be starting. Obviously both of those are dependent on culture and individual circumstance, which is why we allow minors to marry provided they can demonstrate basic competence and maturity.

But if one were going to confess pre-marital sex for example, would one also need to confess the use of a condom if they had used one?

 

[crazzeto]

But if one were going to confess pre-marital sex for example, would one also need to confess the use of a condom if they had used one?

Yes, they in fact should as these are seperate sins even if they do go hand in hand. A good examiniation of contience should be utilized prior to confession. If you have a smart phone there is a good one for iPhone and Android that walks you through the whole process.

 

[ddarko]

But if one were going to confess pre-marital sex for example, would one also need to confess the use of a condom if they had used one?

I think I see what you are tying to get at. No, the sin of contraception does not apply for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. There is no sin of contraception in a pre-marital or extra-marital affair.

But what you must realize is that pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex are GRAVE MORTAL SINS which harm the relationship between persons and God just as much as Contraception. Sex has become so common outside of marriage that our society doesn’t even realize how grave it is.

So in terms of sexual morality, SEX should not even be taking place to begin with in those cases since it is only proper within marriage. If it does, the SIN is SEX outside marriage. It does not make sense to speak of Contraception in that case.

To give an analogy, if someone murders a person (sex outside marriage in our case), it doesn’t make sense to speak of whether he went about doing it in a humane way (without contraception) or not. The act is disordered to begin with.

God Bless

 

[LaSainte]

I think I see what you are tying to get at. No, the sin of contraception does not apply for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. There is no sin of contraception in a pre-marital or extra-marital affair.

But what you must realize is that pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex are GRAVE MORTAL SINS which harm the relationship between persons and God just as much as Contraception. Sex has become so common outside of marriage that our society doesn’t even realize how grave it is.

So in terms of sexual morality, SEX should not even be taking place to begin with in those cases since it is only proper within marriage. If it does, the SIN is SEX outside marriage. It does not make sense to speak of Contraception in that case.

To give an analogy, if someone murders a person (sex outside marriage in our case), it doesn’t make sense to speak of whether he went about doing it in a humane way (without contraception) or not. The act is disordered to begin with.

God Bless

Gotcha. Thanks.

Although if you tortured someone to death like in the SAW movies or something as opposed to just shooting them, it might help the priest to council you if he knew about it. I think that changes the circumstances a good deal. And if you slept with your brother or sister, you should probably confess that as opposed to just saying “fornication”

 

[LaSainte]

Yes, they in fact should as these are seperate sins even if they do go hand in hand. A good examiniation of contience should be utilized prior to confession. If you have a smart phone there is a good one for iPhone and Android that walks you through the whole process.

I have that app and as much as I really don’t like going tO confession, part of me is excited to use it

 

[crazzeto]

I have that app and as much as I really don’t like going tO confession, part of me is excited to use it

the app is wonderful, it has improved my confession dramatically. As a bonus it also comes with a number of standard prayers you can read over, I really enjoy looking it over.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Thanks! Do you know of any of this is available online?

My two favourite resources I had to purchase, but the prices were decent. (Just a note, these are purely secular publications that may advocate practices contrary to Catholic teaching. I like them for the simple biology they explain.)

amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Your-Fertility-Anniversary/dp/0060881909/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310608880&sr=1-1

amazon.com/Honoring-Our-Cycles-Planning-Workbook/dp/096708976X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310608982&sr=8-1

Toni Weschler also has this website which you may find helpful:

tcoyf.com/

 

[sw85]

But then aren’t senior citizens incapable of procreation “even in principle” as you say? I would think the same would apply whether you are incapable of procreation because you are too young or too old.

Well, no.

The principle in question is simply that procreation occurs as a result of penetrative intercourse between a post-pubescent man and a post-pubescent woman.

This is true *in principle *even if it happens to be untrue in particular cases, such as age or disease rendering a couple infertile. Just as surely as it would be true for me to say that, in principle, “cats are four-legged” even though there are obviously some cats that have lost a leg due to injury or illness or congenital defect; we are speaking here of universals, not of particulars.

Hence sexual behavior is licit if it conforms to the principle and is illicit if it doesn’t. It’s the same principle that establishes the immorality of nonprocreative sexual acts and masturbation, as well as contraception.

By contrast, those who are incapable even in principle of producing children (such as male eunuchs or homosexual couples) are denied the right to marry because they cannot even complete the sexual act in a procreative fashion.