Sterilization followed by confession?

[LaSainte]

Well, no.

The principle in question is simply that procreation occurs as a result of penetrative intercourse between a post-pubescent man and a post-pubescent woman.

This is true *in principle *even if it happens to be untrue in particular cases, such as age or disease rendering a couple infertile. Just as surely as it would be true for me to say that, in principle, “cats are four-legged” even though there are obviously some cats that have lost a leg due to injury or illness or congenital defect; we are speaking here of universals, not of particulars.

Hence sexual behavior is licit if it conforms to the principle and is illicit if it doesn’t. It’s the same principle that establishes the immorality of nonprocreative sexual acts and masturbation, as well as contraception.

By contrast, those who are incapable even in principle of producing children (such as male eunuchs or homosexual couples) are denied the right to marry because they cannot even complete the sexual act in a procreative fashion.

Well now you’re just narrowing the field at will. I could say, “the principle is that sex between a post-pubescent male and female who are of child-bearing age and have no physical defects preventing them from reproducing…” etc. But that’s not the principle. You can’t just start applying caveats to “the principle” unless you are willing to admit others as well.

 

[LaSainte]

My two favourite resources I had to purchase, but the prices were decent. (Just a note, these are purely secular publications that may advocate practices contrary to Catholic teaching. I like them for the simple biology they explain.)

amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Your-Fertility-Anniversary/dp/0060881909/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310608880&sr=1-1

amazon.com/Honoring-Our-Cycles-Planning-Workbook/dp/096708976X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310608982&sr=8-1

Toni Weschler also has this website which you may find helpful:

tcoyf.com/

Thank you! I’ll check it out. I’ve heard good things about “taking charge of your fertility”.

 

[Little_One0307]

Thank you! I’ll check it out. I’ve heard good things about “taking charge of your fertility”.

Sounds a bit contraversy, feminist, and a bit Anti-Magisterial. LaSainte, if you read this, I know you are quite aware of the Teaching of the Church, will you please let me know in PM how far it is in line or not in line with Teaching of the Church.

I have heard this book recommended by several people, but I cannot bring myself to read it. So if you are going to check it out, I would appreciate a review if ya have the time to do it later.

I have so much to read now, and the books keep piling on. I used to think that someone was crazy when I first came into the Church. They said that they never read anything but Catholic books. I thougtht that was a narrow list of books, boy am I finding out that is not the case. There’s so many good books out there, and such a short lifetime to read them. More’s the pity. At least I have got a healthy amount to read right now, I won’t get bored any time soon.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[LaSainte]

Sounds a bit contraversy, feminist, and a bit Anti-Magisterial. LaSainte, if you read this, I know you are quite aware of the Teaching of the Church, will you please let me know in PM how far it is in line or not in line with Teaching of the Church.

I have heard this book recommended by several people, but I cannot bring myself to read it. So if you are going to check it out, I would appreciate a review if ya have the time to do it later.

I have so much to read now, and the books keep piling on. I used to think that someone was crazy when I first came into the Church. They said that they never read anything but Catholic books. I thougtht that was a narrow list of books, boy am I finding out that is not the case. There’s so many good books out there, and such a short lifetime to read them. More’s the pity. At least I have got a healthy amount to read right now, I won’t get bored any time soon.

Thanks and God bless.

When I get a chance to read it I will let you know. It might be awhile though. I don’t read many books that don’t contain pictures anymore

 

[sw85]

Well now you’re just narrowing the field at will. I could say, “the principle is that sex between a post-pubescent male and female who are of child-bearing age and have no physical defects preventing them from reproducing…” etc. But that’s not the principle. You can’t just start applying caveats to “the principle” unless you are willing to admit others as well.

Think of it this way. How is procreation achieved?

A man inserts his penis into a woman’s vagina and ejaculates into it. (This is a statement of principle. It is universally true, even if there are exceptions to it; even those exceptions are really just attempts to emulate this process in a different milieu).

Sex acts which conform to that principle are licit and those which do not are illicit.

Obviously, this principle necessarily entails pubescence. Can a prepubescent male child even complete the sex act, for instance? He may be able to achieve erection but he has nothing to ejaculate.

It does not, however, necessarily entail a maximum age. People can continue to complete the act well into old age. Again, that is a statement of principle: some are unable to achieve erection, for instance. But that is not necessary to their physiology, it is simply a defect in that particular person’s physiology.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Thank you! I’ll check it out. I’ve heard good things about “taking charge of your fertility”.

You’re very welcome.

Sounds a bit contraversy, feminist, and a bit Anti-Magisterial. LaSainte, if you read this, I know you are quite aware of the Teaching of the Church, will you please let me know in PM how far it is in line or not in line with Teaching of the Church.

Until LaSainte gets a chance to give you a review, I’ll just let you know *Taking Charge of Your Fertility *is a strictly secular book with some good writing on fertility awareness. It discusses the use of barrier contraception during fertility for couples who are avoiding pregnancy but don’t wish to abstain and includes information on IVF. It is not always in line with Catholic teaching, but it’s certainly not anti-Catholic. TCOYF, while not overtly feminist, is definitely pro-woman. If you, as a Catholic, feel uncomfortable with such things, this is a good online Catholic resource which I should’ve included for LaSainte:

nfpandmore.org/

When I get a chance to read it I will let you know. It might be awhile though. I don’t read many books that don’t contain pictures anymore

You’ll be pleased to know that TCOYF does indeed contain pictures! Cartoons too.

 

[Little_One0307]

Until LaSainte gets a chance to give you a review, I’ll just let you know *Taking Charge of Your Fertility *is a strictly secular book with some good writing on fertility awareness. It discusses the use of barrier contraception during fertility for couples who are avoiding pregnancy but don’t wish to abstain and includes information on IVF. It is not always in line with Catholic teaching, but it’s certainly not anti-Catholic. TCOYF, while not overtly feminist, is definitely pro-woman. If you, as a Catholic, feel uncomfortable with such things, this is a good online Catholic resource which I should’ve included for LaSainte:

nfpandmore.org/

You’ll be pleased to know that TCOYF does indeed contain pictures! Cartoons too.

Thanks so much for writing this.

God bless.

 

[Alfred_Hili]

LaSainte, truly only God knows. We are humans. We have the beautiful teachings of the church to follow. We can sit here and speculate and we can quote the catechism, but truly only God knows.

Our God is a God of Mercy. He knows the hearts of people and forgives when the case is genuine. I can’t understand why certain theologians make it so difficult for us to go to heaven.

 

[Alfred_Hili]

You have really lost me with that line of reasoning.

What is at question here is the licitness of the act itself; and what determines the licitness of an act is its adherence to natural law. I cannot imagine how pre-pubescent children getting married could be construed as morally licit since they are (even in principle) incapable of procreation.

Once they hit puberty I don’t see why the act itself would be illicit – what would potentially be problematic is whether or not the children in question have the moral and intellectual development necessary to appreciate the duties to which they’re committing themselves and the financial resources to support the family they’d be starting. Obviously both of those are dependent on culture and individual circumstance, which is why we allow minors to marry provided they can demonstrate basic competence and maturity.

Responsible parenthood is very important. It’s all right to avoid using contraceptives but then it’s wrong to have children you are unable to look after.