Sterilization of severely retarded woman to prevent involuntary pregnancy?

[HomeschoolDad]

If watches television all day and is on the Internet, and has the mentality of a 6 year old, then someone should stealthfully make sure that what she has access to nothing but good influences; Lives of the Saints, Bible stories, audiobooks, holy reminders, heaven, hell, purgatory, love for neighbor, missionaries at work, inspiring music, how to pray, etc. She’s not someone to be sterilized like an animal; she’s someone who has been put specifically in time within a specific circle of people, in order to provide them an opportunity to grow in holiness and gain merit through Christian love which is self-sacrifice.
Begin non-stop novenas for specific milestones. Also, send her picture and first name to good convents, especially those who have perpetual adoration, and specifically request fir prayers for her.

The worst possible thing is to allow her to fill her mind with all the poisonous noise that is Hollywood and the Internet. hopefully they can somewhat control what she feeds her mind with and has access to.

Write to Dr. Ray Guarendi about it.

These people are not Catholics. She could have been baptized Orthodox as an infant (being Russian), but I am just guessing. To my knowledge the family does not practice religion. They are good people, just unchurched.

As long as she is kept home, and her mother and neighbors can keep an eye on the situation, she is probably entirely safe. However, if she would ever have to go back into the co-ed group home, we have already seen in this thread an article from the National Catholic Bioethics Center, and a scholarly theological article that has some very good arguments for reluctantly administering temporary contraception in cases such as this.

There is no person on this forum who detests the deliberate and voluntary use of contraceptives more than I do. This sin, if accompanied by sufficient reflection and full consent of the will, has the potential to separate more people in the developed world from the grace of God, than probably any other mortal sin. It is basically mutual self-pleasuring. However, there is no question of voluntary fornication here. Mentally and spiritually, she is a child. If she were my daughter, and if I were in the sad predicament of having to send her to a facility where this danger exists, I would take these two articles to a priest faithful to the magisterium, and ask him if this sort of medication would be licit in our circumstances.

ncbcenter.org

MSOB129_Catholics_and_Acceptable_Uses_of_Contraceptives.pdf​

339.34 KB

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/002436310803888745

 

[Lee3]

It sounds like a very sad situation

Honestly, I think it’s extremely concerning if her parents would even contemplate sending her back to live in a place where theres potential of her being raped.
Regardless of if she has poor cognitive understanding, she’s still a woman and should be treated like any woman regarding fears of being raped.

She isn’t just a ”thing” that can be placed in these situations because there is nowhere/noone else who can deal with her anger/emotional dysregulation.
It’s worrying that the concern is more about the consequence of rape than any rape itself.

Is there perhaps a nun convent that would be willing to look after her on respite periods or have Catholic organizations now also outsourced everything to government like everyone else?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Honestly, I think it’s extremely concerning if her parents would even contemplate sending her back to live in a place where theres potential of her being raped.
Regardless of if she has poor cognitive understanding, she’s still a woman and should be treated like any woman regarding fears of being raped.

She isn’t just a ”thing” that can be placed in these situations because there is nowhere/noone else who can deal with her anger/emotional dysregulation.
It’s worrying that the concern is more about the consequence of rape than any rape itself.

Just to be clear here, violent rape by a man in full possession of his faculties (such as a care worker) is not terribly likely. I had more in mind either someone of normal faculties enticing her to sex, perhaps by “getting on her good side” in some way and seducing her into activity — possibly feigning interest in her favorite children’s show character (that is the mental level she is on) — or one of the fellow patients, possibly in as bad a condition as she is in.

Is there perhaps a nun convent that would be willing to look after her on respite periods or have Catholic organizations now also outsourced everything to government like everyone else?

The family is not Catholic. I think I brought this out earlier in the thread, but if I had to surmise, if her family thinks she might be in this danger, in all likelihood they’ve already taken care of the situation. Non-Catholics would have absolutely no qualms about doing the “practical and prudent thing”.

“Back in the day”, such facilities would have been segregated by sex, for obvious reasons. Mixing and mingling of the genders in institutions would have been very much frowned on.

 

[Lea101]

Just to be clear here, violent rape by a man in full possession of his faculties (such as a care worker) is not terribly likely. I had more in mind either someone of normal faculties enticing her to sex, perhaps by “getting on her good side” in some way and seducing her into activity — possibly feigning interest in her favorite children’s show character (that is the mental level she is on) — or one of the fellow patients, possibly in as bad a condition as she is in.

To be honest, I don’t get why there’s a need to distinguish this. It’s still rape and it’s still abhorrent, so it doesn’t take away from the point you’re responding to?

 

[o_mlly]

… perhaps by “getting on her good side” in some way and seducing her into activity …

Seduction is as evil as coercion.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Just to be clear here, violent rape by a man in full possession of his faculties (such as a care worker) is not terribly likely. I had more in mind either someone of normal faculties enticing her to sex, perhaps by “getting on her good side” in some way and seducing her into activity — possibly feigning interest in her favorite children’s show character (that is the mental level she is on) — or one of the fellow patients, possibly in as bad a condition as she is in.

To be honest, I don’t get why there’s a need to distinguish this. It’s still rape and it’s still abhorrent, so it doesn’t take away from the point you’re responding to?

Actually, the latter scenario — one of the fellow patients — isn’t really “rape” so much as it is two profoundly disabled persons, whose physical urges are unaffected by their affliction, engaging in activity and not comprehending the consequences. The better solution, which previous generations understood, is to keep the sexes segregated.

HomeschoolDad:

… perhaps by “getting on her good side” in some way and seducing her into activity …

Seduction is as evil as coercion.

No argument there.

 

[Lee3]

Personally I think that in these situations for the most part it should still be females living together and males living together.
I don’t think people with disability should be stopped from having love or relationships -on the contrary-they should be supported.
But at the same time I think there’s a great responsibility to ensure that the relationship is two way and not a female feeling pressured/exploited/taken advantage of whether due to poor cognitive state or that plus a combination of neediness/wanting love.

Maybe sometimes something good comes out of these “mixed sex arrangements” but for the most people it can be a recipe for trouble and I don’t understand why USA has become so politically correct that these “group homes” have to be mixed?
There’s enough women in the world that don’t live with a man before marriage or serious relationship so why should these “homes” be any different?
At the very least, the people in these situations should be first strongly supported with life/perceptual/comprehension/emotional etc skills before they choose to live in mixed sex places.
But it should be a choice , and it doesn’t sound like it is a choice at present.

On the other hand, (and I’m not minimalising your friends daughters situation) but maybe also keep in mind that there are many cognitive capable people that make bad decisions everyday and end up pregnant.
Yes, sad to say, there are countless “healthy” individuals who are having children and messing up their lives everyday. Whether the young girls we see on Teen mom, the deadbeat absent fathers with children to numerous women, the “rich old men” having children with girls young enough to be their daughters, or the drug addicted parents/parents who teach and model to their kids to commit crime -
ie: many kids are being born and raised to/by people who are in no way capable of raising healthy, mature, balanced individuals etc.

So if sterilisation was the answer, it could be debated that it should be extended also to other people who mess up children’s lives in a variety of ways…

The main issues are firstly how to protect this girl from the predatory types of guys.
And secondly if by chance she was to become pregnant from a mutual relationship with a guy that was “ok” but also had mental/cognitive issues would her parents be willing to raise the child?

Have her parents ever tried any types of cognitive remediation for her or Autism skills help if any exist in her country/area?
I know that you mentioned her issues are quite profound and longstanding but I have see instances of dramatic change in people who had severe Autism etc and were very “insular” who you would think there’s little hope for if you saw them.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I don’t think people with disability should be stopped from having love or relationships -on the contrary-they should be supported.

I am all in favor of the mentally disabled having loving relationships. Like anyone else, they must remain chaste until marriage. The whole idea of mentally disabled people having children comes with many problems. Pretty much everyone outside the Catholic Church would say that these people should be sterilized — let them marry if they wish, but don’t put them in the position of bringing children into the world. I am not saying that is right — it’s not — but that is the consensus of society outside the Catholic Church. Secular society is very self-congratulatory about how wise it is to use birth control.

And secondly if by chance she was to become pregnant from a mutual relationship with a guy that was “ok” but also had mental/cognitive issues would her parents be willing to raise the child?

The parents are divorced and the girl is being raised by her mother, who is in her late 50s and has many issues of her own. The father is nowhere around and is not a part of the girl’s life. It wouldn’t be the best environment for raising and educating a small child.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Have her parents ever tried any types of cognitive remediation for her or Autism skills help if any exist in her country/area? I know that you mentioned her issues are quite profound and longstanding but I have see instances of dramatic change in people who had severe Autism etc and were very “insular” who you would think there’s little hope for if you saw them.

It’s not clear that the girl is autistic. She is actually quite talkative and expresses herself decently, but when she starts talking about her favorite children’s show character, you immediately know something is very wrong. If I had to guess, I would say it is probably fetal alcohol syndrome with severe rage issues, possible schizophrenia, tamped down by potent medication. She has the mind of a six-year-old child.

I do believe there is such a thing as autism, but I think it is verging on becoming a “trash diagnosis”, especially the milder forms such as Asperger syndrome. I went to school with a guy, stellar basketball player, who shot baskets four hours a day in the gym — was he Asperger’s? That’s a lot of baskets. My uncle lived, breathed, slept, ate, and talked business every waking moment of his life, had multiple business ventures, never took a vacation (he would go hunting now and then) — was he Asperger’s? Couldn’t talk about a thing in the world except his next business venture. People in Poland have marathon round-table discussions at each other’s homes (often fueled by desserts and vodka), a person will talk for 15 minutes without coming up for air, no one interrupts, then the next guy talks for 15 minutes, and so on — are they all autistic? Crashing bores, who drone on endlessly about subjects that are only interesting to them and no one else, have been around since the dawn of time. Self-centeredness and bad manners — or autism?

I happened to speak with the mother last night (obviously I did not tell her about this thread!) and the girl is now in some kind of home across town. I didn’t ask, she brought it up. I don’t know the particulars, nor would I have asked.

Hope all goes well.

 

[Lee3]

I had to guess, I would say it is probably fetal alcohol syndrome with severe rage issues, possible schizophrenia, tamped down by potent medication.

Personally, I think that these “diagnostic categories” such as Schizophrenia, Autism etc has really just held back advancements in treatments for these types of symptoms.
They have just served the purpose of Psychiatrists and less so of patients. In other words, they are just Dsm made up categories which don’t really reflect scientific knowledge.
They help Psychiatrists let go of their own sense of uncertainty and to pick a medication according to that “diagnostic category”.
In reality though, scientific studies have shown over and over again that there is an overlap between Schizophrenia (or schizoaffective) and Autism and that even the genes overlap.

The failing of these “distinct diagnostic categories” is also evidenced by the fact that many people are resistant to treatments from their “diagnosed category” and also the reality that if they go to one Psychiatrist they can be given diagnosis A, and if they go to a different Psychiatrist they are given diagnosis B.
So clearly there is little scientific evidence behind this method of diagnosis, no consistency and is very subjective.

It’s really nonsense even having a diagnostic term like Schizophrenia because the really is that patients with “Schizophrenia type symptoms” can be quite different from one another and their symptoms be caused by different disease processes.
Even with Diabetes there are terms like type 1 and type 2 to distinguish the differences and different causes.
Psychiatry would be better serving people by moving to a similar model.

Psychiatry and/or disability services, as they are today, are often failing many people, as is shown by your example with your friends daughter.
Services are substandard (to put it mildly) and parents are left to pick up the pieces or left with little support.

Forgetting diagnostic categories, the most likely situation like you mentioned is fetal alcohol syndrome.
This in turn does cause “Autism type” symptoms and “schizophrenia type” symptoms.

Girls with Autism (from various causes) seem different then boys with Autism and some can appear more social etc.

 

[Lee3]

With your examples I think the difference is the place the person is coming from mentally.
Ie: a person could shoot hoops for hours on end or practice piano a lot but it’s from a cognitive aware choice to be disciplined, make sacrifices and have single tracked focused to reach the goal they have in mind.
Whereas a person with Autism doing the same thing often does it from a place of obsession.
Naturally we often think of obsession as a negative but I guess it can be positive too in a sense that it can achieve results.

There’s a film that you might be interested in called Love on the spectrum that shows young women with Autism (if you are able to view it in your country.)?
The “outgoing but childish” like your friends daughter seems to be a common thread amongst the girls on this show.

It’s really very sad her situation and that this is the case for some other children adopted from Russia and Ukraine too.
I think Putin has banned US adoptions now, but before I think US adopted parents sometimes expected a “perfect child” but the children often end up having behavioral issues in time (which they can’t control or help) due to fetal alcohol syndrome and/or abuse affecting their brain as a baby or toddler.
It’s a hard situation because some people in much poverty in Russia are driven to alcoholism but then on the other hand some adopted parents in US were neglecting them or want to try to give them back “like a toy” because they couldn’t “handle” their behaviours.
It’s a awful situation for the children who can’t win either way…

I’ll definitely keep her and her family in my prayers

https://www.google.com/search?q=lov...j0j4&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Autism characteristics in children with fetal alcohol spectrum disorders - PubMed

Current findings signify that FASD and autism share similarities with regard to social and communicative functioning. These findings, which further our knowledge of the FASD phenotype, may be useful in specifying the particular interventions these children need.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Forgetting diagnostic categories, the most likely situation like you mentioned is fetal alcohol syndrome.
This in turn does cause “Autism type” symptoms and “schizophrenia type” symptoms.

It very likely is FAS. She is a lovely girl but her eyes are kind of wide-set apart, such as you see with FAS. Jacqueline Kennedy had eyes like this too, and she didn’t have FAS.

It’s really very sad her situation and that this is the case for some other children adopted from Russia and Ukraine too.

I think Putin has banned US adoptions now, but before I think US adopted parents sometimes expected a “perfect child” but the children often end up having behavioral issues in time (which they can’t control or help) due to fetal alcohol syndrome and/or abuse affecting their brain as a baby or toddler.

It’s a hard situation because some people in much poverty in Russia are driven to alcoholism but then on the other hand some adopted parents in US were neglecting them or want to try to give them back “like a toy” because they couldn’t “handle” their behaviours.

There have been a lot of problems with Russian adoptions. It’s just a known fact that Russia has historically had a severe public health problem with alcoholism.