Sterilization

[Thoughtfulone]

What is to prevent someone from getting a vasectomy/tubal ligation and then going to confession for forgiveness afterwards?

 

[Pug]

Contrition.

It is a requirement of the sacrament. Without it, there is no forgiveness of the sin. Of course, someone could have had the surgery done many years ago and then truly repent once they grow in wisdom. All sins can be forgiven once we repent. But I don’t think that is what you are asking about. A deliberate end-run around a known mortal sin, with no contrition, does not work. God knows the difference.

 

[Joe_5859]

Contrition.

It is a requirement of the sacrament. Without it, there is no forgiveness of the sin. Of course, someone could have had the surgery done many years ago and then truly repent once they grow in wisdom. All sins can be forgiven once we repent. But I don’t think that is what you are asking about. A deliberate end-run around a known mortal sin, with no contrition, does not work. God knows the difference.

And it also adds the additional sin of presumption.

 

[Paul2274]

Nothing.

But to get one of those procedures done knowing that it is against Church teaching and the Will of God, trying to “CYA” (or soul in this case) by going to confession is wrong as well. Entering into the Sacrament of Reconciliation without having true contrition for ones sins means that you are not forgiven. Confession doesn’t work like that.

Here’s an idea… follow along and bare with me…

Your best friend walks by you and punches you as hard as they can in the face.
Best friend says…“Oh! Sorry”
You forgive them. All is well.

Next day… best friend walks by you and punches you as hard as they can in the face.
Best friend says…“Oh! Sorry”
You think that this should not happen but…You forgive them. All is well.

Next day… best friend walks by you and punches you as hard as they can in the face.
Best friend says…“Oh! Sorry”
Now you’re thinking that this is not an accident and they are doing this on purpose but…
You forgive them. All is well.

Next day… best friend walks by you and punches you as hard as they can in the face.
Best friend says…“Oh! Sorry”
etc, etc, etc,etc…

Now what is it like when we sin the same sins over and over and we say we are sorry to God and He forgives us and gives us His Grace???
Kinda like us punching God in the face, saying we are sorry in the confessional and going out and doing it again thinking all we have to do is go back and say sorry again.

To be cleansed of sins we must be truly sorry (or contrite) to be forgiven and we should with all our being try not to commit those sins again.

Remember sin is direct and purposeful disobedience to God’s Commandments and a willful (on our part) separation from God or rather… us pushing God away.

God’s Mercy and Forgiveness are endless yes… but we have to truly be sorry for that separation and want God’s Forgiveness and try to not commit that sin again… and yes we will all fail from time to time and that is our weakness from our fallen nature but don’t do it on purpose… don’t push God out!

Peace of Christ be with you now and always,
Happy New Year,

Paul

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Absolutely nothing.

Assuming the person who had the sterilization displays either imperfect or perfect contrition they would be forgiven. There is no waiting period and they don’t have to wait until they feel remorse.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

And it also adds the additional sin of presumption.

Ok this is a point of confusion for me. Can’t they just confess the sin of presumption?

The sin of presumption as its been explained to me is believing that God will forgive you your sins without you having to ask for forgiveness. Assuming that the person realizes they must confess their sins and repent then they haven’t committed the sin of presumption. The person who commits presumption is the one who doesn’t confess his sins and believes that God will forgive him anyway.

 

[slywakka250]

Why would they go to confession if they felt no remorse???

If they go to confession, they are indeed forgiven. But if the people were healthy before the sterillization (the sterillization wasn’t done for medical reasons), then it does damage to the body.

It makes the person unable to reproduce, and this in many cases takes away from the fullness of life which God wants to give us, in addition to being an act of disobedience, which strains ones relationship with God in the first place. So why bother??

 

[davidv]

Ok this is a point of confusion for me. Can’t they just confess the sin of presumption?

The sin of presumption as its been explained to me is believing that God will forgive you your sins without you having to ask for forgiveness. Assuming that the person realizes they must confess their sins and repent then they haven’t committed the sin of presumption. The person who commits presumption is the one who doesn’t confess his sins and believes that God will forgive him anyway.

The Catechism states:

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

What is potentially being described in the OP, is the second kind of presumption. Presuming God’d forgiveness without conversion whether confessed, or not.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

The Catechism states:
What is potentially being described in the OP, is the second kind of presumption. Presuming God’d forgiveness without conversion whether confessed, or not.

What is being described is not presuming on God’s forgiveness without repentance. While what the person described is doing is twisted, it is not presumption since he acknowledges how depraved his sin is and recognize in a small way the need for repentance and confession before receiving forgiveness.

If sinning while planning on confessing later is presumption can’t you just confess it along with your other sins? Or would that add the sin of presumption to the sin of presumption? And can’t you simply confess the added sins of presumption as well, on to infinity?

Every sin we commit we commit knowing it is wrong and with the plan of confessing it later on. Do we commit presumption ever time we sin?

 

[Rence]

What is to prevent someone from getting a vasectomy/tubal ligation and then going to confession for forgiveness afterwards?

Nothing.

If you think about it, no matter what sin we commit, by definition, we know it’s a sin, otherwise we wouldn’t know we had to go to confession to confess it…so in a way, everyone is sinning with the knowledge that they are sinning, and then going to confession for reconciliation. At the back of our minds, we know we will go to confession, as we are sinning, whether we are conscious of that thought or not.

what’s to prevent someone from vetting a vasectomy/tubal ligation with the though of going to confession and confessing both the act, and the intention to go to confession afterwards? Nothing. They be sorry for both after the fact.

There’s also nothing to say that such a person isn’t sorry for offending God, even if he really isn’t sorry for the action he/she took in the first place. For example, if one engages in premarital sex and as a result ends up with a beautiful child, though they may be sorry that they offended God by committing the sin of fornication, I highly doubt they would regret helping to bring that child into the world, even if the child was conceived out of wedlock.

 

[Joe_5859]

What is being described is not presuming on God’s forgiveness without repentance. While what the person described is doing is twisted, it is not presumption since he acknowledges how depraved his sin is and recognize in a small way the need for repentance and confession before receiving forgiveness.

If sinning while planning on confessing later is presumption can’t you just confess it along with your other sins? Or would that add the sin of presumption to the sin of presumption? And can’t you simply confess the added sins of presumption as well, on to infinity?

Every sin we commit we commit knowing it is wrong and with the plan of confessing it later on. Do we commit presumption ever time we sin?

Davidv beat me to the CCC citation, but he is correct that I was talking about that second definition of presumption.

I’ve had that same thought, too, about confessing the sin of presumption ad infinitum. I would only confess it the once, though, or else I’d be there all day. (“And for the sin of presumption in presuming I would be forgiven for the sin of presumption in presuming I would be forgiven for the sin of presumption in presuming I would be forgiven for the sin of presumption in presuming…”)

It would certainly be something to discuss with one’s confessor if one felt so called, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say we commit presumption every time we sin. Presumption would be a sitting there thinking, “Well, I can make it to Confession at such-and-such church at such-and-such time before I have to go to Mass again, so it’s okay for me to turn on my computer and look at racy pictures on the internet.”

I would say, though, that even the mere fact that the person recognizes the necessity of and importance of going to Confession after such and act probably has at least a minimal amount of imperfect contrition, which is sufficient for forgiveness via the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So I certainly wouldn’t dub them unforgiven or anything like that. If someone’s stepping out of a confessional, I would presume they were forgiven. Anything else is between them and their confessor (and God, of course).

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Absolutely nothing.

Assuming the person who had the sterilization displays either imperfect or perfect contrition they would be forgiven. There is no waiting period and they don’t have to wait until they feel remorse.

Exactly. As long as one even has imperfect contrition (attrition, fear of Hell), and intends not to sin again (impossible to commit the same sin again in this case), then one is forgiven right?

 

[Joe_5859]

Exactly. As long as one even has imperfect contrition (attrition, fear of Hell), and intends not to sin again (impossible to commit the same sin again in this case), then one is forgiven right?

I hope this thread has just been an exercise in speculating on a hypothetical question…

But, in real life, I would still definitely counsel such a person to talk to a priest before they go through with something irreversible. There are reasons for the Church’s teaching on the immorality of sterilization. Any Catholic would do well to strive to understand why the Church teaches as she does.

If the sterilization has already taken place, I would counsel the person to go to Confession ASAP and also to still strive to understand why the Church teaches as she does.

I would never counsel someone to just do what they want and go to Confession for it later if it violates one of the Church’s “rules”.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Exactly. As long as one even has imperfect contrition (attrition, fear of Hell), and intends not to sin again (impossible to commit the same sin again in this case), then one is forgiven right?

I’ve thought about this too. For example two couples are called to abstain from sexual relations because of a serious medical condition.

Couple A is sterilized and then confesses. They are in the state of mortal sin for 1 day

Couple B attempts to live according to the Church’s teaching. However, they are only human and the call to abstain is very challenging so they do occasionally commit mortal sins.

Now, doing a little bit off sin-calculus it seems the safer bet is to take the easy way out and get sterilized. You remove the temptation to sin, provide a safe outlet for concupiscence, and will probably spend less time in the state of mortal sin. It seems so wrong but it appears as if the couple who sins is better off.

 

[Pug]

Exactly. As long as one even has imperfect contrition (attrition, fear of Hell), and intends not to sin again (impossible to commit the same sin again in this case), then one is forgiven right?

Yes, as long as one has imperfect contrition, then they will be absolved if they go to confession. The contrition must be sincere. Contrition/repentance involves a change of heart. Let me provide a quote from an orthodox Catholic moral theologian, Germain Grisez. It seems to directly address the issue I am concerned about.People with a legalistic mentality sometimes suppose there is an easy out for Catholic couples who accept the Church’s teaching on contraception, yet want no more children and do not wish to abstain during the fertile period: let one spouse be sterilized and that spouse (or both) confess the sin; then the couple can engage in intercourse whenever they please without worrying about pregnancy or feeling guilty about contraception. The trouble with this supposed solution is that a sin is not simply a technical violation which can be repaired by going to confession. The choice of sterilization, like any sin, is a self-determination, an existential self-mutilation more profound than the physical self-mutilation of sterilization; and this self-determination lasts until the person repents. Consequently, unless those who have tried to solve their problems by means of sterilization are truly contrite—“I wish I had not done that, and if I had it to do over, I would never make that choice”—confession is fruitless for them.
Also, please try reading what the catechism says about interior repentance.1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.
1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one’s life, with hope in God’s mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).

I strongly recommend you talk with a priest/confessor about any course of action you might take here before you do it. I guess I am worried that you might think that a) taking a step into mortal sin won’t hurt you, or b) that there is something specific about the sin of sterilization that makes it so there are no requirements like having a change of heart or a hatred of the sin or sorrow.

 

[PaschalCatholic]

What is to prevent someone from getting a vasectomy/tubal ligation and then going to confession for forgiveness afterwards?

Other people may have mentioned contrition and the like which goes well with what I’m going to say. (this may have been said too)
The action you describe includes the idea of the moral agent (the person in question) committing the act of presumption, that is assuming that a sin is ok to commit because upon doing so one can simply go to confession to have it wiped away. This is problematic because it does not require anything of us, but God -who we know did not commit any sin. The sin is our weight and we must choose to take it from our shoulders and give to God, not just acknowledge and continue on. God seeks people of a kind who want nothing but Himself, as Lewis and George MacDonald say, we cannot hope to keep a bit of hell in Heaven, we must rid ourselves of all of it.
God bless,
B

 

[Thoughtfulone]

So it seems like some here are saying that it is necessary to convert your whole heart, to say that one wishes they had never committed the sin…but this is not what the Church teaches about confession and reconciliation. The Church teaches that attrition is enough for forgiveness. As long as one is afraid of Hell, makes a good confession and is resolved to sin no more, they are absolved, correct?

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church :

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

1454 The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.53

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm#VII

(PS some may be concerned about “lack of some desired feelings” but we can not always move our feelings…so no particular “feeling” is required) (also note…venial sins can be remitted in various ways…prayer etc…one does not need perfect contrition per se)

Compendium:

1. What are the acts of the penitent?

1450-1460
1487-1492

They are: a careful examination of conscience; contrition (or repentance), which is perfect when it is motivated by love of God and imperfect if it rests on other motives and which includes the determination not to sin again; confession, which consists in the telling of one’s sins to the priest; and satisfaction or the carrying out of certain acts of penance which the confessor imposes upon the penitent to repair the damage caused by sin.

 

[Bookcat]

In contrition… it can be said …(even the form of contrition called also “attrition”)…is included the fact that one wishes one had not done the sin…one retracts it…one detests the sin…this is repentance…

It does not mean though I think that one has to go “one by one” through everything…and say out loud “I wish I had not done that”…they can be I think taken somewhat as a whole…

But one is turning from sin and towards Christ.

(of course remember that some things are different between confessing etc mortal sins and venial sins as I have noted before…for example in terms of the purpose of amendment …say one has a particular venial sin that one has difficulty with…one can for example resolve to at least lessen its frequency…for we can have daily struggles with such venial sins…)

 

[Thoughtfulone]

In contrition… it can be said …(even the form of contrition called also “attrition”)…is included the fact that one wishes one had not done the sin…one retracts it…one detests the sin…this is repentance…

It does not mean though I think that one has to go “one by one” through everything…and say out loud “I wish I had not done that”…they can be I think taken somewhat as a whole…

But one is turning from sin and towards Christ.

(of course remember that some things are different between confessing etc mortal sins and venial sins as I have noted before…for example in terms of the purpose of amendment …say one has a particular venial sin that one has difficulty with…one can for example resolve to at least lessen its frequency…for we can have daily struggles with such venial sins…)

I have confessed sins (such as using contraception) that I have stopped doing out of obedience to the church, but that I did not necessarily wish to take back. Like a previous poster said, if one has a child out of wedlock, but confesses to sex out of wedlock, that person obviously does not wish that they had never had sex out of wedlock or they would not have had that child. I see nowhere that says one must wish to “take back” a sin in order to be forgiven, but merely be afraid of the punishment for the sin.