Sterilization

[Bookcat]

I have confessed sins (such as using contraception) that I have stopped doing out of obedience to the church, but that I did not necessarily wish to take back. Like a previous poster said, if one has a child out of wedlock, but confesses to sex out of wedlock, that person obviously does not wish that they had never had sex out of wedlock or they would not have had that child. I see nowhere that says one must wish to “take back” a sin in order to be forgiven, but merely be afraid of the punishment for the sin.

Yes part of contrition for contraception is to reject the sin…basically wish one had never sinned…had never used contraception (such perhaps can be a package deal…in the case of when the relations were not marital…one rejects the whole thing…from A therefore B …etc)

The example of the child does not work here.

One rejects the sin and wishes it never happened…but one accepts and loves the child…(wishes he came from within marriage). One loves and raises the child of course.

A person cannot rob a bank and then confess it if he does not repent. Nor can he later think back “I am glad I robbed that bank”…

Now it can happen that a person recognizes something is a mortal sin …and has contrition for it and confesses it etc…but does not “feel” the rejection of it…and maybe does not even fully “understand” or “experience” why it is gravely wrong…is not able to “feel it in his bones yet” …but one accepts that it is such (due to say the Teaching of the Church) …and desires to be forgiven and be back in the grace of Christ…in friendship with him…and thus repents etc… as the CCC notes above one “detests” the sin…

"Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again”

 

[Pug]

So it seems like some here are saying that it is necessary to convert your whole heart, to say that one wishes they had never committed the sin…but this is not what the Church teaches about confession and reconciliation. The Church teaches that attrition is enough for forgiveness. As long as one is afraid of Hell, makes a good confession and is resolved to sin no more, they are absolved, correct?

We can’t convert our heart, only grace can (we cooperate). And I don’t think it must be our whole heart, not as I understand it. It just must touch our heart, or maybe you’d like the word “will” better. It must be interior. It doesn’t have touch our emotions so we cry like at a funeral or some other highly emotional time. Here is a quote from the Roman Catechism (the one before the CCC):
By the Fathers of the Council of Trent, contrition is defined: A sorrow and detestation for sin committed, with a purpose of sinning no more. and a little further on the Council, speaking of the motion of the will to contrition, adds: If joined with a confidence in the mercy of God and an earnest desire of per forming whatever is necessary to the proper reception of the Sacrament, it thus prepares us for the remission of sin.

From this definition, therefore, the faithful will perceive that the efficacy of contrition does not simply consist in ceasing to sin, or in resolving to begin, or having actually begun a new life; it supposes first of all a hatred of one’s ill-spent life and a desire of atoning for past transgressions.
You used the word “wish”. If that means your emotions, then no, I don’t think the word is the right one. A sin of adultery might have produced a child. Of course you love the child and don’t have to un-wish the child.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

We can’t convert our heart, only grace can (we cooperate). And I don’t think it must be our whole heart, not as I understand it. It just must touch our heart, or maybe you’d like the word “will” better. It must be interior. It doesn’t have touch our emotions so we cry like at a funeral or some other highly emotional time. Here is a quote from the Roman Catechism (the one before the CCC):
By the Fathers of the Council of Trent, contrition is defined: A sorrow and detestation for sin committed, with a purpose of sinning no more. and a little further on the Council, speaking of the motion of the will to contrition, adds: If joined with a confidence in the mercy of God and an earnest desire of per forming whatever is necessary to the proper reception of the Sacrament, it thus prepares us for the remission of sin.

From this definition, therefore, the faithful will perceive that the efficacy of contrition does not simply consist in ceasing to sin, or in resolving to begin, or having actually begun a new life; it supposes first of all a hatred of one’s ill-spent life and a desire of atoning for past transgressions.
You used the word “wish”. If that means your emotions, then no, I don’t think the word is the right one. A sin of adultery might have produced a child. Of course you love the child and don’t have to un-wish the child.

Which one is it then? I wasn’t aware you had to “feel” anything to be contrite.

Consequently, unless those who have tried to solve their problems by means of sterilization are truly contrite—“I wish I had not done that, and if I had it to do over, I would never make that choice”—confession is fruitless for them.

Do you have to un-wish your sin in order to receive forgiveness or don’t you?

Making an act of the will I can understand, but how can you possible make yourself feel “I wish I hadn’t done that”. How can you ever be forgiven if you love the results of your sin? You might feel, “I wish I never offended God because I fear hell but I am glad I have child as a result of my actions.”

or

“I wish I never offended God because I fear hell but I am glad I don’t have to fear a pregnancy any more.”

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Which one is it then? I wasn’t aware you had to “feel” anything to be contrite.

Do you have to un-wish your sin in order to receive forgiveness or don’t you?

Making an act of the will I can understand, but how can you possible make yourself feel “I wish I hadn’t done that”. How can you ever be forgiven if you love the results of your sin? You might feel, “I wish I never offended God because I fear hell but I am glad I have child as a result of my actions.”

or

“I wish I never offended God because I fear hell but I am glad I don’t have to fear a pregnancy any more.”

Yes! This is my question! Do you have to unwish the sin or not? Because if you do, I’m in big trouble. There are sins I have committed that I for the life of me cannot bring myself to see why the Church considers them to be “mortal”, but that in deference to the CC, I have confessed and ceased committing. Does this mean I wish they had never happened in the first place? Not really. A lot of those actions have brought me to where I am today as a person.

I was under the impression that contrition was a matter of the WILL to turn back to God and sin no more, not a matter of emotions or WISHING that one had acted differently. If that’s the case, I might as well just give up, because I cannot FORCE myself to have those feelings, especially in cases where I actually do not understand why the CC teaches as they do, but am trying to obey nonetheless.

Am I sorry for offending God? Of course, but that is not the same thing as wishing one had never committed the action in the first place.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes! This is my question! Do you have to unwish the sin or not? Because if you do, I’m in big trouble. There are sins I have committed that I for the life of me cannot bring myself to see why the Church considers them to be “mortal”, but that in deference to the CC, I have confessed and ceased committing. Does this mean I wish they had never happened in the first place? Not really. A lot of those actions have brought me to where I am today as a person.

I was under the impression that contrition was a matter of the WILL to turn back to God and sin no more, not a matter of emotions or WISHING that one had acted differently. If that’s the case, I might as well just give up, because I cannot FORCE myself to have those feelings, especially in cases where I actually do not understand why the CC teaches as they do, but am trying to obey nonetheless.

Am I sorry for offending God? Of course, but that is not the same thing as wishing one had never committed the action in the first place.

Again…feelings are not under our complete control…one does not have to have some particular “feeling” per se for contrition (though such is very good…)…but one does need to as the CCC puts it detest the sin…which is a choice. Something one can make in the will. One can will that one had not committed that mortal sin…

Now this is different from borrowing the Tardis and hopping in and going back in time (interject Tardis sound here…) and go into the past and change what happened…and thus change “who you have become” or what has happened since… per se due to the sins.

On the first page of the play the Satin Slipper by Paul Claudel is written:

God writes straight with crooked lines

(Portuguese Proverb)

Even sins

(St. Augustine)

Many things in ones life …yes to end up shaping somewhat who we are…God allows them and is able to bring good out of our great evils…

One rejects the evil…but accepts that God has brought good out of it…for example say a woman sinned seriously …going after a married man…but in doing this…later meets his brother…a good and virtuous man with whom she falls in love…through whom she encounters Christ and returns to the Catholic Church which she left as a teen… and She marries that particular man. If she had not gone after that man…she would not have met her future husband …and more over she would not (at least at that point…) have returned to Christ and the Church.

Now she will repent of the sin…of all the sin…she will detest it…want that she had not sinned…etc…but of course she will happily praise God for all the good brought even out of her sin by his grace.

One is not given a time machine and made to go back and change the past so that the present is actually changed…but one does detest the sins…etc

These sins that we commit… are against our God…who loves us… even to the point of the Son of God becoming man and allowing man to scourge him…and crown him with thorns and nail his hands and his feet to a cross…there to die…for these sins…

Hope that helps some…

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I am confused as to the difference between detesting the sin and wishing that one had never committed the sin. Do I think for example that ABC is a mortal sin? No. I practiced it for years and never thought so. But the CC teaches that it IS. So, I have stopped using ABC and confessed it and no longer intend to use it. Do I wish that I had never used it? Of course not! If I hadn’t, I would have 10 kids. Isn’t it enough to confess it, be resolved not to use it in the future and to be sorry if the use of it actually offended God? If I had not used ABC, my life would be a living Hell right now. How can I honestly wish I had never taken ABC? I can’t. I would be lying to myself and to God if I said otherwise.

 

[Cristiano]

I am confused as to the difference between detesting the sin and wishing that one had never committed the sin. Do I think for example that ABC is a mortal sin? No. I practiced it for years and never thought so. But the CC teaches that it IS. So, I have stopped using ABC and confessed it and no longer intend to use it. Do I wish that I had never used it? Of course not! If I hadn’t, I would have 10 kids. Isn’t it enough to confess it, be resolved not to use it in the future and to be sorry if the use of it actually offended God? If I had not used ABC, my life would be a living Hell right now. How can I honestly wish I had never taken ABC? I can’t. I would be lying to myself and to God if I said otherwise.

First of all you do not know what would have happened if you did not use ABC for 10 years. How can you state that your life would have been a living hell? To do that, you must make a complete set of pessimistic assumptions and that implies lack of trust in God. What about if you murdered someone in the past, wouldn’t you wish you to undo it?

I am not scolding you for how you feel about your past use of ABC. I just want you to understand that things might have been quite different but not necessarily bad. I am not saying that you must wish for all the possible negative outcomes that could have happened, because that would go against being a Christian. Just keep trusting in God and do not dwell too much in your past, you have changed and that is what it really matters.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

I am confused as to the difference between detesting the sin and wishing that one had never committed the sin. Do I think for example that ABC is a mortal sin? No. I practiced it for years and never thought so. But the CC teaches that it IS. So, I have stopped using ABC and confessed it and no longer intend to use it. Do I wish that I had never used it? Of course not! If I hadn’t, I would have 10 kids. Isn’t it enough to confess it, be resolved not to use it in the future and to be sorry if the use of it actually offended God? If I had not used ABC, my life would be a living Hell right now. How can I honestly wish I had never taken ABC? I can’t. I would be lying to myself and to God if I said otherwise.

It reminds me of the prodigal son. The son only repents after all of the fun has been had and then only because he is hungry and needs a place to stay but his father still takes him back.

 

[Bookcat]

I am confused as to the difference between detesting the sin and wishing that one had never committed the sin. Do I think for example that ABC is a mortal sin? No. I practiced it for years and never thought so. But the CC teaches that it IS. So, I have stopped using ABC and confessed it and no longer intend to use it. Do I wish that I had never used it? Of course not! If I hadn’t, I would have 10 kids. Isn’t it enough to confess it, be resolved not to use it in the future and to be sorry if the use of it actually offended God? If I had not used ABC, my life would be a living Hell right now. How can I honestly wish I had never taken ABC? I can’t. I would be lying to myself and to God if I said otherwise.

There is no “if” here…the use of Contraception is a grave matter before God. A mortal sin objectively.

The Teaching regarding contraception is infallible.

(and some forms are worse than others…they are abortifacents…)

One is to accept that contraception is a mortal sin…and to confess such…which includes the various aspects of contrition.

(of course it can happen that a person did not know such was a mortal sin…that can mean it was not subjectively a mortal sin in culpibility)

Detesting sin involves the wanting to have not done it…

I am going to give a more broad overview here now:

Lets say a husband and wife use Contraception…

They can repent and detest the sin of contraception and if they had a serious reason to avoid via nfp…then one can wish one had done that instead…or if they did not then they can repent and want for it to not have been used…but they do not have to then wish that x number of children actually came along…and they thus would not be able to care for them for some reason (pregnancy by the way of course only happens a certain points…it is not like one will for sure get pregnant…though of course one does know as you noted above that new life is a good thing per se)

Ok Now lets look at a person who was using contraception in sinful relations outside of marriage…

So yes it is a mortal sin…and yes one must reject past use of contraception for it is a mortal sin. But if this is regarding extra-marital sins… this does not mean one has to think in “little parts” (if this than that etc)…one detests all his mortal sins together…and some would not be committed if the others were not chosen as a way of acting…so one does not have to look backwards in a step by step …piece by piece way. And one does not have to want to have gotten pregnant etc…does not have to wish one had had relations without the contraception…one wants none of it to have happened…that one had not sinned …

If I robbed a bank and in the process I broke a very expensive survalance camera so I would not get caught …and then later repent and confess the whole thing…I must confess and detest the whole sin…which involves too the breaking of the camera (and yes I need to confess that too)…but this does not mean that I have to wish “I had not broken it and had been caught”…but I do detest all my mortal sins…and thus the whole bank robbery in all its parts…but not stop bit by bit…I detest the that I ever robbed a bank…including the accompanying act of breaking the camera…but I do not have to sit there and single it out and say “I wish I never broke the camera and thus got caught”…for by wanting to not have robbed the bank…that precludes also not having broken the camera…for if I did not rob the bank I would not have broken the camera. But of course I still need to be against “expensive camera breaking” I can not say…that is not a mortal sin or that such is good etc…and I still do want to have not broken the camera …

So can I honestly want to have not broken the camera? Yes…for I honestly want to have not committed any mortal sins…I detest all my mortal sins. I wish they never happened (which does not again mean I wish I got caught and am in Prison for 30 years right now)

One does not have to say I think that “I wish had not used contraception and that I thus I wish have now x many children from those sinful acts” …but one is to want to have not used contraception at all and not have had sinful relations at all…that one had instead lived a completely chaste life…

I may not have helped much here…it is a bit difficult to put exactly into words…and I may not be completely right in the way I am expressing things…others can correct it …and ones confessor can help…but bottom line…yes one is to detest ones sins…

Perhaps also read my previous post again.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I quit. Part of me is seriously thinking of no longer being a Catholic at this point because no matter what I do, or how often I confess, it always turns out that there is some OTHER greater requirement for forgiveness or absolution. I can’t do it. I met my husband when I was 16. Getting married was NOT an option. So, being young and in love, we had pre-marital sex and used contraception for 12 years before we finally got married. I love the way my life has turned out. I love the way we got married, our wedding, our beautiful child, etc. We would NOT still be together had we not gotten serious at a young age because if I am honest with myself and I had been that chaste back then, I would have broken up with him immediately when things started to get serious and that would have been it. No husband, no baby, no 17 awesome years together. You cannot separate the sin from its consequences, good or bad. So yes, I’m glad for the most part that our relationship took the course that it did and I think God had a lot to do with that.

I’m tired of my religion making me feel like **** for things I did 5 years ago and more, for making me feel like I’m not forgiven even though I have amended my ways and am trying so hard to do the right thing and been to confession 4 times in 7 months, which is more than I’ve been in the last 25 years. I’m tired of feeling that the more I learn about my religion, the weaker my faith gets, the more paranoid and frustrated and hopeless I become. I used to have really strong faith, really feel God’s love for me, and now I just feel bogged down in all this legalistic boloney and feel further from God than ever, even though, technically speaking, I am a better Christian now than I have ever been.

I cannot MAKE myself feel this remorse for my past. I have had a great past, with lots of good times and it has led me here, which is a pretty good place.

Maybe it’s time to try a different church for awhile because this is not good for my faith. If I’m lucky, when I finally drop dead I will have this “perfect contrition” and so be forgiven, but until then, I’m tired of feeling worse the harder I try and I’m tired of losing faith in God’s mercy and love. Maybe time for a change.

 

[Bookcat]

I quit. Part of me is seriously thinking of no longer being a Catholic at this point because no matter what I do, or how often I confess, it always turns out that there is some OTHER greater requirement for forgiveness or absolution. I can’t do it. I met my husband when I was 16. Getting married was NOT an option. So, being young and in love, we had pre-marital sex and used contraception for 12 years before we finally got married. I love the way my life has turned out. I love the way we got married, our wedding, our beautiful child, etc. We would NOT still be together had we not gotten serious at a young age because if I am honest with myself and I had been that chaste back then, I would have broken up with him immediately when things started to get serious and that would have been it. No husband, no baby, no 17 awesome years together. You cannot separate the sin from its consequences, good or bad. So yes, I’m glad for the most part that our relationship took the course that it did and I think God had a lot to do with that.

I’m tired of my religion making me feel like **** for things I did 5 years ago and more, for making me feel like I’m not forgiven even though I have amended my ways and am trying so hard to do the right thing and been to confession 4 times in 7 months. I’m tired of feeling that the more I learn about my religion, the weaker my faith gets, the more paranoid and frustrated and hopeless I become. I used to have really strong faith, really feel God’s love for me, and now I just feel bogged down in all this legalistic boloney and feel further from God than ever, even though, technically speaking, I am a better Christian now than I have ever been.

I cannot MAKE myself feel this remorse for my past. I have had a great past, with lots of good times and it has led me here, which is a pretty good place.

Maybe it’s time to try a different church for awhile because this is not good for my faith.

“Trying another” would not be good for ones faith…

Listen…

You need to work things out in person with a good Priest…make an appointment …not over some internet forum where things can get misunderstood or missed…etc. Or not well explained…(and feelings again are not necessarily needed…)

I think also you may have missed some of my posts above…(with the Claudel quote and explaination…God can write straight with crooked lines…even sins…)

Yes we need to be contrite for our sins…but perhaps you are investing certain things with meanings that are not intended…this is best worked out face to face…in a “human Priest-Christian conversation” (not a forum on the internet)…so one can understand what the Church means…and what she does not…one can see faces…in a conversation things can be better expressed…questions asked better etc…

A bit more “personal” than a forum…

In Jesus Christ and thus in his Church is true life …it is good news…

yes this involves repentance …such is the first part of “Repent…and believe the good news”…

(but one needs to understand what this means…which is where a sit down conversation can help…with a knowlegable Priest)

 

[Pug]

Which one is it then? I wasn’t aware you had to “feel” anything to be contrite.

Do you have to un-wish your sin in order to receive forgiveness or don’t you?

Making an act of the will I can understand, but how can you possible make yourself feel “I wish I hadn’t done that”. How can you ever be forgiven if you love the results of your sin? You might feel, “I wish I never offended God because I fear hell but I am glad I have child as a result of my actions.”

or

“I wish I never offended God because I fear hell but I am glad I don’t have to fear a pregnancy any more.”

I’d not noticed that Grisez used the word wish in the cut I gave from his textbook. For me, that word is usually an emotional word, so I was saying you don’t have to wish, as control your emotions, so they are in line with your will. But I think he is using the word wish in a different manner than emotions. I suspect (but I’m not him, so who knows) he means by wishing you hadn’t done it is that you change your mind about that choice you made, as opposed to “I’d do it *all *again in a heartbeat”. I think he means you’ve had some kind of a change of heart about that choice. Not your whole heart or understanding, but something.

I hesitate to use someone’s actual personal situation, so I’ll avoid Thoughtfulone’s example of contraception and instead go with in-vitro. A couple could say they wouldn’t do it again if they went back in time, on account of or meaning they have changed their mind and now would follow Church teaching even if they haven’t a clue why it is wrong, but they would never, ever unwish their beautiful child. I don’t think it is meant to be posed as a choice between the *known *child (or *known *outcome) and obedience. It is more like in a fresh situation of the same dimensions as before, but with completely different/unknown outcomes compared with obedience. But that is just me. I don’t know for sure. He (Grisez) knows better than me.

By the way, I don’t think a person who finds themselves infertile for whatever reason is obliged to be unhappy about that state of affairs. A couple might really appreciate the lack of hassle in their lives. Like after a hysterectomy, yeah! No more wife sick each month for 2 days out of 28!

 

[Pug]

I quit. Part of me is seriously thinking of no longer being a Catholic at this point because no matter what I do, or how often I confess, it always turns out that there is some OTHER greater requirement for forgiveness or absolution. I can’t do it. I met my husband when I was 16. Getting married was NOT an option. So, being young and in love, we had pre-marital sex and used contraception for 12 years before we finally got married. I love the way my life has turned out. I love the way we got married, our wedding, our beautiful child, etc. We would NOT still be together had we not gotten serious at a young age because if I am honest with myself and I had been that chaste back then, I would have broken up with him immediately when things started to get serious and that would have been it. No husband, no baby, no 17 awesome years together. You cannot separate the sin from its consequences, good or bad. So yes, I’m glad for the most part that our relationship took the course that it did and I think God had a lot to do with that.

I’m tired of my religion making me feel like **** for things I did 5 years ago and more, for making me feel like I’m not forgiven even though I have amended my ways and am trying so hard to do the right thing and been to confession 4 times in 7 months, which is more than I’ve been in the last 25 years. I’m tired of feeling that the more I learn about my religion, the weaker my faith gets, the more paranoid and frustrated and hopeless I become. I used to have really strong faith, really feel God’s love for me, and now I just feel bogged down in all this legalistic boloney and feel further from God than ever, even though, technically speaking, I am a better Christian now than I have ever been.

I cannot MAKE myself feel this remorse for my past. I have had a great past, with lots of good times and it has led me here, which is a pretty good place.

Maybe it’s time to try a different church for awhile because this is not good for my faith. If I’m lucky, when I finally drop dead I will have this “perfect contrition” and so be forgiven, but until then, I’m tired of feeling worse the harder I try and I’m tired of losing faith in God’s mercy and love. Maybe time for a change.

You need regret nothing about your husband, family, friends, happy wedding memories, all these good things you mention. :hug1:That you appreciate the wonderful way God has worked in your life is great!

Trust Him. He will help still!

Also, it really might help to talk with a priest. You are not required to be tortured in conscience to be Catholic. That you do keep feeling unforgiven even though you are going to confession says to me a priest might be able to help you. Some of them are really good!