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clem456
Guest
Oh you have got to be kidding. Emotions are a GIFT, and like any other gift need to be used the correct away according to God’s purpose, not kept in a bottle. Using them in worship is valid.
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TrueLight
Guest
Well, all I can say is that this is very familiar to me. The worship and the songs. And the falling out.
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manualman
Guest
Nah, that’s not catholicism, that’s Vulcanism. You’ve watched too much Star Trek.
In seriousness, you are correct to point out that enthusiasm cannot be the basis for our faith. But such forms of praise and expression do make for some nice spice in life. I’d meet you as far as agreeing that “Enthusiasm” by Msgr Knox should be required reading for anybody involved in the Charismatic Movement. But I won’t go so far as to condemn enthusiastic expressions of faith and praise altogether. Just excessive reliance on them.
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maryjk
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TrueLight
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Ha ha. I have to admit I have seen some people take it there.Nah, that’s not catholicism, that’s Vulcanism. You’ve watched too much Star Trek.
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1ke
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I don’t know how old that thread is. FU does offer an EF mass on campus, in their chapel:
franciscan.edu/chapelministries/schedule/
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wasserfall
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wasserfall
Guest
I did not say that Catholics may not feel or show emotion.
However, Catholic worship does not seek primarily to provoke an emotional response, but that is the primary goal of “charismatic” services like the one in the video.
Anytime emotion rules reason, that person is in a disordered state.
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TrueLight
Guest
Well, I met a friend I hadn’t seen in over a month at Mass at the Church he has been attending lately.
I came in a few minutes late. When I walked in the church, I saw where he was sitting so I went and sat next to him.
I offered a smile and he offered me a stoic, barely-perceptible nod of the head.
Really? It would have been disrespectful to smile or even mouth hello?
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curlycool89
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Well, I’ll predict right now that this thread will get moved or closed since this has nothing to do with the Traditional Catholicism sub-forum.
There’s only 1 thing I see as problematic, and that was the priest leading the p&w and stuff from behind the monstrance (Blessed Sacrament) during adoration. That is distracting and sends the wrong message as to who’s the centre of attention at that time.
CCO does similar events at Rise Up each year, a Holy Hour with Adoration, praise and worship (With a worship band far to the side, opposite side of the stage width-wise. The songs chosen are usually on the new side though from artists like Hillsong and Chris Tomlin/Passion Conferences and of course Matt Maher) and confession (and plenty of time given for silent reflection too). It’s usually the best night of the conference.
Frankly speaking, reason is only enough to get you to go through the motions. Using your emotions in your worship of God is to open yourself up fully and totally to God, it is to give yourself up to God. I can tell you from personal experience, reason only kept me from doing that.
Because Protestants would definitley use a San Damiano Cross, right?
There’s only 1 thing I see as problematic, and that was the priest leading the p&w and stuff from behind the monstrance (Blessed Sacrament) during adoration. That is distracting and sends the wrong message as to who’s the centre of attention at that time.
CCO does similar events at Rise Up each year, a Holy Hour with Adoration, praise and worship (With a worship band far to the side, opposite side of the stage width-wise. The songs chosen are usually on the new side though from artists like Hillsong and Chris Tomlin/Passion Conferences and of course Matt Maher) and confession (and plenty of time given for silent reflection too). It’s usually the best night of the conference.
Complete silence with capital punishment for making noise.Maybe I missed something, but it seemed like everyone was kneeling. And on a hard floor. It seemed like it was Exposition, when there is normally a song or prayer recited.
What were you looking for?
Do you only worship God with your reason? Are we not called to love God with all our hearts, all our souls, all our minds, and all our strengths (this quote was previously in my signature), and is love not an emotion? Are we not called to be child-like with our Lord and Saviour?
Frankly speaking, reason is only enough to get you to go through the motions. Using your emotions in your worship of God is to open yourself up fully and totally to God, it is to give yourself up to God. I can tell you from personal experience, reason only kept me from doing that.
Source? Or alternatively we’ll just relegate this to your opinion that the rest of us are free to disagree with.
For this one I will demand that you produce an authoritative source to back this up. Saying that something is disordered is a serious charge and requires justification.
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Oneofthewomen
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All of this is awesome!!
What I have highlighted- I AGREE 100%!
“Complete surrender” is ANYTHING but logical
and if you really think about it-
it is the ultimate emotion- FAITH!!
You will make a fine priest someday, God willing!
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thewanderer
Guest
I agree with you that if one’s emotions are actually ruling one’s reason then they are in a disordered state. (For those of you who don’t know, this is a necessary conclusion from the most basic principles of Thomistic philosophy). However, I would like to point out that feeling stron emotions does not equate to having ones emotions or passions rule ones reason. If said emotions are in line with the dictates of reason and ones reason sees that they are good and appropriate for a certain occasion then there is nothing wrong with having an intense emotional experience. If you want to use this principle as a charge against charismatics you must show that the charismatic movement is in fact ordered towards the disordered state of emotions ruling reason rather than the perfectly acceptable and good state of experiencing emotions in line with reason.
Also, I second the request for evidence that the primary goal of charismatic worship is to evoke emotion, let alone disordered emotion. As I understand it the primary end is worship of God. It is done through a particular mode, through being in touch with ones emotions, but the end of the worship is not to evoke emotion. It is an important distinction to make.
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thewanderer
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Sorry, its too late to edit.
I just realized that I should add for those who are unaware, the entire theology of St. Thomas is based on his philosophy and comes highly recomended by the Church. So, while I don’t have an exact quote for you from an official Church document, the Church’s high endorsement of St. Thomas’ theology should be sufficient reason to seriously consider the idea that emotions ruling reason is a disordered state. Don’t worry, I’m well aware that not everything St. Thomas said or wrote is correct, but the fact that this is a necessary conclusions from his founding principles gives it **a lot **more weight than some abstract conclusion he comes to much further down the line of reasoning (such as his take on the immaculate conception).
I just realized that I should add for those who are unaware, the entire theology of St. Thomas is based on his philosophy and comes highly recomended by the Church. So, while I don’t have an exact quote for you from an official Church document, the Church’s high endorsement of St. Thomas’ theology should be sufficient reason to seriously consider the idea that emotions ruling reason is a disordered state. Don’t worry, I’m well aware that not everything St. Thomas said or wrote is correct, but the fact that this is a necessary conclusions from his founding principles gives it **a lot **more weight than some abstract conclusion he comes to much further down the line of reasoning (such as his take on the immaculate conception).
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Rich_C
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All of this is awesome!!
What I have highlighted- I AGREE 100%!
“Complete surrender” is ANYTHING but logical
and if you really think about it-
it is the ultimate emotion- FAITH!!
You will make a fine priest someday, God willing!
Faith isn’t an emotion. Neither is love at its heart. Both produce emotions at times but at other times they don’t.
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Rich_C
Guest
Actually, it’s not. Ask Mother Theresa who loved God for decades by consistently choosing self-sacrifice without a fuzzy feeling. Thankfully, God does give most of us loving emotions toward Him at times, and allows us to feel His love through consolations at other times.
I’m willing to give these charismatics the benefit of the doubt, i.e. that their they are not just chasing a kind of emotional high. I hope as you go through seminary you will consider giving trads the benefit of the doubt that they are actively participating at Mass even though they often appear to be doing something else.
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TS_Aquinas
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Don’t have your quote handy but have something better…Sorry, its too late to edit.
I just realized that I should add for those who are unaware, the entire theology of St. Thomas is based on his philosophy and comes highly recomended by the Church. So, while I don’t have an exact quote for you from an official Church document, the Church’s high endorsement of St. Thomas’ theology should be sufficient reason to seriously consider the idea that emotions ruling reason is a disordered state. Don’t worry, I’m well aware that not everything St. Thomas said or wrote is correct, but the fact that this is a necessary conclusions from his founding principles gives it **a lot **more weight than some abstract conclusion he comes to much further down the line of reasoning (such as his take on the immaculate conception).
Decree of Approval of some theses contained in the Doctrine of St. Thomas Aquinas and proposed to the Teachers of Philosophy
After our most Holy Father Pius X ordered in the Motu Proprio Doctoris Angelici, on June 29, 1914, that in all schools of philosophy the principles and main teachings of Thomas Aquinas be held, some teachers from various institutions proposed some theses for this Sacred Congregation to examine, which theses they had been accustomed to teach and defend as being those of the Holy Teacher [St.Thomas], especially in metaphysics.
This Sacred Congregation, having duly examined the aforementioned theses and having presented them to the Holy Father, by the mandate of His Holiness, declares that they clearly contain the principles and more important thoughts of the holy Doctor [St. Thomas].
XXI.
Intellectum sequitur, non praecedit, voluntas, quae necessario appetit id quod sibi praesentatur tamquam bonum ex omni parte explens appetitum, sed inter plura bona, quae iudicio mutabili appetenda proponuntur, libere eligit. Sequitur proinde electio iudicium practicum ultimum; at quod sit ultimum, voluntas efficit.
The will follows the intellect. The will does not precede the intellect. The will necessarily desires that which is presented to it as a good that in every way can satisfy desire, but among the many goods that are proposed to it as desirable by a judgement that is subject to change, the will freely chooses. Thus, a choice follows the last practical judgement, and the will makes that judgement into the last one.
May not state ‘emotion’ per se but emotions are acts of the will either by defective intellect when one does not desire the highest good of which is desired or functional intellect when one executes proper judgment according to goodness of which is desired. If one places emotion before intellect, they violate the principles of the Church who states by this Congregation and previous Doctors of the Church that will follows the intellect. In summary to the subject: if one simply wishes to worship a certain way, as this youtube video has shown, and does not place wisdom above whim and intellect above will, one would act contrary to the principles of goodness and reason. For in goodness we objectively observe variation of greater and lesser and with reason the assent to what is greater. Ergo, worship is measurable in form and whatever lacks in form is defective of its actuality.
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Indyann
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I have watched the video 4 times now. I see nothing wrong with it except a couple of the ladies should stick to dark colored pants.
I, too am more inhibited, though, I wish I weren’t. So for us introverts, I will offer this video. And yes, it makes me tear up:sad_yes: Sad, but in a joyful way.
Guess I 'm not 100% in control of my emotions. So shoot me!
Oh and if you pray twice by singing, I bet you pray 4 times by clapping and dancing.!
youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4tEFPuhYI&feature=related
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Dan_Daly
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FSU has a lot of good things going on. They also have a lot of problems. That’s not suprising since FSU is made of people, and all of us have lots problems.
Chief positives I’ve seen from FSU:
As I said, I do see real positives about the place, and it has had a positive influence on my own life and faith. It’s much better than most “catholic” universities in the US, but that is more of a condemnation of the others than praise for FSU. I would be very hestitant to send my children there.
Pax
Chief positives I’ve seen from FSU:
- a sincere enthusiasm for the Faith
- great devotion to the Blessed Sacrament
- a very active group of students who pray for an end to abortion.
- very mixed up theology. I know people with advanced degrees in theology from there that are lacking in knowing basics of the faith.
-an over focus on emotion at the expense of reason.
As I said, I do see real positives about the place, and it has had a positive influence on my own life and faith. It’s much better than most “catholic” universities in the US, but that is more of a condemnation of the others than praise for FSU. I would be very hestitant to send my children there.
Pax
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Rich_C
Guest
As an aside, I think anyone interested in this thread may like to read the following blog post: patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/
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Melchior_1
Guest
You may want to link directly to the blog post, you posted the link to the main page.
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