Still confused about Mary

[sandmountainsli]

I work with a pastor. He carries his Bible with him everywhere. The stain is rubbing off the leather cover from where he holds it so much. In fact right now he is in his office with his head in his hands and his nose buried in his Bible. I guess he could be giving the impression that he worships the Bible, huh?

Depends…
Does he ever say: " Oh Holy Bible, Scripture of God, blessed be thy covers and thy invinsible spine! I praise thy ink and ask that thy holy pages be with me at the hour of my demise."
If so then he probably DOES
WP

 

[RCCDefender]

Depends…
Does he ever say: " Oh Holy Bible, Scripture of God, blessed be thy covers and thy invinsible spine! I praise thy ink and ask that thy holy pages be with me at the hour of my demise."
If so then he probably DOES
WP

Probably in not so many words!

 

[sandmountainsli]

Probably in not so many words!

We shall just disagree on this one.
I don’t see the twain meeting. Now whattabout that Islam?
WP

 

[NotWorthy]

Depends…
Does he ever say: " Oh Holy Bible, Scripture of God, blessed be thy covers and thy invinsible spine! I praise thy ink and ask that thy holy pages be with me at the hour of my demise."
If so then he probably DOES
WP

No, but when we say the Hail Mary, we are simply:

a) quoting Scripture - “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with the. Blessed art though among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus.”
b) asking someone to pray for us (just like you may ask a friend) - “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.”

 

[sandmountainsli]

No, but when we say the Hail Mary, we are simply:

a) quoting Scripture - “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with the. Blessed art though among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus.”
b) asking someone to pray for us (just like you may ask a friend) - “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.”

But when you say the Our Father there is and can be no confusion.
Even those mostly ignorant of Christianity itself know to whom you are speaking and why.
WP

 

[RCCDefender]

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

“Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed.” Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected… Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin’s body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest.” Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18 (A.D. 378).

“Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).

Source

 

[NotWorthy]

But when you say the Our Father there is and can be no confusion.
Even those mostly ignorant of Christianity itself know to whom you are speaking and why.
WP

I’m not worried so much about what you think I am praying to, as to doing the Will of the Father. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to lead anyone down the wrong path, but to judge Catholics by our prayers and petitions to Mary is to overlook the Worship of the Lord in the Mass.

Look at a vast majority of converts to the Catholic Church - you’ll find
a) they were initially turned off by (or at least leary of) all the Mariolotry in the Church. AND
b) they are devoted to Mary, because they know she draws us closer to Christ.

There is a reason for this, and it is not brain-washing.

 

[NotWorthy]

But when you say the Our Father there is and can be no confusion.
Even those mostly ignorant of Christianity itself know to whom you are speaking and why.
WP

2nd point - What is wrong with the Hail Mary?
Is it wrong to repeat something that is Scriptural?
Is it wrong to ask someone else to pray for us? Aren’t the prayers of a righteous man powerful indeed?

 

[Milliardo]

The analogy that I can think of whenever this question of why we should ask Mary to help us bring us closer to Christ is the analogy of having relatives; now, if we go to someone’s house, and he has his aunt, uncle, etc. there as well, wouldn’t it be logical to talk to his relatives as well in order to know the person better? Of course, I can talk to the person himself to know about him, but it gives you a more complete perspective if you talk to his relations as well and get to know him from other people’s point–people who are close to him and love him. That’s how I see why we ask Mary to bring us closer to Christ.

 

[mercygate]

But when you say the Our Father there is and can be no confusion.
Even those mostly ignorant of Christianity itself know to whom you are speaking and why.
WP

In the early Church, non-Christians thought they were cannibals. The tone of your observation indicates that Catholics might do well not to do things that confuse others. If the early Christians had modified their worship in order not to confuse the pagans about cannibalism, where would that have taken them?

 

[sandmountainsli]

Aren’t the prayers of a righteous man powerful indeed?

They are indeed, however I believe Mary and the other Sainted Dead of the church are well beyond their days of prayer.
They are with our Lord in Heaven and could care less what you, I and anyone else on earth are going thru as they do not know we exist.
That is why we must direct our prayers to the one who does know and care about our situation, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
WP

 

[LilyM]

sandmountainsli:

They are indeed, however I believe Mary and the other Sainted Dead of the church are well beyond their days of prayer.
They are with our Lord in Heaven and could care less what you, I and anyone else on earth are going thru as they do not know we exist.
That is why we must direct our prayers to the one who does know and care about our situation, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
WP

If they know, love and care about God then believe you me, they know, love, and care about us as He does. St Paul says that we shall BE like him for we shall see him as he is. We will resemble him - in all his characteristics, including his concern for and doing of good for His children.

Do you really think God just wants a bunch of deaf, dumb, blind, passive and impotent adorers? Has any indication ever been given that this is what He wants?

Can’t think of anything more awful or misguided.

 

[sandmountainsli]

If they know, love and care about God then believe you me, they know, love, and care about us as He does.

Do you really think God just wants a bunch of deaf, dumb, blind, passive and impotent adorers? Has any indication ever been given that this is what He wants?

Can’t think of anything more awful or misguided.

Who said anything along those lines? I think it is very from the scriptures that God is a jealous God and DOES want our worship.
To God Alone Be The Glory In Jesus Name.
WP

 

[LilyM]

Yes he wants worshippers - but ALSO heirs and co-heirs, as St Paul calls us! Heirs and co-heirs don’t just sit on their butts and do nothing. They have powers and responsibilities of their own.

Otherwise he wouldn’t give us what humble share we already have in his powers (creation of children, for example? dominion over the animals for example?)

 

[fmagill]

Cheddar,

Thank you for starting this thread and thank you to those who have responded with some great resources. I, too, am struggling with the Mary thing. Had I lived prior to the two proclaimed dogmas of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception, I might be Catholic now. I don’t understand why these have to be required beliefs now when before they had no bearing on one’s salvation. I don’t understand why the Assumption of Mary is a day of obligation, but the Ascension of Jesus can be celebrated according to the preference of the diocese on either the appropriate Thursday or the Sunday after. Shouldn’t such an important event in our understanding of Christ be a holy day of obligation more so than an event in Mary’s life? To me, this draws attention AWAY from Jesus. I am not saying that Marian devotion is wrong, but I think you can see how it can be perceived by other Christians as worship. Again, thanks to those who posted with some great resources. I will definitely be doing my research into those.

Have you read the Vatican’s documents in which the dogmas of the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception were announced and explained? I have not, so I can’t tell you what they say, but I’m just suggesting that might be a good place to get a better understanding of why the Church believes they are so important. Good luck in your research.

 

[fmagill]

They are indeed, however I believe Mary and the other Sainted Dead of the church are well beyond their days of prayer.
They are with our Lord in Heaven and could care less what you, I and anyone else on earth are going thru as they do not know we exist.
That is why we must direct our prayers to the one who does know and care about our situation, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
WP

Some interesting theology there–the souls in Heaven don’t know we exist? Care to share with us the basis for your belief? Even in my Presbyterian childhood I never heard that–my parents always told me our departed relatives were “watching over us” from God’s Kingdom.

By the way, your “Scotwatch” forums look fascinating. I have a wee dram or two of Scots blood myself, though some in my family have questioned my lineage since I became Catholic.

 

[sandmountainsli]

Some interesting theology there–the souls in Heaven don’t know we exist? Care to share with us the basis for your belief? Even in my Presbyterian childhood I never heard that–my parents always told me our departed relatives were “watching over us” from God’s Kingdom.

By the way, your “Scotwatch” forums look fascinating. I have a wee dram or two of Scots blood myself, though some in my family have questioned my lineage since I became Catholic.

Thank you. ScotWatch was two years in the works and formally a Yahoo! Group, we have recently re-started from scratch in a messageboard format and so far so good
Yeah, my folks told me about people in heaven looking down on us also (most folks in Alabama believe that way) but I believe that scripture holds that once the earthly life is done you are done with the earthly life, you need not worry about your living relatives or anyone else as you are passed to the other side.
WP

 

[LilyM]

Thank you. ScotWatch was two years in the works and formally a Yahoo! Group, we have recently re-started from scratch in a messageboard format and so far so good
Yeah, my folks told me about people in heaven looking down on us also (most folks in Alabama believe that way) but I believe that scripture holds that once the earthly life is done you are done with the earthly life, you need not worry about your living relatives or anyone else as you are passed to the other side.
WP

Whereabouts in scripture do you find this? (And don’t say Saul and the Witch of Endor for heaven’s sake - that was before Christ’s death opened heaven and redeemed us)

 

[sandmountainsli]

Whereabouts in scripture do you find this? (And don’t say Saul and the Witch of Endor for heaven’s sake - that was before Christ’s death opened heaven and redeemed us)

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:6)

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7
For man goes to his eternal home,
And the mourners go about the streets.

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought those in heaven are cheering the return of the lost sheep.

I thought we had a cloud of witnesses cheering us on.

I thought there are prayers offfered up as incense, like those described in Revelation.

Or it could be just me.