Still Seek Answer: Free Will

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Greg_McPherran

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Hello,

Why is it that some choose God and others don’t? It seems random to me. For example, consider a group of 1000 humans. Suppose half choose God and half reject him. From God’s perspective isn’t this like a random chance analogous to rolling dice?

What is this based on? Why did some choose rightly and others not? It seems random.

Thank You,
Greg
 
why did some choose rightly and some wrongly? Who knows - maybe you should ask them. In my discussion with a few people as to why they rejected God and general morality there tend to be two strands. One is the person was never really raised with religion, knows very little about what Catholicism is about, and in some sense doesn’t know much better. The second is the person who does know better but is selfish and rejects everything because they are sick of feeling guilty over some particular sin(s). why are they so selfish? I guess for the same reason that all of us are selfish from time to time, it’s just that some people are more selfish on a larger scale or in a different way than others.
 
I’m no philosopher but I like the question. I have made a few observations over that past year regarding free will.
  1. Exorcism - The Possessed
    It seems that this literature deals very directly with free will and those people who willingly give their controls over to evil. Here it seems though that some are “tested” apart from free will.
  2. Purgatory - Church Suffering
    This literature seems to exhibit examples of many who at death are given to perfect contrition. This contrition is pleasing to God and can save if free will is used to carry out the confession. This extra desire toward confession is a natural desire for God - a built in agent for salvation acting against the life-long choices against all things good. So, at the moment of death, our free will seems to be predisposed toward God.
  3. Saved - Church Militant
    Clearly there are those who are cold, lukewarm, warm, and hot. There are many here who are cold but who’s hearts are still called. Pride seems to influence the levels and ratios. Here knowledge of truth and unwillingness to act is a dangerous choice of free will. Fear of culpability and the abundance of “love” are in opposition.
  4. The Lost
    Here there is the potential for salvation or oblivion. Some of this is ignorance, others refuse to believe due to pride.
In the end, at death, I believe that the majority choose God because, in their hearts, they know the truth. They do not seem to believe that life is more abundant with God all along the way. Those who rely on mercy may get lucky, even if I live a penitent and indulgenced life – this life is too risky – salvation can be easily lost to not choose God early and with purpose.

Please pardon the simpleton’s approach,
 
Thank you for the thougthful answers:

…selfish…
…willingly give their controls over to evil…
…knowledge of truth and unwillingness to act…
…others refuse to believe due to pride…

I still seek a root answer even for the above reasons. Why? Why do some people choose the above things and others do not?

It seems random - analogous to rolling dice.

We have free will. If there is no reason why some choose holiness and others do not, then is it random? Do people ever fully know what they are doing? When Jesus was crucified He said: “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.”

My current thinking is this:

For what people choose there is either:

a root reason that makes them not responsible for their choices

or

they have complete free will and whether they choose well or not is not caused by any root reason. If something has no root cause then it is completely random.

I am just trying to comprehend how our free will is left to randomness if that’s the case. It makes no sense to me. I seek to understand.

Thank You!
 
I really don’t know. But I do know that when considering this question it is important not to fall into the heresy of Predestination.
 
When faced with the truth it can be a bitter pill to swallow. It is easier to reject God than to follow. It is hard to take up the Cross. Still, 2000 years ago there were 0 Catholics. Today there are over a billion. Add in the Protestants and you have more.
 
You: We have free will.

Yes we do have free will – it isn’t random, free will is a constant. We are given the opportunity to choose to love, know and follow God or it wouldn’t be a gift of our returning our lives to the One who made us.:gopray:

God didn’t make a bunch of robots or creatures that had to love Him because that isn’t love. Love is making the sacrifices that allow one to place another’s needs above their own. Romantic love has it’s place, but unifying and committed love is comprised of a bit of altruism and dying to one’s desire’s to please another.

You: If there is no reason why some choose holiness and others do not, then is it random? Do people ever fully know what they are doing?

The real reason that some do not choose God is that they have become their own God or they have an addiction that has become their God. Sin is real and embodied within us. Truth is real and humbly allows us to receive Him in the Eucharist to bring us closer to be whole and like Him – meek and humble of heart.

None of us ever will fully understand God, but we can understand our choices. We can develop a reasoning and understanding of our faith and the Church.

Just because the people who crucified Jesus were unaware of His divinity doesn’t mean that we will never realize His divinity. The Bible is a testimony to Jesus being the Christ.

You: If something has no root cause then it is completely random.

Not every concept has only two exclusive truths to it. We can never truly know the inner workings of another person. Heck, we try to hide that stuff from God, too. So you can’t just say either God made us to reflexively love Him or something in our nature is hardwired so that some of us will worship and the others won’t. God is infinitely good and wise and would not leave some us incapable of knowing and loving Him and thereby being damned for all eternity.

A truth that I have found for myself. When I am in a state of mortal sin – I’ve lost my connection to God – I have really lost my connection - no etherernet or radio frequency can be received because I broke my antenna off by my own doing and realizing that I was committing an act of sin.

When I have grace granted to me to absovle my sins and I am spiritually annointed with mercy and love, then I can choose to follow God more easily because there is a restored connection of my soul with my God.:love:

You are looking to reduce the most complex creature to a mathmatical equation and we just aren’t that logical – OF course God isn’t logical either – He is total obsessive love and mercy!

Pax et bonum,
Mamamull
 
Thank you for the answers.
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Benignus:
I really don’t know.
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Me neither.
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buffalo:
is easier to reject God than to follow. It is hard to take up the Cross
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Yes, but what is the root reason why some do and some don’t?
For every reason I am given why someone chooses one way and another chooses the other way, I still ask why? What is the root reason that some people choose to avoid pride, selfishness, fear of carrying their cross, etc. and others don’t. These are all reasons but they are really just part of the question. My original question included all these aspects of good vs. evil. For these reasons I ask why?

**Is our free will ultimately left to randomness, analogous to rolling dice? **

**Or **

Or can our choices always be traced to some root reason?

Thank You,
Greg
 
For free will to be meaningful, the options must be real and people must be able to convince themselves to go either way.

How it completely works, I will not know until God shows me in heaven.

I know my choice of my free will is to use it to love God, regardless of the price, and then to love my fellow man.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Yes, but what is the root reason why some do and some don’t?
For every reason I am given why someone chooses one way and another chooses the other way, I still ask why? What is the root reason that some people choose to avoid pride, selfishness, fear of carrying their cross, etc. and others don’t. These are all reasons but they are really just part of the question. My original question included all these aspects of good vs. evil. For these reasons I ask why?
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Concupiscence

**418 **As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

**2515 **Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the “spirit.” **Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.
**
**1264 **Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”
 
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Greg_McPherran:
If something has no root cause then it is completely random.
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It is my experience and that of other people that we make free choices. The burden of proof lies with the person who would deny experience and say we do not make them. This consideration might help provide peace for you with this question.

You might want to focus on sufficient cause. There is a cause for a free choice. The cause is the person who makes the choice. They see some good in the choice and decide to will it. But it is not a totally sufficient cause. It is just a cause. An insufficient cause if you will.

God himself did not have sufficient cause to create. He did not have to create us, but he did anyway, because he willed to. We have a radically cool ability to do likewise.
 
Hello, thank you Thomas,
T.A.Stobie:
I know my choice of my free will is to use it to love God, regardless of the price, and then to love my fellow man.
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**Would you be able to do this without God’s grace? **If not, then is it truly free will?

My current understanding based on Scripture is that all is God’s grace and we really don’t have free will. Saint Paul talks about ‘who am I to question my maker’. God says he will make Pharaoh’s heart hardened. Paul tells us the Jews have been made disobedient so that God can show His mercy…

It seems to me that we really have no free will and that only God’s will shall be done. I think this is what God is teaching us and is a major point of Christianity to beging with. God is teaching people not to think that they really have any control or power at all because only God’s will can truly ever be done. God is in control of all it seems to me.

God’s grace can overpower any sinner. If God chooses to withold His grace as in the case of Pharaoh, then Pharaoh was just under God’s control but thinking he was doing his own will. This is the blindness of pride. It’s all God’s doing and under His control. Our concept of free will is merely a temporal explanation for sin. In fact our use of free will is still under God’s control because all works to God’s purpose in the end.

This is a key point of sinners - they think they will get away with it when in fact the “joke” is on them and God is just using them for His purposes. Jesus in these days is now awakening us to this. Don’t even bother thinking that you can do your own will, because you can’t - in the end all will suit God’s purposes. We really have no “free” will as we think. All is God’s grace and under His control. Sin is nothing more than a lack of awareness of this fact. This is what faith is so important in order to be born again. Even dissenting priests are unknowingly suiting God’s purpose.

There is no “free” will - all is God’s will and grace. Even sin work’s to God’s purpose in the end.

That is my current understanding. Please help me to see better if I am wrong.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Hello,

Why is it that some choose God and others don’t? It seems random to me. For example, consider a group of 1000 humans. Suppose half choose God and half reject him. **From God’s perspective ** isn’t this like a random chance analogous to rolling dice?

What is this based on? Why did some choose rightly and others not? It seems random.

Thank You,
Greg
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**From God’s perspective **…

Therein lies the problem with your example - you can’t possibly view this from God’s “perspective.” If you could, you would know that each choice was made freely.

God has given us the free will to accept Him or reject Him. Each makes a determination based upon the information revealed to Him (and, as Neil Peart and Rush note, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”).

You, not knowing the decision-making process, will simply see humans entering different choices, like ants swarming around. To your eyes, from your non-omniscient perspective, the choices will appear to be random. To each individual, however, they will have made a free choice based upon the revelation given to them.
 
I think also this is what the Church is trying to teach us about true freedom. Our free will is not to do our own will but only God’s.

Christianity is an awakening and this awakening is also God’s will.
 
The Barrister:
based upon the revelation given to them.
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Yes, that’s what I am coming to. That we really have no free will in the way I have been understanding it. I welcome your thoughts on my previous additional posts after yours.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
There is no “free” will - all is God’s will and grace. Even sin work’s to God’s purpose in the end.

That is my current understanding. Please help me to see better if I am wrong.
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By taking those passages out of context - as did Calvin and Luther before you - you have reached a conclusion that is inapposite to both Catholic teaching and common sense.

Basically, you ignore the fact that Man can resist and/or reject God’s grace.

That’s worth repeating: **Man can resist and/or reject God’s grace. **

God’s grace does not make the decision for us; instead, God merely places into our being the ability to make the right decision. Should we reject God’s grace, then we may very well make the wrong decision. Either way, the decision is ours to make; ergo, free will.

Example: If you are taking a multiple choice test, and I, as the teacher, tell you “A is the correct answer,” you really ought to mark “A” as your answer. You can, however, freely reject my command and mark “B.” Your answer is clearly wrong, but just as clearly chosen of your free will. Consequently, if you mark “A” your answer is clearly correct, and is also just as clearly a product of your free will.

In reaching the conclusion you did, you have managed to explain away the purpose behind your own existence. You seem to know (implicitly, if not explicitly) that your conclusion is untenable, but have managed to convince yourself otherwise. Don’t fall into the Calvinist camp.
 
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buffalo:
Concupiscence

**418 **As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).
Click to expand...
How can we be responsible for being born into original sin? Again, I think it’s all God’s will and grace. All is under God’s control. God could even have prevented Satan from tempting Adam and Eve if He wanted to - correct?

**All is under God’s control. Our awakening to this is what God seeks. Our awakening itself is God’s will. If we think we have a will apart from God’s the “joke” is on the sinner. **

I welcome being shown a better understanding.

Thank You,
Greg
 
Thank You Barrister,

The Barrister said:
**Man can resist and/or reject God’s grace. **
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In good humor I say:

Nonsense. God can overpower any man anytime.

Show me where I am wrong.

Greg
 
Greg_McPherran said:
**Would you be able to do this without God’s grace? **If not, then is it truly free will?
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Some of God’s graces for us require that we choose them. He grants us all enough grace so that we can choose him and ask for more. We can also choose to reject him and deny the other graces.

Through my free will, in the past, I have chosen to love God more and more. Through my decision, God is able to gift me with the grace to do so. This then gives me the option of asking for more, and so I do. And it times, it is tempting not to, seeing some of the great suffering that have come through some of my choices to love God more in a society that is moving more as a whole to reject Him.

Think of it this way, there is a large warehouse of graces for each and every person in heaven. Some of the graces are automatic (delivered right to us on a schedule), others we have to request (order them) and sometimes do other things prior to be able to receive them (opening a locked door, so that we can get to them, untying a knot to unwrap them, etc.). The saints worked at emptying their warehouses. Other warehouses go mostly untouched through the denial of God and/or the denial of his ways (such as failure to love your neighbor).
 
Nonsense. God can overpower any man anytime.
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The only limits on God are His nature and how He limits Himself.

For example, in His nature, God is Love and Truth. He cannot be deny Himself these aspects.

He has given us free will, and in doing so God has limited Himself from forcing His will on us.
 
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